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Given that 8th Edition has been with us now for almost a year now and we're just now starting to get new Official 8th Edition Army Books, I thought it might be fun to start up a series of threads on how to adjust current Army Books for 8th Edition. I figured I'd start off with the army I'm most familiar with - the High Elves.


Theme
* The theme of the High Elf army has always been of Elite and hard hitting, albeit fragile, units. They're supposed to be a fairly well-balanced force that's competitive in every phase of the game.
* They're supposed to be a long-lived, but fading race, so there should be a focus on high damage output, but relatively low damage threshold units.
* Overall, the T3, 5+Save generic should be maintained.
* Focus should still be on Elite units.



Army Special Rules

Speed of Asuryan - This rule always seemed a clumsy one, and one which prompted GW to completely tweak the ASF rules for 8th Edition to include the re-rolls. I think a decent adjustment would be this (not gonna bother with 'flavor text' since I suck at it ):

High Elves (not including mounts) fight in Initiative Order in Close Combat as usual. However, in the event of tied Initiatives, they will strike first (instead of fighting simultaneously). Furthermore, High Elves armed with Great Weapons ignore the 'Always Strikes Last" special rule.

In the event that units with Speed of Asuryan are fighting eachother, attacks will be made simultaneously as usual.

This would be a substantial change to the way that the army has worked since the AB's release in 7th Edition. Obviously, this would have to result in points adjustments throughout the army. Even so, I think it's a nice little boost that's not over-powering and gives them a slight edge over similarly stat'd units. I do like to maintain the idea that High Elves are deft enough to be unencumbered by Great Weapons (or can be said that the weapons are forged so well and balanced that coupled with centuries of training, High Elves are not slowed down by using them). Added the final caveat to resolve the scenario of two HE armies facing off.

Have some other ideas as well, but they're not completely fleshed out yet, so we'll stick with this one for now.


Valour of the Ages
To appease our Drucchi friends, let's let them have their Eternal Hatred against us (the above). However, to make up for this, let's adjust Valour of the Ages to be a bit more useful:

When fighting against Dark Elves, High Elves (not including any mounts) may re-roll any Panic, Fear, Terror or Break tests.

The main edit here is the addition of Break Tests getting re-rolls. While the DE may manage to cause more wounds, the HE can be less likely to break.



Ithilmar Barding
If you played HE during 6th Edition or earlier, you'd remember this rule. I thought it was a nice and characterful rule for the army, and it would be nice to bring it back.

Ithilmar barding adds +1 to the model's armor save like ordinary barding, however, there is no reduction in the movement rate of the model.

A relatively small, but useful extra option. It shouldn't be terribly overpowering given the loss of ASF and the army's inherent issues with attrition.



Lords and Heroes

Overall, I think these guys are pretty ok as is, though with the tweak to Speed of Asuryan, they need a reduction in points. I would also like them to come with Heavy Armor as standard, but it's not something necessary (will ignore for now). Dragon Armor needs to be reduced a point all around to reflect the change from 'immunity to flaming/breath attacks'. I'm going to ignore Dragon Mages for the moment.

My thoughts on new point costs (not 100% sure on these):

Prince - 125 pts
Archmage - 220 pts
Noble - 75 pts
Mage - 90 pts

Barded Elven Steed options would be replaced with Ithilmar Barding (make it the current price for barded elven steed).

The only other major change I would give would be to give all Lords/Heroes +20 or 25 points worth of extra magical equipment allotment (ie. Princes/Archmages may take up to 125 points of magical equipment, Nobles/Mages up to 75pts). Seeing as how they're supposed to be quite a magical and long-lived race, you'd think they'd be able to accumulate more stuff over their lives, so it seems fair to let them take a bit more to the battlefield with them. I don't think this would be a terribly over-powering bonus, and in any event, they'd still have to pay for the items.




Core

Spearelves (sorry, always bugged me with this one) - 8 points/model
I would almost say they should be 7 points/model, but the Speed of Asuryan + Martial Prowess rules make them more than 1pt than their DE equivalents. The 1 point drop I think is manageable.

Archers - 9 points
They're overpriced at 11pts WITH ASF. Still, they're better than Empire Xbowmen, who're already 8pts.

LSG - 12 points
Just save the trouble and have them come with Shields to begin with. That, or just drop them a point with a 1pt option for shields.

Silver Helms - 20 points
Yes, I've moved them back to Core. These guys should be the Light Cav of the High Elf army leaving Dragon Princes as the resident Heavy Cav. The option to buy shields was always silly, I thought, so I would make that base equipment and instead give them the option to get barding (regular) for their horses for 2 pts each (for if you want them to be a bit more resilient).




Special

White Lions - 14 points
Like the DE Sea Dragon Cloaks, let the White Lion Cloaks provide an extra +1 armor save in Close Combat. Maybe have them be Immune to Fear in addition to being Stubborn (reflects that they are known for combating White Lions as initiation).

Swordmasters - 14 points
Give them 'Always Strikes First' special rule. So, pretty much as they are now, only price adjusted to reflect that T3/5+ Sv is still really really vulnerable.

Phoenix Guard - 14 points
Given the fluff, I think it'd make most sense to having these guys Immune to Psychology rather than causing Fear, but that's just a nitpick.

Shadow Warriors - 16 points
Give them BS 5. There's no reason why they have BS 4 while their DE counter-parts have BS 5. Also, a 1 pt option for an additional hand-weapon would make them a more credible threat in HtH.

Dragon Princes - 28 points
Give them Ithilmar Barding instead of regular barding and some special rule like, 'Training by Fire' to have DPs ignore Fear checks caused by units with Flaming attacks (not necessary, but I feel there's something inherently silly about DP horses being scared of fire).

Ellyrian Reavers - 17 points
Have them come with spears and bows as basic equipment. Possibly make them actually quite useful by giving them some rule like, 'Swift Shots' and have them ignore the -1 to Hit penalty for moving. Would probably have to have them at 19-20 points for that, though.

Tiranoc Chariot - 80 points
Most fine as is, though could use a bit of a point-break.

Lion Chariot - 130 points
Mostly fine as is, though could use a bit of a point-break.

In general, I wouldn't mind seeing all the HE Elites with I6 to reflect decades and decades of grueling training, but that's not such an important point.



Rare

Repeater Bolt Thrower - 85/90 points
Without a doubt, this needs to be reduced in points. Not quite sure how much, though.

Great Eagles - 45 points
Probably could stand to be left at 50 pts, though it did lose a lot of its efficacy by 8th allowing people to test for March-blocking and redirecting.



Others/Comments

I'm not going to bother with Magic Items since for the most part, I think the HE armory is pretty decent as it is, though I'm sure a couple of items here and there could be adjusted points-wise. I'd like to think that these thoughts aren't made to make everything over-powered, but I will freely admit that I don't necessarily have the best grasp on how much of an impact certain rules should have. That said, I feel that the way Speed of Asuryan is handled/changed is going to end up being an important factor in the points adjustment of all the units.

I've a slight suspicion that these edits would make the High Elves a lot more like their 6th Edition incarnation, which isn't really a good thing. I think there're enough little rules sprinkled in here and there, though, that'll keep that from being the case.

I'm not quite sure what new units would be worth seeing/adding. In certain respects, it'd be nice to be able to take a single stand-alone Dragon (ie, riderless from the start), though I rather dread the prospect of perpetuating Monster-Hammer.


Would love to get feedback on these ideas/thoughts.

Solid stuff, actually. Maybe a few too many reductions in cost, but maybe not.

Just a two comments:

I wouldn't suggest extra points on magic items for characters, since High Elf magic items are already (supposed to be) cheaper than everyone else's. Whether or not that's the case in 8th I have no idea.

I don't think it'd be that strange to see a dragon on the field. Monsterhammer isn't much of a thing anymore, anyway.

Which ones do you think were too much?

Regarding HE Magic Items - technically, I think it's only the Common Items that have a reduced cost. I wouldn't exactly say that the HE-specific items are particularly cheaper.

Very well thought out and, imho, subtle tweaks. The slight points cost reduction to most things makes sense with the loss of re-rolls to hit due to speed of asuryan being changed.

I really like the DPs horses being immune to fire, and the WL cloaks giving them better armor in combat (although they do threaten to overlap with phoenix guard due to that, and also being immune to fear). I think paticularly for spearelves and archers you've got the points right. For silver helms... is anyone ever going to take them, even at 20 points?

Taking more magic items makes sense with the HE, but threatens to make them even more small/elite than they are now, with more points going into character gear. For magic items, I think it's a good call not to address them here, although obviously banner of sorcerery's cost needs to be upped drastically. And Teclis needs to be deleted from the book entirely or costed about double his current level.

For units- More dragons!! I totally agree it'd be nice to have solo dragons, perhaps a "dragon with handlers" a la the hydra, or some other dragon-themed units. I'm thinking another "aspect" like WL/SM/PG, with an even more crazy anti-fire theme: Dragon Tamers. In combat against any unit with flaming attacks, they make you pay (such as it giving them super-armor-piercing, -2 to armor, as their blades heat up). Shooting them with ranged fire attacks would give them the same ability for 1 round, and they'd have a 2+ save against it (dragon armor). Would be a nice anti-thesis to the current "put banner of eternal flame on every anvil unit" or failing that "large archery unit" trend.

I really like these changes! Outside of Teclis and "We get super special ASF" Swordmasters, I agree the HE book needs some point and unit tweaking to be brought up to speed.

I don't think the LSG need a point drop considering they're great multi-utility Core and can take the Flaming banner on top of it (DE Crossbows can't), though. Not to mention they get nice pretty new models...

Or rather than having a dragon tamer, why not just take Dragons as rare choices? They are, as fluff says, smart enough to act on their own and are loyal enough to the elves to fight without being goaded like a hydra.

Besides that, I like all the changes. Most importantly, the silver helms being droped down to core and the shadow warriors.

Silver hlems need to be core, and have options that make you think just like in the 6th ed book.

Shadow warriors also anoy me. Even if they only had two hand weapons and remaind with the sames stats (that's right BS4 and WS5) I would be happy.

Not to sound harsh...but isn't this just another case of "let's just make the army better!"

In your case, all I see are improvements. Things get better, cheaper, or both. So I would not call this "adjusting" the book, more like powering it up.

I'm not convinced that all the units are overpriced in the current book, so it's hard for me to take your "adjustments" too seriously.

I noticed you left out the "Elite Army" rule. Was that deliberate? If so, seems odd that Dark Elves can take 4 RBTs but High Elves can only take 2.

@Zoned - as I said in my post, a lot of the points adjustments are reflecting the change in the Speed of Asuryan Army-wide Special Rule that I made, which is considerably weaker than what it currently is.

While I'm open to ideas that some of the changes I propose are a bit much, you really aren't offering much constructive feedback on the topic.

Re: Elite Army - I haven't really touched upon very many things, to be honest. For the most part, if I haven't really commented on it, it means I wouldn't really touch it.

Zoned wrote:Not to sound harsh...but isn't this just another case of "let's just make the army better!"

In your case, all I see are improvements. Things get better, cheaper, or both. So I would not call this "adjusting" the book, more like powering it up.

I'm not convinced that all the units are overpriced in the current book, so it's hard for me to take your "adjustments" too seriously.

I noticed you left out the "Elite Army" rule. Was that deliberate? If so, seems odd that Dark Elves can take 4 RBTs but High Elves can only take 2.

So dark elves get twice as many of the worse choice in the two books?
If you drop army wide re-rolls to hit in every round of combat, they are getting worse.
On the other hand, unarmored archers aren't very good with, or without ASF, and I'm not convinced they need a points drop.
Longbow and volley fire is pretty good.


Any ideas for high magic?


-Matt

Not to sound harsh...but isn't this just another case of "let's just make the army better!"

I kind of saw it the other way around.

High Elves (not including mounts) fight in Initiative Order in Close Combat as usual. However, in the event of tied Initiatives, they will strike first (instead of fighting simultaneously). Furthermore, High Elves armed with Great Weapons ignore the 'Always Strikes Last" special rule.

In the event that units with Speed of Asuryan are fighting eachother, attacks will be made simultaneously as usual.

This means the entire army (minus the swordmasters) lose the ability to reroll on their attacks. They will still likely attack first, due to having the high initiative, but this is a huge change in the function of the army. I have no problem with the change per se, as it would then allow GW to tweak the remaining models.

The points reduction I found was too minimial. I'd have to figure out the math on an army list, but I just don't see how losing ASF (the rerolls) would be balanced out by saving 30 points in a 30 man unit. Thats 2 more guys. Against most armies high elves will still be outnumbered, and the loss of the rerolls is a serious blow to the killing power of the army. Getting around Steadfast would be even harder now.

I love the idea of PG being immune to pyschology. It fits the fluff so much more than the fear does. The cloak change for the White Lions is also a great idea. It gives us a decent unit anyway. Still only 4+ save, with T 3 though. Swordmasters pretty much stay the same, minus the 1 point. Dragon Princes are now a bit cheaper, but can be burned down by fire. Decent change, but I am not sure they will be viable even with the change. Silver helms being core again would be a nice change. It would allow high elves to take a cavalry unit in core instead of using up the very important special points. As for the Lords / Heroes... you could come up with some pretty devastating combos at 125 points of magic items, and I think that is why GW limits them.

Overall, I am for the change of the Speed of Asuryan even though its a huge blow to the High Elf army. I just think you haven't given the army enough back to compensate for the loss of those rerolls.

I could be wrong, but I don't think he was taking away the DP's dragon armor, just adding that they wouldn't be afraid of fire (due to being cavalry).

Seems most people are against the extra Magic Item allowances for the Lords/Heroes. Fair enough. I was thinking that some of the crazier items (Book of Hoeth and Banner of Sorcery/Annulian Crystal) would get increased in points as well to account for the higher points allowances and the fact that they seriously affect the phase considerably more than they did in 7th edition. Not a big issue, though.

@Kirbinator - Was hoping to get through most/all the AB's to get them all up to fun but not over-powered levels. Not that these would go into effect or anything, but it's nice to dream .

While the damage output of Swordmasters are great, they still remain incredibly vulnerable to pretty much anything that looks at them - a pretty good compromise it seems, and pretty characteristic of what High Elves should be like, I think.

Teclis....heh. Well, I think everybody agrees he's a bit OTT at the moment, though I attribute that mostly to the new rules for Magic. This guy could probably do with an extra 75-100 points tacked on to him. Honestly, though, I'm mostly disinterested in the Named Characters (being not fond of using them myself). If anyone has ideas on points adjustments for the Special Characters, please feel free to suggest!

LSG, while a versatile Core choice, are just ever so slightly over-priced still, imo. Especially if they lose the ASF re-rolls, their damage output drops quite a bit. I don't think a 1 point reduction would be over-powering. And at least only a single Core unit can take the Flaming Banner.


@Matt - are you suggesting that Archers stay the same price?

Re: High Magic - I actually like the spell-set as is quite a bit. Nice bit of versatility with buffs, hexes and damage spells. Everything could probably ~ +3 to Casting Cost, though. None of it seems particularly over-powering, imo.


@Lehnsherr - Yeah, as I said, I'm still shaky on the points; Playtesting would really be the deciding factor here. The main issue comes from not pricing things to the point where HE's are suddenly a Horde army, though to price them as such would require them all to be significantly more 'kick-ass' in combat and hope to break down the enemy before taking too many casualties. I'm sort of using the Empire army as a base-line for points/stats at the moment (since I think that for the most part, the Empire book is quite nicely balanced), so I've been trying to make sure that nothing in the HE army is cheaper than their human equivalents.

Re: DPs - I didn't intend to remove the 2++ vs. Flaming/Breath attacks from Dragon Armor rules, sorry if that was unclear. Was just adding an additional little rule.



Keep the ideas/suggestions flowing!

My concern with 9 point archers is archer spam. Empire pays 8, and +1 to BS, M, Ld, and 6" more range is worth a lot more than 1 point.

I'd rather see them get better, but stay more expensive.
No -1 for moving might be an option, as that would really set them apart from sea guard. Compared to glade guard, they are 3 points cheaper, lack forest strider, and don't get +1 S at short range. That seems pretty decent to me.



-Matt

Matt, I like where you are headed with that, but I wouldn't want to go with the "no penalty for moving and shooting." That's too similar to the Wood Elves for my liking. Instead, what about no penalty for firing at long range?

I think it would be more of a fit for the army. At 10 points per model, they would be cheaper than the current incantation. Would lose the Speed of Asuryan, but gain the ability to be more accurate with the bow at long ranges.

Ah, apologies for my lack of reader-fu. Didn't realize somehow that they were missing re-rolls.

I actually prefer the way they work right now...I've seen Spearelves in combat and even with re-rolls they have a tough time dealing with anything toughness 4. Making them hit with less attacks (even if they are a little cheaper) means they will be outclassed by many basic core units (Dwarf Warriors, Saurus...)

I like the above comments about keeping the Archer price around the same but add the ignore range penalty.

When I have more time, I'll share my thoughts on your other suggestions now that I see them in the proper context.

Good gaming!

Good stuff! Comparing the empire archers is pretty fair, and that is a lot extra for only a single point. I like the idea of boosting them a bit (although agreed that no penalty for moving and shooting is wood elf territory) and keeping a higher points cost. In fact, that might be worth considering for all of the unit choices, because as they get cheaper, the elite status of the army seems to fade a bit.

I really like the no range mod for archers. It fits with the alpha strike but can't take a punch theme of elves.

It would also put them about on par with their dark brothers... 2 shots at 24" hitting 5's vs 1 shot at 30" hitting on 3's. High elves get more range, dark elves get armor piercing, but numbers of hits run about the same. (and, they'd strike ahead of init 5, giving them a slight edge).

Might as well toss in light armor for free too for the archers. It's not great, but I think it's stupid that a dwindling race with plenty of resources rolls into battle with no armor.

-Matt

@Hawaii and Lehnsherr -

Good points, both. I'd thought about Lehnsherr's No Penalty for Long one as well after you mentioned your idea, Matt.

I suppose then the better philosophy to follow here would be: "Set reasonable point values for units and then add bonuses to to get to a 'more useful' unit".

10 Points for Archers who now have "Keen Sight (or whatever)" - High Elf Archers (let's leave this benefit to just the unit) ignore penalties for shooting at Long Range. I wouldn't be opposed to having them come standard with Light Armor either.


@Zoned -
I know what you mean about Spearelves, though I really think that the HE army could stand to lose the ASF in exchange for some combat buffs. In keeping with the spirit of "a bit more expensive, but deadlier in combat', let's brainstorm the Spearelves:

So, comparing to Empire Swordsmen (who are priced just about right, I think), HE Spears have +1 Ld, +2I and fight in an extra rank. Let's say for the sake of this exercise that we want to aim for 8 pt Spearelves (and maintaining the SoA change). In a unit to unit comparison, the elves would be outnumbered more than 1.5 to 1 (which seems reasonable, fluffwise). Meanwhile, the DE counterparts have the same stats (minus fighting in extra rank) for only a point more over the Empire Swordsmen.

Spearelves serve the same role as Empire Swordsmen in that they're a relatively cheap combat block. In general, they won't be really winning combats, but they should have enough numbers to hold off an average to slightly-above average enemy combat blocks. So at the moment, for 3 more points, Spearelves will usually strike first and hit back with 10-12 more attacks per turn (5-6 more on the charge). Granted, there're diminishing returns as the unit gets less than 4 ranks. Vs other WS3/4, S3 opponents, I think the two are fairly comparable, with Spears dishing out proportionately higher number of attacks on average. However, I'd argue that the Swordsmen gain a significant edge as soon as you start dealing with enemy units that are hitting back with S4+ attacks. In light of this, how about this addition to Martial Prowess rule:

"High Elves armed with spears fight in one rank more than usual. Furthermore, they may benefit from Parry Saves just as if they were armed with shields and hand-weapons"

Gives them a bit of extra survivability in CC.

I like it. At first I was thinking it seemed overpowered. But considering T3... I think it might be alright.

Empire Swordsmen are 6 points.
Spear elves would get the same saves, but have +1 M, +1Ld, +2.5 Init (since they go before init5), and one magic banner, along with fighting in 1 or 2 more ranks.
I think 9 points.
Dark elf version is 7 with a shield, high elf version gets more attacks and a parry, each of those is worth a point (and honestly, the dark version should have to buy the shield and always be 7pts per model).
I'd give the parry to seaguard as well, but keep the Keen Eyes limited to archers.

Next up, Dragon mages. Nice fluffy unit, but too expensive of a hero to hit the table in 8th. Any ideas? I was thinking of the mage being on foot(hero), and the dragon all on it's own as a rare choice (which high elves really need another rare). Add in some sort of channeling rule, Ld test when one of them takes a wound, or the other does as well, then allow the Dragon mage to draw range and LoS from the dragon. Not a huge bonus, but some way to get that little dragon out of the hero allotment, it's too tough to get the wiz and a BSB into smaller games (below 2500).

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:Empire Swordsmen are 6 points.
Spear elves would get the same saves, but have +1 M, +1Ld, +2.5 Init (since they go before init5), and one magic banner, along with fighting in 1 or 2 more ranks.
I think 9 points.
Dark elf version is 7 with a shield, high elf version gets more attacks and a parry, each of those is worth a point (and honestly, the dark version should have to buy the shield and always be 7pts per model).
I'd give the parry to seaguard as well, but keep the Keen Eyes limited to archers.

Gah...So they are. Stupid inability to read things correctly -__-.

1 point extra seems fine to me (and technically amended Martial Prowess, which both Spears and LSG have). Agreed that Keen Eyes should be an archer only rule.

Next up, Dragon mages. Nice fluffy unit, but too expensive of a hero to hit the table in 8th. Any ideas? I was thinking of the mage being on foot(hero), and the dragon all on it's own as a rare choice (which high elves really need another rare). Add in some sort of channeling rule, Ld test when one of them takes a wound, or the other does as well, then allow the Dragon mage to draw range and LoS from the dragon. Not a huge bonus, but some way to get that little dragon out of the hero allotment, it's too tough to get the wiz and a BSB into smaller games (below 2500).

I was thinking earlier that having a standalone 0-1 Dragon choice could be a nice addition to the HE list. Might need to restrict it to only when you have a Prince/Archmage on the field still (though they don't have to be mounted on the Dragon) for balance/fluff reasons.

Regarding Dragon Mages specifcally, I kind of feel like it makes most sense to keep him on the dragon. While the unit was created specifically to push the new Dragon Kit, I do find him to be a nice, fun addition to the HE roster. I feel that the biggest detriments to him came about with wound allocation vs. templates/cannons changes in 8th and the nerfing of Terror Bombing and Steadfast. I envision him as riding into combat a top a Sun Dragon and in general sort of going crazy and fireblasting people here and there like crazy. As such, I feel like the Reckless rule is the best one to look at:

Reckless - instead of giving +1PD per casting, how about: "A Dragon Mage may choose to cast any Fire Lore spells twice per Magic Phase. If he chooses to do so, roll a D6 after attempting to cast the spell. On a roll of a '6', regardless of whether or not the spell was cast, the Dragon Mage will suffer a miscast (though will not necessarily cast the spell with Irresistible Force). If the second casting of the spell was cast with IF naturally, subtract D3 from the ensuing Miscast Table result." Or something like that. Maybe also a specific allowance for the Dragon Mage's dragon to be allowed to use his Breath Attack during the Shooting Phase only, but not be restricted to one use (it's only S2)?

These are just my initial thoughts on the DM.

The one use only S2 breathe cut down on the avoiding combat to magic/shoot up the enemy. S2 wasn't great, but now that it's once a game, it's a lot worse.
T6 5+ save with a T3 6+ save wizard on it isn't remotely survivable.

Maybe the best solution is to change nothing, and just knock 50 points of the dragon mage. 300 points for the guy on the dragon is still a lot (335 if he's a level 2 wizard).

Seriously, you can take a wiz lord on great eagle (level 4) for 40 points less than the level 1 on sun dragon.

-Matt

How about a points reduction of _all_ ridden monsters in general? They all have gotten nerfed quite a bit.

I like this idea! 100pt Manticores for DE! Seriously, the only survivability it has is T5... woo.