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Hey people

Just a quick question. When one has more Bastions than the other, then he can roll a D6 and on a 4+ he can give one unit a Universal Special Rule.
Can a unit of i.e. 6 Tyranid Warriors take the Eternal Warrior rule? Eternal Warrior USR talks about models not units, and almost everywhere, the
eternal warrior USR applies to ICs

Thanx


Automatically Appended Next Post:
:( Noone likes my question

if the unit is granted a USR(via any method); then the whole unit gains said USR.

Most USRs are on a per-model basis.

The only USR I can think of that grants unit-wide bonuses from 1 model having it is stealth; all others are either model-by-model, or completely ineffective unless the whole unit has it.

Examples of model-by-model:
Relentless
feel no pain
Eternal warrior
Furious charge
Preferred enemy
Tank hunters
Skilled rider


Ineffective:
Stubborn(we do not know how to handle partial stubborn units)
Fearless(we do not know how to handle partial fearless units)
Counter-attack(the USR itself says the whole unit needs it; or at least it only deals with the assumption that the whole unit has it)
Fleet(if you have some models that are not fleet they will prevent your unit from assaulting if you run)
Hit and run(whole unit must have it to use it)
Infiltrate(whole unit must have it to use it)
move through cover(You must move at the speed of the slowest model so you never get to use the ability)
Night vision/acute senses(the rule assumes the whole unit has the ability)
Rage(the rule assumes the whole unit has the ability)
Swarms(the rule assumes the whole unit has the ability)
Vulnerable to blasts/templates(the rule assumes the whole unit has the ability)

Conferred(at least effectively):
Slow and purposeful
Stealth

Woah great answer!!! Thanks mate ! That solved the query !

About the buildings in planetary empires: they are kind of designed to give the one already in the lead most of the advantage. You find this balanced and good? I dont like the thought of buildings not giving any kind of bonus just because the opponent has more buildings. These rules work out for you guys?
A friend of mine found an expanded Planetary Empire campaings called Sige of Exodus Prime with more neutral bonuses (the building compleatly "reimagined"), and we are currently trying those rules. Seems like a lot more fun.

Kommissar Kel wrote:if the unit is granted a USR(via any method); then the whole unit gains said USR.

Most USRs are on a per-model basis.

The only USR I can think of that grants unit-wide bonuses from 1 model having it is stealth; all others are either model-by-model, or completely ineffective unless the whole unit has it.

Examples of model-by-model:
Relentless
feel no pain
Eternal warrior
Furious charge
Preferred enemy
Tank hunters
Skilled rider
Stubborn

Ineffective:
Fearless(we do not know how to handle partial fearless units)
Counter-attack(the USR itself says the whole unit needs it; or at least it only deals with the assumption that the whole unit has it)
Fleet(if you have some models that are not fleet they will prevent your unit from assaulting if you run)
Hit and run(whole unit must have it to use it)
Infiltrate(whole unit must have it to use it)
move through cover(You must move at the speed of the slowest model so you never get to use the ability)
Night vision/acute senses(the rule assumes the whole unit has the ability)
Rage(the rule assumes the whole unit has the ability)
Swarms(the rule assumes the whole unit has the ability)
Vulnerable to blasts/templates(the rule assumes the whole unit has the ability)

Conferred(at least effectively):
Slow and purposeful
Stealth

Fearless works that if a unit is fearless and an IC w/o it joins them, the IC is fearless. But if a fearless IC joins a non-fearless unit, then it is lost (if memory serves, otherwise it's always conferred). Swarms is conferred. Vulnerable to blasts is conferred. Those last two state explicitly in the rule book that they are conferable, not that they assume the whole unit has it.

1 Fearless model in a unit that is not fearless(as in 1 member of the unit is fearless , not an IC) has no rules. The fearless rule assume that the entire unit either is, or isn't fearless; none of the USRs that I mentioned as ineffective(or questionable)handle a single model within the unit having the ability while the rest of the unit does not(or vice versa).

The ones you mentioned(aside from fearless) still do not have rules concerning ICs with/without the rules joining units that don't/do; Vulnerable to Blasts/templates, an Swarms do not confer(although the Stealth from swarms effectively does).

Kommissar Kel wrote:1 Fearless model in a unit that is not fearless(as in 1 member of the unit is fearless , not an IC) has no rules. The fearless rule assume that the entire unit either is, or isn't fearless; none of the USRs that I mentioned as ineffective(or questionable)handle a single model within the unit having the ability while the rest of the unit does not(or vice versa).

The ones you mentioned(aside from fearless) still do not have rules concerning ICs with/without the rules joining units that don't/do; Vulnerable to Blasts/templates, an Swarms do not confer(although the Stealth from swarms effectively does).

I see what you're saying about fearless.

As for the others, yes they totally do confer as they have the notifier in the rule book stating such. I believe it is the little asterisk that signifies what is conferred. I remember looking this up specifically for a lord joining a scarab squad and that is when I noticed that both swarms and vulnerable to blasts/templates was gained by the IC when joining. Which also means that tomb spyders gain that same deficit when creating scarab swarms.

The little asterisk signifies that IC lose the USRs when Joining units that lack them, or the unit that has them loses them when the IC that lacks them joins.

Most USRs without the asterisk are model-by-model, or conferred.

Kommissar Kel wrote:The little asterisk signifies that IC lose the USRs when Joining units that lack them, or the unit that has them loses them when the IC that lacks them joins.

Most USRs without the asterisk are model-by-model, or conferred.

Yes, you are correct. I finally remembered to look in my book, and neither swarms nor vulnerable to blasts/templates has the asterisk which would lead to believe they are both confered to an IC when joined. The next question would be, does the tomb spyder also gain this deficit/bonus when creating a scarab swarm?

Ok so where does this leaves the Eternal Warrior rule? Can a whole unit take it?

In the situation where the unit receives a USR(however that occurs); then yes the unit can take EW(that was the answer I gave at the beginning of the list btw).

Kevin: not having an Asterisk does not mean that the IC gains the rule(nor the unit in the case that the IC has it and they do not), it just means that the rule is not nullified by a portion of IC+Unit not having it.

ICs do not gain swarms when joining units with that rule(but do benefit from the Stealth +1 to cover saves; but that is from the stealth rule itself). They do not suffer from vulnerable to Blast/templates either.

Just a note on Kommissar Kel nice list. Night vision/acute senses works if only one model has it. Character confer it to units and units to Characters; also if the model/s has night-vision he can choose to re-roll the spotting distance and since the spotting distance is for the whole unit every one benefit.

night vision is another one of those goofy things where it does transfer to ICs(and vice versa); but in the question of a single model within the unit having/not having it(and not being an IC) we do not know how to handle it. The Rule assumes all members of the unit have it, and therefore is worded models with it, use it; then the test is for the entire unit(not 1 test per model).

This is why I put it into "ineffective".

Kommissar Kel wrote:night vision is another one of those goofy things where it does transfer to ICs(and vice versa); but in the question of a single model within the unit having/not having it(and not being an IC) we do not know how to handle it. The Rule assumes all members of the unit have it, and therefore is worded models with it, use it; then the test is for the entire unit(not 1 test per model).

This is why I put it into "ineffective".

... just checked and realised what the argument was. It's not IC its Characters; characters include upgrade character. A model with a nightvision in a unit without would be an upgrade character and so confer it to the unit.

Again not necessarily; it would all depend on the manner of endowment.

A sgt(or equivalent) with an Acute Senses purchase option, would confer the rule to the unit.

A purchase option that places the rule on a random trooper would not(these are not characters)

Finally a Special rule that allows the endowment of 1 model with the rule does not confer the rule to the others within the unit unless the model so endowed was the Sgt(or equivalent).

SW & HW Troopers are not Upgrade characters, nor are most other unit upgrades.

Pantso wrote:Ok so where does this leaves the Eternal Warrior rule? Can a whole unit take it?

No, eternal warrior specifies model, not unit like the previous mentioned.


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Kommissar Kel wrote:In the situation where the unit receives a USR(however that occurs); then yes the unit can take EW(that was the answer I gave at the beginning of the list btw).

Kevin: not having an Asterisk does not mean that the IC gains the rule(nor the unit in the case that the IC has it and they do not), it just means that the rule is not nullified by a portion of IC+Unit not having it.

ICs do not gain swarms when joining units with that rule(but do benefit from the Stealth +1 to cover saves; but that is from the stealth rule itself). They do not suffer from vulnerable to Blast/templates either.

See, I actually disagree with your stealth ruling because swarms, while gaining the benefit of stealth, do not actually have the stealth rule. So, as many have said in other similar situations, you can not have your cake and eat it too. If swarms is, as you say, not conferable then neither is the benefit of swarms and swarms =/= stealth even though it says the benefit from the rule it is still not the same as having stealth.

You may want to re-check the Swarms rule agian: all swarms have the 'Stealth' and 'vulnerable from blasts/templates' special rules. BRB pg 76.

Swarms does not confer, nor does Vulnerable from blasts/templates; but Stealth does provide the benefits(while not actually conferring).

The Stealth providing benefits is in the main rulebook FAQ;

Q: If only some of the models in a unit have the Stealth
special rule, does the whole unit benefit from the +1 cover
save? (p76)
A: Yes. In effect the ones with the Stealth special rule
ensure their colleagues also find good places to hide.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Again not necessarily; it would all depend on the manner of endowment.

A sgt(or equivalent) with an Acute Senses purchase option, would confer the rule to the unit.

A purchase option that places the rule on a random trooper would not(these are not characters)

Finally a Special rule that allows the endowment of 1 model with the rule does not confer the rule to the others within the unit unless the model so endowed was the Sgt(or equivalent).

SW & HW Troopers are not Upgrade characters, nor are most other unit upgrades.

Personally i don't think it could come up. Sgt and special characters are the only way to get these sort of upgrades without buying them for the whole squad. It would require some weird combo unit. Thankfully were these have come up GW just blanket gives the unit night vision (see beast-masters).

Tri wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Again not necessarily; it would all depend on the manner of endowment.

A sgt(or equivalent) with an Acute Senses purchase option, would confer the rule to the unit.

A purchase option that places the rule on a random trooper would not(these are not characters)

Finally a Special rule that allows the endowment of 1 model with the rule does not confer the rule to the others within the unit unless the model so endowed was the Sgt(or equivalent).

SW & HW Troopers are not Upgrade characters, nor are most other unit upgrades.

Personally i don't think it could come up. Sgt and special characters are the only way to get these sort of upgrades without buying them for the whole squad. It would require some weird combo unit. Thankfully were these have come up GW just blanket gives the unit night vision (see beast-masters).

I agree, but the possibility exists(even though it is not exactly a plausibility), and we all know GW...

Also, while that statement is contradictory...

Kommissar Kel wrote:You may want to re-check the Swarms rule agian: all swarms have the 'Stealth' and 'vulnerable from blasts/templates' special rules. BRB pg 76.

Swarms does not confer, nor does Vulnerable from blasts/templates; but Stealth does provide the benefits(while not actually conferring).

The Stealth providing benefits is in the main rulebook FAQ;

Q: If only some of the models in a unit have the Stealth
special rule, does the whole unit benefit from the +1 cover
save? (p76)
A: Yes. In effect the ones with the Stealth special rule
ensure their colleagues also find good places to hide.

I've looked at the swarms rule and while they may benefit from it, they do NOT have "stealth" in the profile, they have swarms. So how can a unit benefit from a USR that grants another USR when the original USR is not-conferable (according to you)? Why didn't GW just simplify it and give them stealth and vulnerable to blasts/templates in their profile instead of Swarms? Because then stealth WOULD confer to a joining IC or other models, but swarms does not so they can't benefit from stealth.

Kevin949 wrote:I've looked at the swarms rule and while they may benefit from it, they do NOT have "stealth" in the profile, they have swarms. So how can a unit benefit from a USR that grants another USR when the original USR is not-conferable (according to you)? Why didn't GW just simplify it and give them stealth and vulnerable to blasts/templates in their profile instead of Swarms? Because then stealth WOULD confer to a joining IC or other models, but swarms does not so they can't benefit from stealth.

stealth never confers but any model with it boosts the units cover save by 1. Doesn't matter how or why a model has it that's what stealth does.

Kevin949 wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:You may want to re-check the Swarms rule agian: all swarms have the 'Stealth' and 'vulnerable from blasts/templates' special rules. BRB pg 76.

Swarms does not confer, nor does Vulnerable from blasts/templates; but Stealth does provide the benefits(while not actually conferring).

The Stealth providing benefits is in the main rulebook FAQ;

Q: If only some of the models in a unit have the Stealth
special rule, does the whole unit benefit from the +1 cover
save? (p76)
A: Yes. In effect the ones with the Stealth special rule
ensure their colleagues also find good places to hide.

I've looked at the swarms rule and while they may benefit from it, they do NOT have "stealth" in the profile, they have swarms. So how can a unit benefit from a USR that grants another USR when the original USR is not-conferable (according to you)? Why didn't GW just simplify it and give them stealth and vulnerable to blasts/templates in their profile instead of Swarms? Because then stealth WOULD confer to a joining IC or other models, but swarms does not so they can't benefit from stealth.

Kevin: I quoted the entry from the rulebook; models with the Swarms USR also Have both Vulnerable to blasts/templates and Stealth. The rule does not statew that they Benefit, nor Suffer it says that the Have it.

Swarms does a little more than also give the model 2 other USRs it also makes them useless for granting cover saves to Vehicles and MCs