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Hiya, Dakka

A couple of weeks ago, i posted this exact same thread, hoping to get some useful answers on this very crucial part of the game; Deployment.
- Unfortunately, the answers i got was pretty much what i already knew...

The main question i have in mind is how should deploy accordingly to:
a) Losing the roll-off for who goes first.
b) Deployment strategies regarding different deployment types.
c) Deployment strategies regarding different mission types.

The most obvious choice would be to reserve everything up. But such an action doesn't always fit well into alot of lists.
- Furthermore, i've both had bad experiences from reserving 'nidz, and i don't feel the 'nidz are much suited for Deep Striking either, as their shooting isn't anything to brag about.

I do, however, understand the principles of utilizing psychic powers, cover, FnP, generally thinking ahead etc. - but the current issue is, as said; to understand how to reach to the different scenarios stated above.

One trick I've developed to deal with specific armies is not deep striking the things you have a choice with under the right circumstances (which would automatically rule out our almost-a-drop-pod-but-worse-in-every-single-way). I've had great success with this against other assault armies that want to get in MY face as well. Mostly Dark Eldar and Blood Angels. Hard core assault oriented armies on the table top generally lack the long range firepower to counter, say, two Trygons and a Hive Tyrant all moseying along as best buddies before they assault into your line of gaunts/gants that you were smart enough to bubble wrap with ahead of time. Against these lists them deep striking in at range is of extremely limited usefulness as the range generally isn't going to happen anyway. What is useful is having a 'fist' in the center of your army ready to lash out and just annihilate whatever pack of guys they send in to play 'line breaker'.

If i lose the roll off i tend to stick to these principles:

1) Hold back
2) Stick to cover
3) Wait for my trygon and raveners to arrive and/or my stealers to get stuck in and then, when all hell is breaking loose, charge in with everything

And tyranid shooting is a lot better than a lot of people make it out to be.

Tyranid shooting can be way better than many think. I like to pod a unit of 20 devil gaunts. It annhilates most anything it shoots. 15 wounds on a marines unit gives you 5 failed saves on average. This is about the only unit i would pod aside from perhaps Zoanthroaps.
1. If you loose the roll off I usually deploy everything except my stealers. Those always outflank unless a really good peice of terrain to inflitrate behind exists. I never deepstrike my Trygon. Hes a great fire magnet. so what if he gets shot up. he will anyways and any fire he takes reduces the fire on other beasties.
2. always put a line of gargoyle or termagaunts with no upgrades up front to give cover for the rest of your army. taking Venomthroaps is a waste of points and elite slots. Next up, your shooters so you can get your fire to the enemy as fast as possible. the only exception is spearhead deployment since many times your foe forgets that you can come on anywhere in your long table edge.
3. my list usually has NO TMC. i play a hoard with at least 50% greater numbers than my foe. if they play a elite army i will usually win just on numerical superiority. last game i lost was to space wolves. It was a kill point game and he had only 2 remaining figs on the board. i had way more available KP than he did. but one more round and i would have dropped him.

Venomthropes are only moderately effective against shooting, so yeah don't take them for that. It's not terribly difficult to give yourself 4+ from terrain and other models. They do make it a lot easier to give monstrous creatures cover though.

Where Venomthropes shine like the noon day sun is against other assault armies, like Blood Angels or Dark Eldar. People that want to assault you are going to get screwed up six ways from sunday against Venomthropes. No armor save on the dangerous terrain check means they're down to invul saves on one out of every six models and no feel no pain. And they pay this 'assault tax' every time they charge a gimpy unit of Termagants that you probably spawned for free. Also defensive grenades removing the extra charge attacks. Don't knock a Venomthrope until you've seen this stuff in action.

@SumYungGui
Amassing your MCs is simply devastating - i'm with you on that! A great number of dice from anything - be it dev-units, stealers or whatnot, makes for a hell of an anti-deathstar utility. Alone having my 2x Tervigons roll decently, not having both run dry on 2x 1's or similar, have often made for a great anti-deathstar.

What worries me, however, is what a decent shooty-list is capable of - even before i've had a single chance of throwing around FnP. All in all, my army is at the mercy of whatever cover or LoS-preventing they're able to gain.

@Eldar Own
I have my doubts with that, as ML heavy lists has alot to say.
- Anything is pretty much vulnerable due to absence from FnP.
- Not all your MCs can claim cover saves. Trygons are bound to get shot to bits in the first round. Alternatively, losing a Tervigon heavily reduces the lists survivability throughout the game.
- Shooting takes much priority, if you go 2nd - even with everything on the board, as shooting only needs to be able to spot an elbow from a single model in a unit. And with the above scenario taken into consideration, regarding the Tervigon, you're down to 1 Tervigon, and gotta be much more mindful, when throwing FnP around.

@sennacherib
1. I'm with you in fielding everything except stealers/pod-gaunts/zoans. Having half an army in reserves leaves the rest as easy bait. (You only do that once!)
2. I'm much hesitant about fielding too little MCs in my lists, as a lack of, or alternatively, not enough redundancy, reduces your overall AV capabilities.
3. A screening garg is much perfeered in my lists. I've grown much, much fond of these guys in every aspect! With AG, TS and OA support from a Flyrant, they simply awesome!

venoms are too easy to kill. the tactic using them works once verses a newbie. once they know what they can do they will train there str 8 weapons on them next game.

@mrdabba
Agreed. It's a real shame their T-value is that low. Their support capabilities (easy-kill aside) are simply awesome! :(

Indeed, if Venoms had an ability to keep them alive a little bit longer like having to use nightfighting to shoot at them then they would be soo much more viable as a support unit. Just as it stands now a lot of the support units (like Lictors) are just so lacking it depresses me and I don't even play the army

@Noir
I've actually been pondering about reserving them up. That might just keep them alive long enough for the rest of the army to get off their lazy butts. Well, it's not really that reliable - especially not, if you don't run a +2-reserves list.
- OTOH, they might just end up seeing combat from entering the game, turn 2... Might just be worth a shot, idk...

I hear ya on the Lictors, btw... I simply love those... They just hardly ever have any usefulness in lists.

Eh, poor Lictors, there were a thousand things that GW could have done to them to make sure they didn't collect dust on store shelves. Better reserves support (like being able to choose one reserves unit per turn and decide whether that unit came in or not) Which would make tunneling 10x more effective. Or Better CC support (Any friendly unit involved in an assult with a lictor counts as having assault grenades).

Really, any person on dakka dakka right now could take 30 seconds of their time and come up with a better support rule that isn't overpowered than GW made up.

Back on topic....

Reserving the Venoms, the problem that I see with that is you don't want them to walk on from your table edge because their support range is only 6" and they can't outflank on their own. So are you willing to spend the extra points to drop-pod them 2nd-3rd turn?

I've got quite a lot to say on the matter. I've been working on nid lists since the book came out and I've tried it all. My take-all-comers tourney list plays from reserve if it doesn't have first turn, but there isn't a single spore pod in it.

First off, you can't really speak generally about the reserve game. Some units can do it, and some can't. As an extension of that, some armies are built holistically so that they can play a reserve game, and some aren't. I always build my armies (of any codex) with a real firm decision being made as to whether or not i full-reserve if I lose first turn. I've found that some codecies just can't do it, or don't need to do it. For instance my IG army will just set right up across from you no matter what. Its got lots of high armor vehicles and lots of cover for them. On the other end you've got something like dark eldar, that just can't afford to play a long game where they don't get first blood.

A good way to determine whether or not your nid army is going to want to deploy or reserve would be to ask this question of it. Is this army going to win through attrition? Or will decisive model placement and a few short and violent CCs decide the game. Nids can make both attrition style lists and reserve lists, so its worth asking. Once you've made that determination, make sure every unit you pick matches that style of play. Some units fit in both styles, but some are certainly 'shock and awe' only.

Since you didn't provide a list, I'll give you two examples, both of them are lists I like to run. One is attrition-style long game, and one is a reserve-able army.

Attrition-style nids

tervigon with catalyst

3x hive guard
3x hive guard
3x venomthropes

tervigon with catalyst
tervigon with catalyst
20x termagants with devourers
20x termagants with devourers

tyrannofex with rupture cannon
tyrannofex with rupture cannon
tyrannofex with rupture cannon

Just two turns in and the model count will be atrociously high. It all just shuffles forward, shooting as it goes. Nothing is easy to kill, there is nothing to shake or stun. its all got cover, charging the screening gants is quite painful, and the nid player doesn't really care if you do charge a gant unit. This is a perfect example of something that I'd set right up against a shooty army with first turn. The only defensive ability I'll be denied is catalyst. But I want a maximum number of turns to make termagants, so that by the end of the game, when my opponent has finally removed all of my ranged threats, he is looking at 90+ termagants, and one or two turns left to kill them.


But I think this list is what you are probably more curious about

Hive tyrant hive commander wings
tervigon catalyst

2x hive guard
2x hive guard
2x hive guard

tervigon catalyst
15x genestealers
15x genestealers
10x termagants

trygon adrenal glands
trygon adrenal glands
trygon adrenal glands


Much more fragile, the trygons are nearly twice as easy to kill as the t-fex, I've got fewer tervigons, the front loaded genestealers, a hive tyrant and no venomthropes. if I manage to win the roll to go first, and its kill points, I'll take it. I'll still probably take first turn on capture and control as well, but seize ground is a toss-up. All this means is that I'm very comfortable playing a full-reserve game with the list.

The trygons all deep strike, but only after I've arrived with my other reserves, as they have their built in deep strike safety. The genestealers outflank (unless we are playing spearhead, in which case the long table edge provides much more controllable envelopment) and one tervigon outflanks with them, thanks to hive commander. The hive guard walk on from the table edge if the arrive on turn 2. That will give them time to get in to position for some important mid-game shots, but here is the cool thing... if they arrive on turn 3 or later, there will be a trygon hole available, and they will be rewarded with a much more aggressive place to arrive from. I have played with this list quite a bit, and there have been many times where hive guard coming out of a trygon hole were a very unwelcome surprise for my opponent. The 10x termagant unit I have can also emerge from that hole, sometimes grabbing an objective in the mid to late game that my opponent wasn't thinking I'd be able to do.

So not every unit has to have an alternate deployment method for you to make a "reserve" army, but you do need a clear plan on how you would operate from reserve.

@Shep
Very informative! That really aided for a good perspective on the reserve-based game.

As for the lack of a list, i guess i was aiming for a more general perspective, and hence left it out for that reason.

However, the list i feel most comfortable with is the following:

HQ:
Flyrant - Dev, OA
Parasite

Elite:
Hive Guard x2
Hive Guard x2

Troops:
Gaunt x10
Gaunt x10
Tervi - (AG, TS, Cata)
Tervi - (AG, TS, Cata)
GS x10 + BL - (naked)

Fast Attack:
Gargoyle x20 - AG/TS

Heavy Support:
Trygon - AG
Trygon - AG

- 2000 -

I've been meaning to add in 20 more gargs, and lose the 'stealers, as the Gargs serves the list much better.
- The list has won me far more games than i've won with it. But most seems due to being a real shark on the roll-off.

I do realise, that the list much contradicts the topic. The list is much build around the swift assault capabilities of the winged models, providing an easy solution to tying up ML's and the alike, aswell as a more immediate threat in terms of target saturation, with the real hammer-units slacking behind, bubble-wrapping the MCs...
However; in terms of losing roll-off, or any of the above-mentioned scenarios, i have my doubts of whether or not the list is capable of pulling through, not being much of an attrition-list.
The answer might just be to fully alter the list in order for it to fit more into either category. I do, however, dislike the idea of trying to do repairs where repairs aren't really needed. And as stated, the list has served me well.

Anyways, thank you very much for the input. That really filled alot of gaps in my knowledge bank. Very much appreciated.

Opponent wants to shoot Str8 + stuff at my Venomthropes? Fine by me I can guarantee they'll get a cover save of 4+ against that because they're not monstrous creatures. Also, I always have a Tyranid prime right in the middle of their string so they can spread out even more and give a HUGE bubble. 10 points for regeneration? T5? Sounds like a winner to me.

As I said though they are not a perfect solution to shooty armies. They have some utility in giving at least a 5+ to hard-to-cover monstrous creatures, which is certainly better than just taking it on the chin and counting off the wounds when that same Str 8 stuff decides to shoot at the monstrous creatures. Either way the big dudes have some more survivability or they spend limited Str 8 stuff not shooting them the first turn or two and shooting Venomthropes instead.

Where they really shine is armies that want to assault into you. Outright killing 1 in 6 dudes that are charging Termagants and then losing one attack on each model is just brutal. I've even managed to make dreadnaughts immobilize themselves charging me, all for the price of some Termagants. Don't knock these guys in a foot-based swarm type army until you try them.

@SumYungGui
Oh, don't get me wrong on the Venomthropes. I'm no less than very fond of the idea, and i've been meaning to include some in a MC-heavy list with dual-Carni'es w/dual-primes.
- The speculation is, however, if it's worth taking up the Elite slot. And the price-tag, while not being THAT much, is still pricy, taken into consideration, that they CAN be ID'ed.

But i more than hear you, when speaking of other assault-armies. Just looking over a scenario of having your MCs bubble wrapped, forcing the ass-units to jump your gaunts, and hence seeing all the nasty force multiplier buffs in effect... It's nasty!