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I was looking at the most recent O & G book and they look pretty good. Cheap and high toughness for Orcs.

Other thread on this site say kaven is a top tier army but claim O & G are low, uncompetitive army.

I was just wondering why people think that. If I compare O & G models point for point with Skaven, the O & G models are just as good if not better. What Skaven have that they don't, O & G have something Skaven don't have.

Is animosity all that bad?

Yes, animosity is pretty bad. Without Animosity, they're often considered to be near the upper middle-tier (I think there's four tiers, and animosity-less Orcs are Tier 2, while Animosity Orcs are Tier 3).

There's also the fact that they're torn apart quickly in hand-to-hand, their Old Lore! style magic, and that their statlines - though good for their price - are just that: Good for their price.

Orcs' main advantage in this edition is that they have one of the greatest anti-magic systems, and that when they hit (note the "when": Orcs have a medium-low WS and only two units have any real form of Hatred) they hit hard at either S4 or S5, usually. Night Goblins also make one of the nastiest blocks at the moment, for their price anyways, being essentially a four-point model with T4 and a 6+ Ward in hand-to-hand.

Orks suffer from being in the middle of the power curve.. Theyre not cheap enough to buy in huge blocks to get steadfast vs enemies that kill them.. and not killy enough to negate steadfast in others

They just cant kill the scary units and dont have the #s to survive very long without breaking and running

Throw lots of dice at Waaagh! is my only real suggestion

Orcs vs Skaven?

Skaven benefit from probably the meanest lores in Warhammer right now. The 13th should lose it's casting number and just go off on miscasts only.

It wouldnt be sooo bad if power scrolls werent so cheap.

And someone else already nailed the orc problems besides animosity. The fact that your elite units are just a little bit better than some armies core units, and you pay a lot to have them.

Night goblins seem to be the bees knees in 8th edition so far, assumining you also tool up for some anti magic and loads of fanatics.

One thing I will say about the O&G ranking is this: they've gotten a lot better with the new edition. Their Miscast table is one of the kindest, and their Big Spell, Waaagh!, easily competes with the new Lores'.

Regular orcs definitely are in the middle of the curve, but Bigguns and Black Orcs are up there in terms of death-dealing.

They can also field 5 stone-thrower type things at even 1000pts, if they really wanted to.

The main problem with O&G is: this army isn't all that tricksy or subtle. You'll see one of three things-
1- a bunch of Night Goblins. Expect to be shot at, magicked at, and then brace for the Fanatics. Beware the Waaagh! spell, too; fanatics can smack into your lines, then Waaagh! right back the other way.
2- a bunch of orcs. I'd guess around three big blocks in horde formation, Black Orcs and Bigguns where they can, with lots of Extra Choppas. Beware the Waaagh! spell. A 10-wide unit of guys who ASF with 2 S5 attacks and that re-roll misses is...well, you're probably dead.
3- some kind of combination of 1 & 2. Usually, if there's orcs, there will be little shooting. But always beware the Waaagh!

Now...Skaven. They've got the best tarpit unit in the game, assuming it's near a BSB/general; slaves are absurdly cheap, and can be shot through to get to your guys with no concern at all. That's one point.

The Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace offers units that are Unbreakable. And that's all there is to that.

Warlock Engineers are the cheapest characters in the game. You'll probably see them in Slave units (for Ld8), in weapon team units (for some extra wounds vs. shooting), all alone with the Doom Rocket or Brass Orb (45-65pts to net easily 4 times that), and, oh yes, as Wizards. Some times.

Skaven magic (items and spells) are efficient and versatile, where the O&G ones are usually quite funny, and many are very good, but don't see a lot of use.

The Hellpit Abomination is the stuff of nightmares. People grab the Rune of Fire or the Banner of Eternal Flame to defend themselves against Hydras and A-bombs. And there's a good reason for that. There is very little in the O&G book that can stand against one of these fellows. A big unit of Orcs or a few turns of Goblin shooting would bring it down, but at a terrible cost.

All in all, the Skaven book compliments itself more. The various troops and items and rules work well with each other. The O&G book has some of that, now, but not nearly as much.

Warpsolution wrote:One thing I will say about the O&G ranking is this: they've gotten a lot better with the new edition. Their Miscast table is one of the kindest, and their Big Spell, Waaagh!, easily competes with the new Lores'.

It's kinder... moderately. You're much more likely to lose your Shaman with the OnG miscast table (16% chance of death immediately, with a 2.7 (3%) chance that you'll have to roll on the table again (since 12 does nothing now but "Reroll on Table"), but you're in turn much less likely to have your magic phase shut down or for people other than your Shaman to be killed. Essentially: Safer for da Boyz, more dangerous for da Shaman.

Warpsolution wrote:Regular orcs definitely are in the middle of the curve, but Bigguns and Black Orcs are up there in terms of death-dealing.

The main issues with them really are point cost, mixed with frailty to the Big 'Uns (Who'll probably never have better than a 6+ without a Wizarding Hat Gobbo) and Special-slot for the BOrcs.

Personally, I'd argue Squigs to be a bit higher on the curve, what with essentially being eight points / Squig, and having WS4, S5, A2, immunity to psychology, and Hatred of Dwarves (oh, and I3, which is notable in an OnG army). They're much more frail, but at 8pts a model you can buy 10 BOrcs w/ shields and a Musician at the same price as 15 Squigs and ten Handlers.

Warpsolution wrote:They can also field 5 stone-thrower type things at even 1000pts, if they really wanted to.

Ah yes, the gunline. I've worked it out many times, and the list does wonderfully in math-hammer. The catch is merely getting all the War Machines to run the army (11!). Gunline w/ Slaver (to see over your regular troops) and Night Goblins for your Core (For staying power and fanatics) can be nasty, if it fails against some army types.

A unit of Big Uns or Black Orcs can easily compete with some of "the best" stuff out there.

I did a little Mathhammer earlier today. I don't have time to put all the numbers down (and I doubt you'd want to read 'em), but I figured that a unit of Big Uns or Black Orcs with Extra Choppas can destroy a unit of Sword Masters of equal points-to the man-with the Waaagh! spell. Without it, it takes them two rounds, and they (gasp) lose a bunch of guys.

The strength of the orc horde is that it can hit hard, but it is also remarkably fast, thanks to the myriad forms of the Waaagh!.
Animosity is a problem, but it's not a huge problem. Especially when you're just charging straight forward, so the d6" doesn't screw you over (like it does when you're using Night Goblin Archers who've already released their fanatics into their front arc...)