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I am building a space wolf army and I need to understand what lists I will be facing from an IG perspective.

Can someone throw up a standard leaf blower list so I can proxy and shoot at it across the board? It doesn't have to be accurate to the tee, but I need to know what to expect.

Just one thing having space wolves trying to shoot at a leaf blower list is not one of the best thing you can do!

gannam wrote:I am building a space wolf army and I need to understand what lists I will be facing from an IG perspective.

Can someone throw up a standard leaf blower list so I can proxy and shoot at it across the board? It doesn't have to be accurate to the tee, but I need to know what to expect.

Think about 4 to 6 Chimeras with either Plasma or Melta squads, a manticore or two, 3 Hydras, a Medusa or two (subbing for manticores), Master of the Fleet to screw around with your reserves, and 3 Vendettas. All depends on the points value but these all seem to be constants.

necronsftw wrote:Just one thing having space wolves trying to shoot at a leaf blower list is not one of the best thing you can do!

I totally agree with you, but the test here is to see just how long I can last if I was to try and outshoot them from across the table with razorspam, and long fangs.

Courtesy of Mercer:

mercer wrote:Final Entry

Here you go:

Imperial Guard "Manticore Fetish" - 1,850 points

HQ

Company Command Squad w/ Chimera -4 x plasma guns

Troops

Veterans w/ Chimera - 3 x meltaguns
Veterans w/ Chimera - 3 x meltaguns
Veterans w/ Chimera - 3 x meltaguns
Veterans w/ Chimera - 3 x plasma guns
Veterans w/ Chimera - 3 x plasma guns

Fast Attack

Vendetta
Vendetta
Vendetta

Heavy Support

Manticore Missile Launcher
Manticore Missile Launcher
Manticore Missile Launcher

* All tanks with hull heavy flamers

Comes to 1,840 so 10 points to spare

3 manticores rape the longfangs, vendettas eat your razors with 9 TL lascannons. If by some miracle you survive that then multilasers and vets are there to stomp what's left of your corpse intothe ashes that were once your hopes of victory .

That is the idea of the leafblower list; attempt to table them by turn 2 or at least control the board by then. Razorspam goes down, DoA gets a tough time, battlewagons get mostly blown, nids spam are blown apart, same with nidzilla. Footdar eaten, mechdar shot down, nearly nothing can stand up to this mean list. Let's hope no 'ard boyz players saw this list.

This is a leaf blower 101!!!

Ok, off to do some mathammer. I will report the results back

Yeah if you try drop pods ands have meltas you have a chance to pop the tanks first turn!

Ok, we went off and rolled some dice. the results were rather shocking. Please forgive the crudity of the simulation. A few things were granted for this purpose

All vehicles got cover saves except for reserve units.
All wolf vehicles got a 5+ cover save, and all IG got a 4+

IG player put all vendetta's in reserve
wolf player put 1 scout unit in reserve.

We considered all units within 48 inches of all other units.
This led to the IG not being able to shoot with any chimera's, and Bjorn not being able to shoot for the wolves until vendetta's arrival.

IG list 2K roughly
3 manticores
7 chimera's. command squad contained master of the fleet.
3 vendettas

wolf list 2K roughly
4 RB's with las/plas
2 dread's w TWas/missile
Bjorn w plasma cannon
15 long fang missile launchers
3 rune priest, one was purley defensive in nature to give cover, the other 2 had Living lighting as primary weapon

Wolf player goes first

Turn 1 wolf

long fang unit 1 manages a weapon destroyed result on manticore 1
long fang unit 2 shakes and immobilizes manticore 2
long fang unit 3 shakes manticore 3

4 RB's whiff on the commander's chimera
2 dread's whiff as well


Turn 1 IG
Everyone is out of range, or shaken, no shooting

Turn 2 wolf

scouts come in, master of the fleet causes them to outflank on right side. WE assume they are destroyed because of chimera spam.
Long fang 1 whiffs as well as RP
Long fang 2 manages a weapon destroyed on manticore 2
long fang 3 whiffs as well as both RP's
Dread 1manages a weapon destroyed on last manticore
all remaining firepower goes into the lead chimera and they manage to immobilize it.

Turn 2 IG
2 vendetta's come in
They manage to immobilized 2 razorbacks

Turn 3 wolves
all firepower goes into the 2 vendetta's on the board.
after shooting an entire turn, the wolves manage to cripple on vendetta and shake the other. both can still fly and drop units on objectives

turn 3 IG
IG has no targets within range. Best they can hope for now is to park on objectives

Turn 4
Gamed called due to lack of firepower on IG side.

WE plan to run the simulation again in the morning having IG player go first.


I do understand that a smart player would not just sit there, but most IG players I see sit on the objectives. I think I could have pushed for a draw in this game quite easily considering an objective based game, and a kill point mission would have went hands down in the wolves favor.

What am I missing for the IG player's tactices? It seemed too easy.

I'm sorry, not quite entirely sure what you've done here... Have you literally just imagined where everything is and rolled some dice? That's not going to work very well.

Excuse my ignorance, I don't play with manticores (or any artillery) and I don't have the codex with me but:

1) Can't the manticores hide behind cover and still fire indirectly, negating the long fangs?

2) What on earth are the other 6 chimeras full of melta and plasma vets doing amongst all this math-hammer?

And Disty covered the massive problem with your mathhammer in two sentences. I've got one more.

You won't be able to shoot the manticores, change that with your simulation.

On turn 2 start losing entire squads to melta and plasma as they have gotten close enough to shoot you at that point even if you hug the back of the board.

And my addition, the Vendetta's would not be reserved. They have the scouts rule, which means they will just go 18-24 inches before the first turn giving them a 4+ cover save. So you might get one but the other two are lighting you up from turn 1.

Hey look you can try and outshoot IG but it's only going to happen if one of two things occur:

1) IG player just brings an outright bad army
2) IG player has some of the worst luck ever. Manticores miss, only fire one missile every time, plasma cooks a couple of IG every turn, Vendetta's miss with all their lascannons...etc.

Your army is a HTH or combination type of army. IG players don't try assault armies because there are tons of armies that are better at it. Same holds true for a purely shooting SW army, you've got some good shooting units but you have to balance them out with some HTH.

Why didn't the Manticores fire first turn? There's no reason why they shouldn't be shooting as they can stay hidden because they're ordnance barrage.

Assumptions and mathhammer will leave you wanting the moment you set up against an army like the one provided by Mercer. You can reliably say you'll lose 2 Long Fang units per turn between the Manticores and the Vendettas will be bagging 3 Razorbacks a turn as well.

Going toe to toe with Leafblowers is nigh suicide, unless you can do the following:

1) Have a high liklihood of going first
2) Guarantee that your first turn shooting will neutralize at least half of your opponents firepower.

Wolves can do it, but to do so sacrifices the ability to face certain builds which handicaps you.

Why wasn't there a chimera wall giving the manticores a 3+ they should have been firing away!

we assumed that everyone was 48 inches away and both armies were turtling. that is why the chimera's were not firing.

The only reason that the manticore's didn't destroy me, was because I shook or stunned them by going first.

I plan on running the simulation today again with the IG player going first, and the vendetta's not reserving.

Again, I don't have any intention of sitting back and trying to outshoot an IG army, but if a scenario like kill points forces you to, I think its a valid exercise to see how it plays out.


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necronsftw wrote:Why wasn't there a chimera wall giving the manticores a 3+ they should have been firing away!

Are you assuming that the manticore's had cammo netting? I didn't add that piece of wargear. If that is standard for a good army then I will add it

My point is how can you stun them when they should be hidden! You cannot shoot what you cannot see!

I also see it's a simulation, well that "report" counts for nothing. Try playing the game to see the results.

mercer wrote:My point is how can you stun them when they should be hidden! You cannot shoot what you cannot see!

I also see it's a simulation, well that "report" counts for nothing. Try playing the game to see the results.

You have a very valid point sir, but as is often the case in a tournament game there is rarely enough terrain to fully obscure 3 tanks, much less anything else.

I do, however, concede that they should have been granted a 3+ cover save, this would have, I think, changed the match considerably. I will run the wolves going first with scouts in reserve, and IG going first with all vendetta's on the table.

I do have a question though, as an IG player what would be your highest target priority? In this case I chose the razorbacks since they contained all the scoring units and seemed the right unit to pop, would you instead target the long fangs?

You can put them in a triangle formation to give each cover save.

3+ cover? Should be 4+ cover from the tanks in front.

Depends what you're up against. You want to tackle whatever is a threat to you first i.e Long Fangs.

Ok, we ran another simulation, this time with IG going first. manticores getting 3+ cover saves and vendetta's starting on the board getting within a 36 inch range immediatly.

Turn 1 IG
Manticore 1 gets one missile off on LF's: 3 die including the commander RP makes cover save
Manticore 2 gets one missile off on LF 2: 4 die including commander, RP makes cover save, squad passes leadership test
Manticore 3 gets 3 missiles @ LF 3: 15 hits, LF's got to ground to survive, 4 die anyway, the rest fail leadership and run off the board
Vendetta 1@ RB 1: shakes it
Vendetta 2@ RB 2: wreckes it
Vendetta 3@ RB 3: whiffs

Turn 1 Wolves
LF 1@V1: whiffs. RP manages to wreck the vendetta with living lightning (lucky shot)
LF 2@V2: whiffs. RP stuns V2 with living lightning
RB 3 and 4@V2: blows it up with lascannons
Dreads whiff on manticore with 3 shots left
Bjorn whiffs with plasma gun on remaining stunned vendetta

Turn 2 IG
all 3 manticores cannot kill a single RB due to cover saves. They are all out of missiles now.

AT this point, I would assume that all chimera's would be in range for a turn 3 slugfest

Turn 2 wolves
scouts don't come in
all Long remaining long fangs whiff on taking out the remaining vendetta
3 razorbacks manage to blow up the remaining vendetta

We called it at this point because we felt that the odds were now fairly even. 20 marines and dreads against 35 vets with chimera's.

Thoughts, is that typical of how a manticore does? I didn't see anything where the long fangs wouldn't get a cover save assuming that they were in area terrain.

Wait wait wait. Turn 2 the Manticores are running out of missiles?!?! My friend you are playing that exrtemely wrong. When a Manticore fires each individual missile puts of d3 blast templates. It does not fire 3 missiles. One missile did a cluster bomb thingy and became 3 warheads. Was this against an actual IG player, or was this more mathhammer?

And called it in your favor? 20 Marines with a couple dreadnoughts against melta/plasma spam Guard vets? I woul personally take that, and say I could beat you with those units.

You definitely need to actually play with a real IG player, as to be honest, I don't think you can succesfully mathhammer a full game like this..

Oh god this gets worse.
No offence but have you even read the codex?

The Manticore fires one missile per turn, each missile carries multiple warheads hence the D3 Blasts. It can only run out of missiles after four turns of firing.

As for the chimeras.. Am I missing something?

1) I thought the list being run had 6 of them with mixed plasma and melta, and there was nothing mentioned in your new mathhammer about any being destroyed so how comes there are only 35 vets as the end?

2) How big is this table again? I'm not sure how Chimera's can only start to damage by turn 3.

Try doing it in vassal. If you have a copy of the guard codex the basic strategy should be pretty apparent. Have one of your friends take over the list that you're simming against, then switch.

The fastest way to get a relatively comprehensive glimpse of the strengths and weaknesses of an army is to play as the army in question.

There is no way to mathhammer a full army game... yet. You can't take into account terrain, movement, distance, stress, LOS, etc with mere mathhammer. Mathhammer is best used for comparing the effectiveness of one unit over another versus specific targets.

Called the game on turn 2 cause you think the field is even? Makes no sense at all. ChrisWWII is right, the manitcores fire one missile per turn, that missile breaks into D3 cluster munitions. Manticores still have 2 shots left each.

And now the melta/plasma vets are in range for a full assault, and you think thats a good time for the IG player to give up??

Just a thought, but wouldn't it be far, far easier to proxy the armies using...paper cups or something, rather than an imagined 'simulation'?

As ChrisWWII stated, you also played the Manticores wrong. Not only do they fire D3 blasts per missile (not, as you noted, D3 missiles per shot) but the RBs shouldn't have gotten cover from the barrage either.

I recommend you actually play some proper games, and stop assuming things, and you might find yourself rather surprised when you eventually do face off against an IG army proper.

L. Wrex

gannam wrote:Ok, we ran another simulation, this time with IG going first. manticores getting 3+ cover saves and vendetta's starting on the board getting within a 36 inch range immediatly.

Turn 1 IG
Manticore 1 gets one missile off on LF's: 3 die including the commander RP makes cover save
Manticore 2 gets one missile off on LF 2: 4 die including commander, RP makes cover save, squad passes leadership test
Manticore 3 gets 3 missiles @ LF 3: 15 hits, LF's got to ground to survive, 4 die anyway, the rest fail leadership and run off the board
Vendetta 1@ RB 1: shakes it
Vendetta 2@ RB 2: wreckes it
Vendetta 3@ RB 3: whiffs

Turn 1 Wolves
LF 1@V1: whiffs. RP manages to wreck the vendetta with living lightning (lucky shot)
LF 2@V2: whiffs. RP stuns V2 with living lightning
RB 3 and 4@V2: blows it up with lascannons
Dreads whiff on manticore with 3 shots left
Bjorn whiffs with plasma gun on remaining stunned vendetta

Turn 2 IG
all 3 manticores cannot kill a single RB due to cover saves. They are all out of missiles now.

AT this point, I would assume that all chimera's would be in range for a turn 3 slugfest

Turn 2 wolves
scouts don't come in
all Long remaining long fangs whiff on taking out the remaining vendetta
3 razorbacks manage to blow up the remaining vendetta

We called it at this point because we felt that the odds were now fairly even. 20 marines and dreads against 35 vets with chimera's.

Thoughts, is that typical of how a manticore does? I didn't see anything where the long fangs wouldn't get a cover save assuming that they were in area terrain.

1) The above changes to how manticores actually fire, 1 missile splits into d3, it can always fire 4 times.
2) Your RB's and models dont get coversaves from indirect firing ordnance. The only way is to actually be inside of area terrain, and this is not possible for vehicles as it's true los for them. For vehicles it will always hit the side armor, or if it's a partial hit, on the armor facing in the direction of the hole.
3) Remember to do the partial hits. From a manticore on AV10/11 (razorback side or back) it can hurt. They also roll 2d6 and take the highest like all ordnance.
4) You won't be able to shoot the manticores, they'll be hidden. If they arent totally obscured, they'll be behind chimeras, sine you cant see the facing you're shooting at, they'llget a 3+ cover save rather than a 4+.

Again, you need to actually proxy this out to even get close to the real results, if even with an entirely proxied guard army on the other side of the table.

Math hammer is pointless. Warhammer 40k is meant to be for having fun.

LOUIE.ROCKETFINGERS wrote:Math hammer is pointless. Warhammer 40k is meant to be for having fun.

You assume that your definition of fun is the same as everyone else's, and that anyone who doesn't adhere to your definition of fun therefore isn't having any.

Ok, thanks for the manticore pointers. I was a bit confused there. I really haven't faced them much except for once in ard boys. I am used to facing medusa spam.

SO just to clarify, the LF's would get cover saves being in area terrain, but the RB's would not.

Just to make sure I also understand, would a razorback not get a cover save if a Rune priest casts storm caller?

Sorry about my IG ignorance as well, I live in an area where there are not many IG players. lots of marine spam. When I do face them, I usually have problems with the unit rulees as you can plainly see.



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Lord PoPo wrote:

LOUIE.ROCKETFINGERS wrote:Math hammer is pointless. Warhammer 40k is meant to be for having fun.

You assume that your definition of fun is the same as everyone else's, and that anyone who doesn't adhere to your definition of fun therefore isn't having any.

I find math hammer to be quite entertaining since I am trapped in my house today with no other gamers to practice against. I even enjoy getting raped on the forums for my ignorance to IG rules

gannam wrote:Ok, thanks for the manticore pointers. I was a bit confused there. I really haven't faced them much except for once in ard boys. I am used to facing medusa spam.

SO just to clarify, the LF's would get cover saves being in area terrain, but the RB's would not.

Just to make sure I also understand, would a razorback not get a cover save if a Rune priest casts storm caller?

Sorry about my IG ignorance as well, I live in an area where there are not many IG players. lots of marine spam. When I do face them, I usually have problems with the unit rulees as you can plainly see.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord PoPo wrote:

LOUIE.ROCKETFINGERS wrote:Math hammer is pointless. Warhammer 40k is meant to be for having fun.

You assume that your definition of fun is the same as everyone else's, and that anyone who doesn't adhere to your definition of fun therefore isn't having any.

I find math hammer to be quite entertaining since I am trapped in my house today with no other gamers to practice against. I even enjoy getting raped on the forums for my ignorance to IG rules

Things like smoke launchers and the stormcaller and shield of sanguinus psychic powers would still grant you a cover save for your razorback.

LOUIE.ROCKETFINGERS wrote:Math hammer is pointless. Warhammer 40k is meant to be for having fun.

In other news....

The lottery is a tax for people who aren't good at math.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gannam wrote:Ok, thanks for the manticore pointers. I was a bit confused there. I really haven't faced them much except for once in ard boys. I am used to facing medusa spam.

SO just to clarify, the LF's would get cover saves being in area terrain, but the RB's would not.

That is correct. If you read how barrage works, you measure cover from the center of the blast. Its hard to get cover that way for vehicles.

Area terrain works vs. the manticore, so the LF get their cover save -- which is still less than their armor save of 3+

STR 10, AP 4 ordnance barrages are really designed to take out tanks and light infantry. It excels at those tasks.