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Can a Tyranid Prime outflank if it joins a unit that is able to outflank due to the hive commander rule?

No because he cannot outflank without having infiltrate or scout.

While he does become part of the unit he does not gain the benefit of any of their special rules (see page 48).

This really sounds like it should be in YMDC rather then proposed rules.

Tri wrote:No because he cannot outflank without having infiltrate or scout.

While he does become part of the unit he does not gain the benefit of any of their special rules (see page 48).

The Troops unit doesn't have Scout or Infiltrate either, but they can outflank because Hive commander says so.

A Tyranid Prime joins as 'a normal member of that unit' by the IC rules, before deployment and reserve declaration, so they should be able to.
Then again, it's Tyranids- so the answer is most likely 'no'.

forkbanger wrote:

Tri wrote:No because he cannot outflank without having infiltrate or scout.

While he does become part of the unit he does not gain the benefit of any of their special rules (see page 48).

The Troops unit doesn't have Scout or Infiltrate either, but they can outflank because Hive commander says so.

A Tyranid Prime joins as 'a normal member of that unit' by the IC rules, before deployment and reserve declaration, so they should be able to.
Then again, it's Tyranids- so the answer is most likely 'no'.

Yes but the troop do have the outflank rule ... on page 48 it clearly says that the units special rules do not effect the independent character (or the other way round) unless they state they do. What you end up with is one model in the unit that cannot outflank ....

The Hive Commander says to do the outflanking. An Independent Character joins as a member of that unit. The USR's don't apply to this at all. The only interactions are the Hive Tyrant's rule and the Independent Character rule. So they should be able to, but again as Forkbanger said you can just wait for the next Space Marine FAQ to come out and say 'oh by the way, "No"

SumYungGui wrote:The Hive Commander says to do the outflanking. An Independent Character joins as a member of that unit. The USR's don't apply to this at all. The only interactions are the Hive Tyrant's rule and the Independent Character rule. So they should be able to, but again as Forkbanger said you can just wait for the next Space Marine FAQ to come out and say 'oh by the way, "No"

... ah and thats where the confusions come. The rules about special rules on page 48 do not talk about universal special rules ... just special rules.

Special Rules
When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit...

without its own means of outflanking it cannot outflank (which is why I mentioned the scout and infiltrate)

Tri wrote:The rules about special rules on page 48 do not talk about universal special rules ... just special rules.

The special rules they talk about are those universal special rules.

Besides, there isn't an 'Outflank' special rule to be lost, and none of the models in the unit need to have Scout or Infiltrate.

forkbanger wrote:

Tri wrote:The rules about special rules on page 48 do not talk about universal special rules ... just special rules.

The special rules they talk about are those universal special rules. It includes any non-standard rules.

Besides, there isn't an 'Outflank' special rule to be lost, and none of the models in the unit need to have Scout or Infiltrate.

? where does it say USR? it doesn't just special rules.

If outflank is not a special rule then it must something that all units can do ... but it isn't; normally a unit need Scout or Infiltrate to get this special rule, in this case a unit of troop has it. Does joining a prime to that unit make it part of that unit? Yes. Is it still a "single unit of troop"? no then it can't have outflank. Even if it could still outflank, the outflank rule does not work on the IC because the IC is not effected by special rules that it does not have, unless the rules list that it does.

Is a Tyranid Prime considered an independent character? I thought the only ones they had were the named ones, like the Swarmlord and Old One Eye...

Prime (IC) joins a Troop unit at start of reserves.

Is that Troop unit still considered a Troop unit when an IC joins it? Yes. We know this because it wouldn't be able to do things such as control objectives if it wasn't.

Now you declare how reserves will be deployed, and the Hive Commander ability kicks in and allows the Troop unit to arrive via Outflank.

The IC is considered a normal part of the Troop unit (special assault circumstances not withstanding) while joined and is now allowed to arrive via Outflank.

That's how it goes down in my gaming circle.

"single troop choice" != "HQ and troop choice"

and it still leaves the prime without a rule to outflank.

But they arent being given a special rule.

Similar to snikrots rule, the hivetyrant allows a unit to outflank.

He Doesnt grant them the special rule OUTFLANK.

So the unit doesnt have OUTFLANK so the prime cant make them lose it.

The Hive Commander specifies "a single unit of Troops" may outflank.

In Dawn of War, if you deploy Tyranid Prime and a unit of Genestealers, you've deployed a unit of troops and an HQ unit. If that same combined unit tries to outflank, it's still going to be a unit of Troops and an HQ unit combined, and that's exceeding the permission given by Hive Commander.

ChocolateGork wrote:But they arent being given a special rule.

Similar to snikrots rule, the hivetyrant allows a unit to outflank.

He Doesnt grant them the special rule OUTFLANK.

So the unit doesnt have OUTFLANK so the prime cant make them lose it.

Snikrots rule lets him and his unit outflank. Now i still don't feel this is enough to allow IC to uses it but it does say him and his unit which could include IC's.

Since you don't agree with it being a special rule lets move on to other problems.

The 'hive commander' rule allows a single unit of troop (which this is not the moment you add a IC but moving on). Why does that matter? Mystic spores can carry a single unit of infantry ...

Q: If a Tyranid unit takes a Mycetic Spore, can an
Independent Character join the brood before
deployment (and hence deep strike in with the brood)?
A: No.

Another way of asking the question 'gork is "What rule is allowing the Prime to outflank?"

Tri wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:But they arent being given a special rule.

Similar to snikrots rule, the hivetyrant allows a unit to outflank.

He Doesnt grant them the special rule OUTFLANK.

So the unit doesnt have OUTFLANK so the prime cant make them lose it.

Snikrots rule lets him and his unit outflank. Now i still don't feel this is enough to allow IC to uses it but it does say him and his unit which could include IC's.

Since you don't agree with it being a special rule lets move on to other problems.

The 'hive commander' rule allows a single unit of troop (which this is not the moment you add a IC but moving on). Why does that matter? Mystic spores can carry a single unit of infantry ...

Q: If a Tyranid unit takes a Mycetic Spore, can an
Independent Character join the brood before
deployment (and hence deep strike in with the brood)?
A: No.

Wouldn't this go right back to the whole thing that the spod is a special rule for the unit that the IC can't benefit from?

Interesting bit of the FAQ since it explicitly says otherwise in the dedicated transport section of the rulebook. So this only screws up the nids, wtf?

Requia wrote:Wouldn't this go right back to the whole thing that the spod is a special rule for the unit that the IC can't benefit from?

Interesting bit of the FAQ since it explicitly says otherwise in the dedicated transport section of the rulebook. So this only screws up the nids, wtf?

Spore doesn't use any of the vehicle rules ... what with it being a monstrous creature ... it has its own rule (transport spore) but yes this does go back to IC not benefiting from a units special rules unless they are specifically mention.

Falling back on the Tyranid FAQ for any kind of precedence is a really, REALLY big mistake. The only guiding principle that can be taken away from that document is 'Screw the Tyranids'. Which is why I say this will eventually be FAQ'd into a 'No' but for the moment I still think it's legal.

Snikrots rule is not a USR its a rule called Ambush, that was the argument people were using to try to AMBUSH Ghazkgull, this was changed in the FAQ. You cannot outflank the prime even if the unit he is in had infiltrate, scout or hive commander.

If the Hive Commander special rule lets a troops choice outflank then the troops can. The prime cannot, he is not a troops choice, he is an independent(sp?) Character and his only connection is joining the squad, at which point the squad consists of a troops and in this case, a HQ. Now does the rule say that a troop and a HQ can outflank? no i believe it doesnt. If it says that they both can then go ahead, if it doesnt then you cannot.

I cant remember how to quote right now, im to tired but i completely agree with Chris, if there isnt a rule saying he can outflank, thne he cannot.

But he doesnt allow one troops CHOICE to outflank he allows a single troop UNIT to outflank

ChocolateGork wrote:But he doesnt allow one troops CHOICE to outflank he allows a single troop UNIT to outflank

Emphasis mine.

Is the Prime selected from the Troops FOC slot?

Ulver wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:But he doesnt allow one troops CHOICE to outflank he allows a single troop UNIT to outflank

Emphasis mine.

Is the Prime selected from the Troops FOC slot?

The counter argument for this would be:

When an IC join a unit, he becomes a part of that unit. If said unit is a troop choice, he is now apart of a unit of troops.

To the best of my knowledge if doesn't state one way or the other in the BRB what an IC considered if you join them to another unit. It just says they become a part of that unit. You can argue its still a HQ or you can argue its part of a troop unit thus the entire unit is a troop.

Aren't space wolves allowed to outflank their wolf scouts with a wolf guard attached who doesn't have anything letting him outflank? Why shouldn't the tyranids be able to do it with an IC?

Cjc1223 wrote:Aren't space wolves allowed to outflank their wolf scouts with a wolf guard attached who doesn't have anything letting him outflank? Why shouldn't the tyranids be able to do it with an IC?

well, because a model that is treated as an upgrade character is different from an IC, perhaps? SW FAQ:


Q. Can a Wolf Scout Pack with a Wolf Guard Pack Leader
assigned to it deploy as Infiltrators, make a move before
the game begins because of its Scouts special rule,
choose to outflank or use Behind Enemy Lines? (p86)
A. Yes, to all of the above, because the Wolf Guard Pack
Leader is not an Independent Character and therefore the
fact he does not have the Infiltrate or Scouts special rule
does not preclude the squad he has joined from using
those abilities.

Q. Can an Independent Character that has joined a Wolf
Scouts pack outflank? (p27)
A. No, unless he has the Saga of the Hunter, or another
special rule, which allows him to outflank.

See the difference?

The tyrant allows the unit to outflank.

The tyrant doesn't grant the unit outflank.

Like snikrot allows his unit to come of any board edge from reserve. His ability lets the unit do that. They dont have a USR to lose to an IC. Thats why ghazgkhull can join them.

It is similar with the gaunts and the prime. They dont gain the special rule outflank. the hive tyrant just lets them complete an action that would otherwise require that USR.

ChocolateGork wrote:The tyrant allows the unit to outflank.

The tyrant doesn't grant the unit outflank.

Like snikrot allows his unit to come of any board edge from reserve. His ability lets the unit do that. They dont have a USR to lose to an IC. Thats why ghazgkhull can join them.

It is similar with the gaunts and the prime. They dont gain the special rule outflank. the hive tyrant just lets them complete an action that would otherwise require that USR.

There Rules that are used by all models though some times modified by other factors, movement, shooting, etc. There are also Special rules that only effect models with them, the most commonly shared of which are included in the USR section of the BGB. Universal means that they are shared by all armies.

Again though some people may say that snikrot rule works it is most definitely a "special rule" and it is debatable whether his unit is inclusive enough to include IC ( I don't but as I said debatable)

Where as a asking for a "single unit of Troop" most certainly is not inclusive enough to include an IC. Out flank is a special rule only available to models with infiltrate, scout and some time as part of their own rules.

Taoofss wrote:

Ulver wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:But he doesnt allow one troops CHOICE to outflank he allows a single troop UNIT to outflank

Emphasis mine.

Is the Prime selected from the Troops FOC slot?

The counter argument for this would be:

When an IC join a unit, he becomes a part of that unit. If said unit is a troop choice, he is now apart of a unit of troops.

To the best of my knowledge if doesn't state one way or the other in the BRB what an IC considered if you join them to another unit. It just says they become a part of that unit. You can argue its still a HQ or you can argue its part of a troop unit thus the entire unit is a troop.

So does that argument work when playing Dawn of War? No, it doesn't. So what makes you thjink it's any good in this instance?
"a single unit of Troops may outflank." If you add the Prime, is the unit now solely a 'single unit of Troops' or is it a unit of Troops with an attached IC? Obviously, it's the latyter, and the rules do not make any allowances for additional models/units beyond the 'single unit of Troops'.

So the answer is still no, you can't do it. .

I don't understand why there is so much talk about IC, there are no independent characters in the tyranids codex the named units like the doom and parasite are unique but not independent.

sorry just found out tyranid prime is ignore my message

Rabid - you're missing that the Prime IS AN IC. It really, truly and utterly IS an IC.

Rabid Dinosaur wrote:I don't understand why there is so much talk about IC, there are no independent characters in the tyranids codex the named units like the doom and parasite are unique but not independent.

sorry just found out tyranid prime is ignore my message

An easy mistake to make about the codex. Don't sweat it. It feels like even GW doesn't want him to be an IC according to the FAQ.