Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Been having this discussion amongst ourselves for a bit, and would like another opinion or two.

If some ork boyz were to complete a sweeping advance on a band of necrons, killing them all, can they regenerate?

No, they may not make a WBB roll.

ALL the models in the unit, including those that were down awaiting WBB, are removed.

Have a look at Sweeping Advance, not it says you cannot save the unit unless your rule specifically overrides SA, and note WBB does NOT specifically override WBB

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, they may not make a WBB roll.

ALL the models in the unit, including those that were down awaiting WBB, are removed.

Have a look at Sweeping Advance, not it says you cannot save the unit unless your rule specifically overrides SA, and note WBB does NOT specifically override WBB

Thanks for that,

What about the Ressurection Orbs, are they able to bring back necrons that were killed in a SA?

SA finishes the unit. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. It's the biggest weakness of the cron dex at the moment when taken in consideration with their overall crappy initiative. If you SA them, they are gone and there is nothing they can do about it.

No special rule can save them. So no Orb, no WBB, the unit is gone.

Unfortunately, you can't... But if I get assaulted, I pray that they kill all my models in assault so that there is no sweeping advance
No, but seriously, that is the biggest reason why all competitive cron lists have minimal no. of warrior squads (2x10)... It just doesn't worth it paying so much pts for something that can be sweeping advanced by 5-man squad with power weapon

Right, well that is clear!

Thank you guys!

It should be noted that with all of their units having Ld of 10, they don't fail morale very often!

Well in theory yes, but in practice it's whole other story... You still have penalty for each death you lost assault by.. And 10 warriors don't hit back much

True enough. I've played against Necron players who did a good job keeping me out of cc assaults, and against others who let me get in too close.
I've managed to SA Necron units a few times, but it doesn't happen as often as some would have you believe.
I'm starting to put together a DE force.
Might just change the number of SA that I can get against my regular Necron opponent!

Well, the whole point of playing good crons is to stay away from cc... Because in shootout, they are pretty tough and you can hardly take them out... But in cc it's matter of luck... Sometimes you'll never be able to sweep them, and sometimes you'll have np doing that

Agreed, comes down to strategy and tactics, just like a war type game!

I thought the Crons that were down would get to make WBB rolls and join another unit (assuming another unit is near enough) as once down they are no longer considered part of the unit for any game purposes?

Nope, because you remove entire unit (with downed models) from the game
And they do still count as part of that unit until wbb roll would be made...

And they do still count as part of that unit until wbb roll would be made...

Not that I'm a Necron player but doesn't the WBB rule state the exact opposite of this by saying they don't count as part of the unit for any game purposes?

I'm happy to be proven wrong here I'm no expert of Necrons.

EDIT: END OF DISCUSSION

So I did indeed have time to go back and look through the 4th edition rules and re-read some of the older threads on this issue.
Normally I say its always safe that Codex trumps BRB unless there would be a good reason for it to be the other way.

In 4th edition the BRB specifically stated WBB may not be used against SA. Because the rules I quoted, "Damaged Necrons may always be ignored for game purposes", is a sub-rule within the WBB special rule. The BRB would most certainly trump the Codex in this specific instance.

In 5th edition they may have gotten rid of the sentence stating WBB specifically, however, they still mention that no Special Rule what-so-ever may be used against it unless that special rule specifically mentions SA.

So although WBB would allow you to normally ignore ALL game events and may be used as a general rule that trumps ALL other BRB events. This specific event can't be avoided because SA specifically tells you that all special rules are disallowed.

So in General, damaged Necrons may ignore ALL in game events, SA though, is just one of those events that says to ignore all special rules in your codex.

FlingitNow wrote:I thought the Crons that were down would get to make WBB rolls and join another unit (assuming another unit is near enough) as once down they are no longer considered part of the unit for any game purposes?

Yet another vague rule in the Necron codex that I have seen go both ways. In the Necron Codex (which I do not have on me currently but will in a bit so I will quote the codex later if someone does not do so for me). Anyways, In the Necron Codex all downed Necron models only count as debris and are not part of any unit. According to the codex they are basically ignored for all game purposes except for determining whether or not they may make a WBB roll in the following turn.

According to the wording in the codex it certainly reads that you would treat Downed Necrons as debri only, the living necrons in the unit being SA would be removed from play and if another unit was within 6" those downed Necrons could make their WBB and join that other unit.

I think the question came up of whether or not you treat "downed" Necrons as part of their original unit when GW released this in the Necron FAQ:

Q. If a unit of Necrons falls back after taking
casualties, how best to keep track of whether
they are effected by a resurrection orb or not?
A. A Necron unit falls back, having been beaten in
close combat by a unit with power weapons.
However, there is a resurrection orb nearby. To
keep things simple, when the casualties are
suffered, assess whether they are in range of the
resurrection orb. If they are, lay them down and
move them with the unit. If they are not in range
of the resurrection orb, remove them entirely.
You will then know how many WBB rolls to make
at the start of your next turn. The same logic
applies if the Necrons

Now why would GW say to move downed Necrons with the unit they were in if we are not to treat them as being part of the unit? Of course it is also to be considered that this is not a ruling on SA but instead a ruling on resurrection orbs. According to the rules though you check whether or not Necrons are within range of a resurrection orb the second they are killed so I believe the intent of this ruling was to make it easier to distinct that the Necrons that "were" in range of the orb when they were downed to be moved with the unit to make things easier for the players. Not necessarily treat downed Necrons as part of the unit they were in when they were alive for all game purposes.

Oh no! Not again!
Sorry FlingitNow, nothing personal.
This topic has been done to death, a search will turn up many threads on WBB vs Sweeping Advance.
I'll see if I can find one or two of them and post some links here for you.
Basic answer is that WBB does not save the Necron unit from SA.
Maybe in the new Necron Codex WBB will be re-written to specify it disallows SA (like the Space Marine ATSKNF) but for the present it does not.

Basic answer is that WBB does not save the Necron unit from SA.

Whos saying it does? However the downed Necron models that are not part of any unit surely could be saved?

I've done a search and literally nothing on the subject came up (which is frankly bizarre). 8 topics came up and none of them had anything to do with WBB vs Sweeping Advance (all just referenced that as another endless argument).

time wizard wrote:
Basic answer is that WBB does not save the Necron unit from SA.

He wasn't asking if WBB saves you from a SA, it doesn't and not a single Necron player would say otherwise.
The question was whether "downed Necrons" are still a part of the unit they were in when that unit gets SA

And to Amend my first post here is the codex entry as to why downed Necrons are ignored for SA

Necron Codex: "Any Necron model that is reduced to 0 Wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it is damaged. Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal game purposes such as unit coherency, measuring distances, calculating whether other units can self repair, and so on - they are debris only."

At best you can treat a downed/damaged Necron as cover but nothing else is, straight from the codex

FlingitNow wrote:However the downed Necron models that are not part of any unit surely could be saved?

From the last Necron FAQ:

Q. If a Necron unit teleports through the Monolith’s portal, do the unit’s damaged Necrons get to re-roll their WBB rolls even if they are no longer within 6" of a Necron model of the same type?
A. Yes, as long as they were able to roll in the first place, they get another chance.

{emphasis mine}

Note: "...the unit's damaged Necrons..."
Therefore, the damaged Necrons are clearly still part of that unit until:
They pass WBB and join a different unit or
they are removed after failing all WBB rolls they are capable of making.

Again not a ruling on SA but a ruling on porting Necons through the Monolith. The Codex clearly states that you ignore them for ALL game purposes. The FAQ makes that exception for Resurrection Orbs and Teleportation through the Monolith only.

Yeah that's good enough for me if they are part of the unit for monoliths teleportation they are part of the unit and gone. Thinking about it otherwise the monolith teleport would serve almost no function WBB wise as you'd teleport away the unit and the downed models would be removed as they was no longer a unit to join.

Cheers Timewizard

Noir Eternal wrote:Again not a ruling on SA but a ruling on porting Necons through the Monolith. The Codex clearly states that you ignore them for ALL game purposes. The FAQ makes that exception for Resurrection Orbs and Teleportation through the Monolith only.

And the Necron Codex makes no exception for models awaiting WBB to be exempt from SA.

SA destroys the entire unit.

If the downed models are part of the unit for resuurrection orbs and for porting through the monolith, then they are part of the unit for sweeping advance.
You can't arbitrarily decide when models are or are not part of the unit for your advantage.
There are 2 different areas in the FAQ that back up the fact that downed Necrons are still part of their unit until they fail or are unable to make a WBB roll.

FlingitNow wrote:Yeah that's good enough for me if they are part of the unit for monoliths teleportation they are part of the unit and gone. Thinking about it otherwise the monolith teleport would serve almost no function WBB wise as you'd teleport away the unit and the downed models would be removed as they was no longer a unit to join.

time wizard wrote:
If the downed models are part of the unit for resuurrection orbs and for porting through the monolith, then they are part of the unit for sweeping advance.
You can't arbitrarily decide when models are or are not part of the unit for your advantage.
There are 2 different areas in the FAQ that back up the fact that downed Necrons are still part of their unit until they fail or are unable to make a WBB roll.

I would agree here but there is nothing in the Codex/FAQ that would state that they would be considered anything but debri during a SA. The codex first states they are to be ignored for all game purposes, then the codex and faq gives exceptions to that rule that tells you when they are to be considered part of the unit. Not once does the codex or faq mention SA. Downed Necrons still count as debri during a SA and are ignored according to the codex. I could understand a RAI argument here but definetely not a RAW one unless there is better evidence to indicate that they are to be considered in the unit for all game purposes except for the exceptions listed in the codex and FAQ

I don't think the FAQ is making exceptions but clarifying that the downed Mecrons are still part of the unit and hence can benefit from the Monolith and Res Orb. In fact I don't think it is possible for an FAQ to make exceptions as by definition it can not change rules only clarify them.

FlingitNow wrote:I don't think the FAQ is making exceptions but clarifying that the downed Mecrons are still part of the unit and hence can benefit from the Monolith and Res Orb. In fact I don't think it is possible for an FAQ to make exceptions as by definition it can not change rules only clarify them.

Then the FAQ would say they are part of the unit for all normal game purposes and not just for teleporting through the monolith. The FAQ is making a clarification for teleporting units through the Monolith, not that damaged Necrons are still considered part of the unit for all game purposes. A very big difference. The fact that the Codex clearly says they are ignored for all game purposes is plenty enough for RAW that unless an FAQ ruling says otherwise, thats how they are to be treated for every situation that arises

Noir Eternal wrote: Not once does the codex or faq mention SA.

That's right, they do not.

Now, from the BRB, page 40, under 'Sweeping Advances', 1st bullet point, last sentence: "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."

Does WBB specify that downed Necrons are unaffected by sweeping advance? No. So they are.

I have cited 2 specific cases that reaffirm that downed Necrons are still part of their unit.
Where WBB says that downed Necrons are ignored for "normal game purposes" it gives a few examples. Again, this fails to address the "otherwise specified" save or special rule that exempts them from sweeping advance.
"For them, the battle is over."

Except that I also clearly posted a Codex entry allowing downed Necrons to be ignored for all in game events and to be treated as debris only.

Your trying to tell me I want WBB from a SA, which is not the case. All Necrons that get SA get removed from the table. However, according to the codex, damaged Necrons are ignored for all game purposes. Which SA is part of a standard game action, and is ignored according to the rules. Can you shoot a downed necron? Can you assault one? No, because they are ignored for ALL game purposes.

The two examples you cited where very specific as to how to treat damaged Necrons during a specific instance. What you are trying to do is spread that out to an event that has nothing in common with what the FAQ was trying to answer. Thats just not how RAW works. Unless you can cite something that says to treat them as part of the unit for all normal game events then you can't override the codex rule that says they are to be ignored for all game events.

The FAQ made sure that people wouldn't say downed Necrons where to be ignored while teleporting them through the Monolith. It also allows them to still get their WBB roll after no longer being within 6" of another Necron unit. Nothing more than a clarification for something that was already in the Codex under the Monolith Entry.

The difference is simple.
Downed Necron models are ignored. I'll grant you that.
But the downed models, which can't be shot at, or used for coherency, or used as the same type of Necron for WBB are still part of their original unit. They have to be else they couldn't be proted through the Monolith with their unit.
Now here's the difference.

Sweeping advance does not destroy or remove models, it removes units. Entire units. Including each and every model that is part of that unit.

You can say the Necron Models are debris, that's fine, but if their unit gets removed by a sweeping advance, the trash goes with them.

time wizard wrote:
Sweeping advance does not destroy or remove models, it removes units. Entire units. Including each and every model that is part of that unit.
You can say the Necron Models are debris, that's fine, but if their unit gets removed by a sweeping advance, the trash goes with them.

The FAQ just doesn't clearly state to treat damaged Necrons as part of the unit. Your FAQ post only mentions that a Unit's damaged Necron's may get an additional WBB roll if teleported through the Monolith, not to treat downed Necrons as part of the unit. Which is still quite different. There is nothing in the FAQ nor Codex that states you should treat damaged Necrons as part of the unit while they are down.

Even if they were to be considered part of the unit while they are down they are still to be ignored for all game purposes. So SA says to remove the unit thats fine. I can still ignore it since the Codex says I can ignore all normal game events, which SA is one.