heavy 2, blast

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**olympia**

This question came up the other night. Let us say you are firing a cyclone missile launcher. You place the blast marker and resolve the scatter. Then you decide you want to place the second shot somewhere else (but targeting the same unit). Is this allowed?

**nosferatu1001**

Yes, perfectly fine. Targetting is on a unit basis (step 1), placing the blast markers is another step and no requirement is made for this to be in the same place

**Ulver**

The only stipulation I can remember (can't quote from rulebook atm) is that the blast marker must cover as many models in the unit as possible. I.e. if the first marker covered 4 models (as the maximum possible), and you could place it another way that it covers 4 models then that is fine; if the second placement only allowed it to cover 2 or 3 models, then no.

Unless I've got that confused with template weapons.

**insaniak**

Yeah, Ulver, you're thinking of Template weapons.

There is no requirement for Blasts to cover as many models as possible.

**-Nazdreg-**

But what about measuring the range?

I have a unit that is partially in range. Lets say I have an attractive place maybe out of range and an unattractive place in range.

My procedure is:

targetted unit is clearly in range, but I want the first shot in the critical area and find out that it is out of range. So it automatically misses.
But now I have a good idea where the range border is, so I can place the second shot with much less risk.
But am I able to place the second shot at all?

**nosferatu1001**

Yes, you can place it. Only the first blast missed, as long as you place the next blast such that it is in range initially you are fine.

Bearing in mind you DO measure to the unit in general *before* placing ANY blasts (note whcih step of shooting - roll to hit - blasts replace, and note this is after Check Range) so you would have a very very good idea which parts of the unit were out of range before placing any blasts.

**-Nazdreg-**

you DO measure to the unit in general *before* placing ANY blasts (note whcih step of shooting - roll to hit - blasts replace, and note this is after Check Range)

This is interesting. So if I have a blast weapon, I can measure to any model in the target unit before shooting at all?
I understood measuring to the unit in general means measuring to the closest model. (I was talking about a quite artificial situation of a unit spread out, just to make the possibility clear)
But you are right "check range" means you measure range to the target before deciding where to place the template, so there is a less risk anyways.

**yakface**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, you can place it. Only the first blast missed, as long as you place the next blast such that it is in range initially you are fine.

Bearing in mind you DO measure to the unit in general *before* placing ANY blasts (note whcih step of shooting - roll to hit - blasts replace, and note this is after Check Range) so you would have a very very good idea which parts of the unit were out of range before placing any blasts.

Unless you're firing *only* blast weapons (stupid grotzookas being out of range all the time...grumble, grumble).

But yeah, I realize I've been unintentionally handicapping myself when firing grotzookas since I've essentially been 'declaring' where all my shots will go before I place any of the blasts. I will immediately start placing one blast first and then move on from there as the rules dictate (as it is definitely better for me).

Ah, knowledge!

**nosferatu1001**

Nazdreg - no, you can only measure to the closest model, as that is how you measure ranges (page 3? cant recall)

Yak - yep, most people place the blast THEN check range to the blast, without having first checked range to the unit.

THis can handicap yourself quite significantly, as by measuring to the front of a unit that normally means you only have about 6" to worry about (distance across an average sized spread out unit) not distance to unit + 6". Far easier to make sure you dont place that blast just out of range!

**time wizard**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yak - yep, most people place the blast THEN check range to the blast, without having first checked range to the unit.

Okay, now I'm confused.
The rules for blast weapons on page 30 says when you fire a blast weapon you;
first pick one visible enemy model
then place the blast marker with the hole over the base or hull of the model
then measure range to the hole in the center of the marker.

Where does it say to measure range to the enemy unit first?

**nosferatu1001**

Reread the second paragraph, page 30, under "BLAST"

Note it states "do not roll to hit"

If you cross reference back to page 15, note that "Roll to hit" is step 3, after step 2 "Check Range"

So you must check range FIRST, then follow the rules for blast.

**time wizard**

So then I've been playing it wrong as well.
Thanks!

**nosferatu1001**

Dont worry, it's one of the most commonly misplayed rules I've seen. Probably because its quite cumbersome.

WIth long range ordnance like basilisks it makes practically no difference, its quite useful with shorter onces like Vindicators.

**-Nazdreg-**

no, you can only measure to the closest model, as that is how you measure ranges

OK then I got it right.

**time wizard**

nosferatu1001 wrote:WIth long range ordnance like basilisks it makes practically no difference, its quite useful with shorter onces like Vindicators.

Yes, would have made a difference in a number of my games where the spot I placed the marker was less than 1" out of range!
If I had measured range to the unit first I would have placed the marker differently and been able to make the shot.

**don_mondo**

yakface wrote:I've essentially been 'declaring' where all my shots will go before I place any of the blasts.

I do this as well, but doubt I'll stop.

**puma713**

don_mondo wrote:
yakface wrote:I've essentially been 'declaring' where all my shots will go before I place any of the blasts.

I do this as well, but doubt I'll stop.

Agreed. I have trouble following a rule that is not written explicitly, in a rulebook where everything is supposed to be taken explicitly, by cross-referencing another rule that you're not told to cross-reference.

**somerandomdude**

time wizard wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:WIth long range ordnance like basilisks it makes practically no difference, its quite useful with shorter onces like Vindicators.

Yes, would have made a difference in a number of my games where the spot I placed the marker was less than 1" out of range!
If I had measured range to the unit first I would have placed the marker differently and been able to make the shot.

Keep in mind you can't just choose to measure the range, you have to actually have a reason to. A vindicator on its own won't be able to measure before placing the blast marker, unless it had a Storm Bolter that it also wanted to fire.

EDIT: Although, I still don't believe this is right. When exactly do you declare where the blast is placed? Does it have a specific time, or is it simply after you choose a target? If it simply happens after you choose the target, then I don't see how you can measure the range for all other shots before you place the marker, as those two things would happen at the same time. I'm trying to understand this rule discussion as best I can while my rulebook is an hour away, so my apologies.

**ToBeWilly**

I always go with specific rules over general rules. In the rules for Blast weapons it tells you specifically how to go about it, which then over rules the general rules for shooting. Sorry, I just can't agree with this.

**insaniak**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Reread the second paragraph, page 30, under "BLAST"

Note it states "do not roll to hit"

If you cross reference back to page 15, note that "Roll to hit" is step 3, after step 2 "Check Range"

So you must check range FIRST, then follow the rules for blast.

I'm not convinced, frankly. Although I should admit my thinking may be a little foggy, due to a late night and being still on my first coffee of the morning.

Yes, it tells you not to roll to hit. That doesn't mean that what comes after that statement takes place at that specific point when you would normally roll to hit... It outlines a completely different process for determining hits.

The Blast rules as outlined require you to:
Choose a target
Place the Blast Marker
Check that the hole in the centre of the marker is in range.
Roll for scatter.

If you claim that this process takes place instead of the 'Roll to Hit' step specifically, rather than just replacing the normal target selection process as a whole, what you wind up with is the following:
Choose a target
Check range to the unit
Place the Blast Marker
Check range again, this time to determine that the centre of the marker is in range.
Roll for scatter.

While that second process admittedly would fit in better with the rules where the unit is also firing non-blast weapons, it seems to be adding in an extra step that us not in keeping with the mainly unit-based ethos of 5th edition. Going on the principle that a unit is in range of something if the closest model is in range, the second range check should be unnecessary (if the unit is in range, you should be able to just place the blast anywhere on the unit)... yet is specifically required by the Blast rules. Which leads me to the conclusion that the Blast process is supposed to be considered outside the normal process, rather than nestled in the middle of it.

Just checking the range once is also less pointlessly complicated, regardless of whether or not it's actually what the rules are saying to do.

**ToBeWilly**

insaniak wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:Reread the second paragraph, page 30, under "BLAST"

Note it states "do not roll to hit"

If you cross reference back to page 15, note that "Roll to hit" is step 3, after step 2 "Check Range"

So you must check range FIRST, then follow the rules for blast.

I'm not convinced, frankly. Although I should admit my thinking may be a little foggy, due to a late night and being still on my first coffee of the morning.

Yes, it tells you not to roll to hit. That doesn't mean that what comes after that statement takes place instead takes place at that specific point when you would normally roll to hit... It outlines a completely different process for determining hits.

The Blast rules as outlined require you to:
Choose a target
Place the Blast Marker
Check that the hole in the centre of the marker is in range.
Roll for scatter.

If you claim that this process takes place instead of the 'Roll to Hit' step specifically, rather than just replacing the normal target selection process as a whole, what you wind up with is the following:
Choose a target
Check range to the unit
Place the Blast Marker
Check range again, this time to determine that the centre of the marker is in range.
Roll for scatter.

While that second process admittedly would fit in better with the rules where the unit is also firing non-blast weapons, it seems to be adding in an extra step that us not in keeping with the mainly unit-based ethos of 5th edition. Going on the principle that a unit is in range of something if the closest model is in range, the second range check should be unnecessary (if the unit is in range, you should be able to just place the blast anywhere on the unit)... yet is specifically required by the Blast rules. Which leads me to the conclusion that the Blast process is supposed to be considered outside the normal process, rather than nestled in the middle of it.

Just checking the range once is also less pointlessly complicated, regardless of whether or not it's actually what the rules are saying to do.

This, yes! Wish I could have said it as eloquently. Have not the skill.

**Mannahnin**

I'm with Insaniak.

I resolve the blast markers from my unit of Havocs firing their 4 MLs as frag sequentially, but I don't pre-measure to the unit before placing the first one. I believe Nos' interpretation is counter to the intent of the rule.

**nosferatu1001**

How is it counter?

You are replacing the "roll to hit" step, which is step 3, with a different process to determine what models are hit.

This wasnt how it was performed in 4th ed, but that doesnt mean it is against "intent"

**yakface**

Whether its technically correct or not, I'm not going to measure range before placing the first blast in a unit that's made up entirely of blast weapons because I've done it before as a general habit of measuring range and some people believe its wrong. I don't think people will buy the argument even if its right or if they do, it will still leave a sour taste in their mouthes (IMHO, of course).

So no pre-measuring my first blast for me. But the change I WILL start doing is to place the first blast and then measure range (instead of declaring ahead of time where all my blasts will be aimed) because I do think that is really solidly in the rules and no one can fault me for that (I believe). So my first blast will be kind of a 'ranging shot' for the rest of my blasts.

**puma713**

yakface wrote:

So no pre-measuring my first blast for me. But the change I WILL start doing is to place the first blast and then measure range (instead of declaring ahead of time where all my blasts will be aimed) because I do think that is really solidly in the rules and no one can fault me for that (I believe). So my first blast will be kind of a 'ranging shot' for the rest of my blasts.

I think a lot of people (if not most) do this already Yak. At least in my experience.

**Mahtamori**

The rules on page 30 does not explicitly state anywhere to skip any specific step in the box on page 15, rather it is a complete re-write of steps 2 and 3, with 3 simply being the least compatible step.
Note how the rules on page 30 also dictates, in sequence, how to measure range as well. Additionally supporting this argument is that the rules for multiple blast weapon unit is supposed to fire blast weapons first, hinting that pre-measuring with normal weapons should be prohibited as well.

**nosferatu1001**

Except it doesnt replace step 2 - it only tells you to replace "roll to hit"
The fact it adds in an additional measurement does not in any way shape or form override the measurement performed at step 2.

**ToBeWilly**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except it doesnt replace step 2 - it only tells you to replace "roll to hit"
The fact it adds in an additional measurement does not in any way shape or form override the measurement performed at step 2.

So, you want me to:

Check Line of Sight & Pick a Target

Check Range

Pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the blast marker...

Check if the shot has landed on target. If the... beyond the weapon's maximum range...

If the target is in range...Roll the scatter dice and 2D6..

So you want me to do everything twice?

**nosferatu1001**

No, you are doing one thing twice. And, technically, NOT the same thing - as you measure first to the nearest model, and secondly to the actualy placement of the marker, which are unlikely to be the same place

Not "everything"

Hyperbole is not necessary, seriously....

You also dont HAVE to do step 2, if you really dont want to - all it does it help your opponent. As has been discusses.

If you have a rules argument against it - go for it. There hasnt yet been one that has been presented.

**DogOfWar**

At the risk of being torn apart, I have to disagree with Nosferatu.

I think the rules for blast weapons on page 30 are intended to describe exactly what happens when firing a blast weapon and there is no cross-reference necessary.

"When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit..." -- while somewhat out of sequence, I think it was placed at the beginning to emphasize the difference between blast and regular shooting.

1) "Pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the blast marker" (paragraph 2)
2) "Check if the shot has landed on target." (paragraph 3)
3) Roll for scatter (paragraph 4)
4) "Once the final position is determined... all models... are hit" (paragraph 8)
5) "Once the number of hits inflicted... the firer rolls to wound as normal..." (paragraph 9)

This sequence covers LOS, picking targets, checking range, determining 'hits', and rolling to wound. Referring back to pg15 you find that you've accomplished steps 1-4, in order, and now would perform steps 5 and 6: "Taking saving throws" and "Remove Causalties" (respectively).

But if everyone seems to agree that it's actually RAW to measure twice, then I would accept it. However, I agree that it would probably leave a 'sour taste' in the mouth of some players as it definitely seems fishy to me.

To each their own.

DoW