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Hey there, Dakka. I've been messing around with the idea of making my own little SM Legion. (I don't actually plan on playing them, though I may paint up a few models, just for giggles.) So I came here looking for some ideas. I don't want this to be a Codex

Anyways, I've always wondered what it is about SM codexes that are Assault or Close Combat based, when wars are more often won through ranged supremacy than close combat. So here's my thought: Rather than make another damn Ultramarines successor chapter, why not make a full blown lost Legion? I'm still working on how the fluff is going to work out, but it goes something like this: They come from a fairly high gravity world, making them stronger and slower. Therefore, they can't make the lightning fast advances required by the likes of the Blood Angels or similar chapters. So, they rely more on ranged weapons; specifically heavy weapons. Having practiced this art for centuries, they became great at steady, impossible to halt lines of fire, overwhelming in firepower.

Now, for the Lost Legion part: They take the place of the Lost Legion XI, first to leave the Imperium of Man (disagreeing with the practice of conquering every star system they come into contact with), but still fighting for the greater good of humanity, leaving a century prior to the Horus Heresy. This means they have a lot of Mk IV Maximus Armor, as well as Umbra, Ferrox and Phobos pattern bolters. After a century and a half of leaving the Imperium, the legion, now fleet based, left to explore the far eastern fringes of the galaxy. The entirety of the legion was lost in the warp for over seven millennia before reappearing just eastward of the center of the galaxy in M38.

So there's that. I've come up with a few special rules for the army, just to set a basic theme, and a few ideas for all of the units.


Legion Special Rules:

Fearless: All members of the Juggernauts of Carvedek Legion, after centuries of hardship and perils, are Fearless.

Slow and Steady: The juggernauts are not known for being ferocious berserkers or space Vikings, no, they are known for turning out overwhelming firepower. If a unit has moved 3” or less, they may fire any number of heavy weapons as though they hadn’t moved that turn.

Unbreakable Tank Column: The Juggernauts chapter employs the use of many powerful tanks from the early days of the Imperium. These all count as having the Extra Armour wargear option, and get +1 to their front armor (to a maximum of 14). They may not move flat out, because they are carrying so much extra weight.

(Not a special rule: ) All of the base stats of the Juggernauts will have -1 I and +1 strength to characterize their physical differences from other space marines. They'd also have a higher number of heavy weapons in basic infantry squads.


So if anyone has any ideas for units, weapons, or criticisms, I'd be happy to hear it. I also have a profile for a Primarch in the works, since he hasn't had any reason to die yet. I thought I'd mess with the concept.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Primarch Rules: EDIT #1 It occured to me there should be a negative effect when he dies, being an enormous loss. I'm adding an ethereal-esque ability to him for death.

Veredon the Brute,
Primarch of the Juggernauts of Carvedek

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv Pts: 750?
8 7 7 5(7) 6 5 5 10 2+/3++

Unit Type: Infantry

Wargear:
Two Master Crafted Thunder Hammers, The Javelins of Veredon, The Stone Mantle

The Javelins of Veredon:
Counts as two wrist-mounted Master Crafted Assault Cannons with the following profile:
Range: Strength: AP: Type:
24” 6 3 Heavy 4, Rending

The Stone Mantle:
Counts as Terminator Armor that grants an additional 3+ Invulnerable save and +2 to toughness (already in profile)


Special Rules:
Eternal Warrior, Fearless, Primarch of the Juggernauts, Dauntless Aura, Overwhelming Firepower, Independent Character

EDITED: Primarch of the Juggernauts: Verdas may take a retinue of (special terminator squad with awesome wargear), and all wounds against Verdas may be allocated to them. If he is killed or removed from the battlefield (by force weapons or similar abilities,) All Juggernauts of Cavedek lose (morale special rules), get -2 (or -1?) Ld, and must take a morale check at the beginning of every turn. In addition, he may only be taken in an army worth 2500 points or more (himself included)

Dauntless Aura: All friendly units within D6+18” of Veredon may use his leadership for morale tests.

Overwhelming Firepower: All heavy weapons within 16” of Veredon have Pinning

I'm not even sure your Primarch would be slightly acceptable in game terms even thought you dont plan on playing them, lol. When are you going to post some pictures, this looks set to be a good thread.

IMHO they seem far too overpowered. I don't want to sound overly critical or anything, but they really do seem far too powerful.

They are all fearless (therefore dauntless aura has no effect), have a mini-relentless, have +1 strength (powerfists = mandatory), better firepower and all tanks have better armour and free EA?

For base stats, this seems to me to be far too much. The idea of growing up on a gravity-heavy planet sounds like a really neat idea, however I don't see why it should have all these effects. Chapter tactics of relentless or something would be far more suitable IMHO.

You also haven't stated how some things work; for example, how does Slow and Steady work in regards to transport movement?

I'm also unsure as to your Primarch; rules for Primarchs and the Emperor are very rarely successful from my observations, so although they are popular, they're always on tricky ground as it were as they are so difficult to get from fluff into game.

As far as I can tell, he seems to be a huge 'beatstick' as it were. His stats are very impressive, with toughness 7, 6 wounds and 2+3++, he'll be tricky to take down. Add to that his twin-assault cannons and twin thunder hammers and he'll be dishing out lots of pain.
But then again, he doesn't really confer much to the rest of the army and actually only strikes at initiative one. If he simply had Power Weapons I reckon he'd be much more powerful.

I think 750pts may actually be too much considering. Something like 600pts may be more accurate, but as I said, it's very difficult to gauge such things with Primarchs.


Personally, I like the idea (particularly low gravity), the names and stuff, but I think the execution has missed the mark IMHO.


Btw, most Space Marine armies seem to focus on firepower btw, Assault Termies seem to be their only real close combat unit worth taking. Which Codex does this use btw?

In a lot of respects, I've been thinking the same thing. What I usually do is start out flavorful, bring in some ideas, then balance it out. I agree, a lot of this is way OP. That said, I'm wondering how you'd do something like this. I figure that low gravity would make people more dense and slower (according to science and all).

Let me explain some of my reasoning for these abilities: This is supposed to be a legion. I don't want them to have chapter tactics, or And They Shall Know No Fear or anything like that, because this was before Guilliman decided to force the Codex: Astartes on all of the Legions. So, (and keep in mind, this is literally my first draft and as far as I know there aren't any other long range Space Marine spinoffs for me to use as guidance,) I went to Fearless to cover for that.

Now, I've wanted to confer a 'slower, steady, more powerful' feel to them, rather than a fast and furious sort of close combat codex, like we've been seeing for so long (obviously), Slow and Purposeful isn't very steady, which means that I'll have somewhat erratic movements, 1" this turn, 5" the next turn, 3" the next turn, etc. So I'd like to see something more consistent. I understand completely why they do that from a design perspective, but the idea came to me in a sort of random thought I had, 'What if they were like a turtle with guns?' I suppose I could try knocking it down to 2", but long range heavy weapons have to keep up with the mechanization, the jump packs and the skimmers somehow.

As for the vehicles, I'm not actually sure I want there to be a lot of transports (except for big, heavy Landraiders and very, very reinforced Rhinos) I'd like to see an army that's effective and based in infantry. The whole point of this is to turn the current theme upside down. Vehicles are probably going to be more expensive i.e., the abilities discussed above will be added to the price. It won't be free, they'll just HAVE to come with the bonuses.

The Primarch was sort of a just-for-s**ts thing. I like him, though, and I assume you have to take his value against that of a FW Apoc Greater Daemon, since they have similar point values (how does he stack up to An'ggrath, a bloodthirster that costs 888 pts and can have infinite attacks if you keep rolling sixes?)

So, I'm wondering if you have any suggestions, Dave. Now that I've explained my position more, how would you change these issues? I didn't come here specifically for critique, I also came here for ideas, suggestions, even if they're 'scrap it and play BA!!!'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@crimson fist: I've always had the AoBR set, but until recently I haven't gotten around to painting them. I'm going to paint the SM up in this style (mind, I've never actually painted anything before. I'm a really poor high school student... Don't judge me!)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah, Paint scheme. Tan with gold trim, a white stripe across the head, red weapons (hilts, bodies, fists, guns), and red cloths. Coming from pre-heresy times and effectively being a renegade chapter without the 'BAWWW' B.S., they don't wear the Aquila very often, but they may have salvaged a few pairs of Mk 7 (so my AOBR marines have an excuse) and they don't wear purity seals (unless they're permanently affixed to the armor, so my AOBR marines have an excuse.)

So, in regards to rules again, I was thinking about the tactical squad and how I would represent there being more Heavy Weapons, and I'm considering changing out the 'take one heavy weapon and one special weapon' with 'take one heavy weapon and another heavy weapon and your sergeant can take a heavy weapon for a bit more instead of more assault stuff.'