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We've been running a set of mini-tournaments with rotating formats here in town. As a result, I did a little experimenting with the Anvil of Doom. Despite only going for "normal" power on the runes, I blew it up in turn two in both games, while attempting to charge miners into potentially game winning combats. (As a result , I was massacred in the first game, though somehow recovered in the second). Obviously unlucky, but still left a bad taste in my mouth.

Although I love the movement tricks it can provide, I really dislike how unreliable the thing is. Even at normal power, it will misfire one in 6 attempts. And over the course of a 6 game tournament, you should expect to blow the thing up at least once. That's handing 4-500 VPs (depending on runes) over, along with most of your magic defense. Pretty much a game losing proposition.

That's ignoring the prospect of an instant kill from pit of shades, dwellers below, or purple sun (since it is a warmachine).

How do others view the anvil (either using it or playing against it)? Invaluable tool, massive liability, or something in between?

It's incredibly rare that I've had it blow up vs me, though organ guns tend to explode the minute they're placed on my table (at least vs my ogres).

Personally, I hated the anvil through 7th and still dislike it in 8th, and my complaints around the club are well known. My detestation is because I can do absolutely nothing to stop the powers from activating, unlike the magic that my other armies have to roll dice for and have fail them utterly - but again, this is because anvils never seem to misfire vs me. Also, I play no army that can effectively make it take an auto-death test at range (skaven have their ways but brass orb / crack's both involve suicide engineers I don't run), so killing it always involves dismantling the dwarf army first or getting lucky with assassins or gutters (!)

That said, I suspect it's somewhat worse in 8th edition, because wrath-and-ruin isn't doing a level of damage that matters to large units, and the movement power while still brainbustingly good (and increasingly rare, with the loss of the WAAAGH! spell leaving, I think, just Vanhels?) might not be as useful, as charging matters less and dwarfs aren't 100% awesome in combat at the moment.

So: Hated in 7th, Tentative-Hate in 8th

- Salvage

I am not sold on the Anvil in 8th. What it did in terms of mobility for dwarf combat blocks (effectively saving them one turn of foot slogging) the new charge rules have more or less done anyway by nearly doubling our average charge distance.

The thing is, you *need* some DD. Rather than the anvil, I'd tool a survivability runelord with some scrolls and dice-stealing shenanigans, and run him in a combat block to challenge-tank scary dudes. In terms of its primary function, I think the anvil's best days are over. Even when it works (and my experience with that is much like yours, zeke) we don't need it any more.

Unless, of course, you're taking Thorek. In which case it is worth it, but you deserve to be shot in both knees and be abandoned in the desert.

Shield, rune of stone, rune of shielding.
T10, 2+ armor, 2+ ward vs shooting. 348 points.

Just go cheaper so it isn't such a huge loss.
While the movement in 8th isn't as critical, I find the use of slowing a death star makes it better than it was before.

-Matt

The Anvil is still very useful in 8th but it certainly requires the trick units to get most out of the movement spells (rangers & miners). As before, the misfire mechanics are pretty annoying. I'd rather have toned down effects with no misfire chance but ah well...

One big downside is that the anvil easily dies to pit and purple sun and it's not uncommon to face either of those (with a big mage forcing it through with 6 dice), altough those spells are pretty awful vs other dwarf stuff as well.

Leave the anvil at home and take more hammerers in my opinion. Facing dwarfs, I have to plan my whole strategy around what to do with those little buggers.

Instant kill from pit of shades, dwellers below, or purple sun (since it is a warmachine).
The thing is, all those spells have short range, and are typically being tossed around by a very expensive lord.
What I've found to do is place the anvil in the back corner, even if it's in the open. T10 2+ armor and 2+ ward vs shooting will put a huge damper on any direct fire solution.
Support it with rangers and miners and you should be able to hit the wizards unit in melee before they can close range. Once in melee, none of those 3 spells can be cast.
The best part is, rangers deploy last, and miners show up where you want them to, so you'll have the option for ideal placement of support.
Dwarves do fine without the anvil, but IMO, the flexibility and range (unlimited) out performs that 24 hammers (same cost). Strangely enough, hammers with a BSB have the same odds of breaking as the anvil does of dying on a misfire.

-Matt

Chance of hammerers breaking: 1 in 6.

Chance of hammerers breaking with a BSB: 1 in 12.

Chance of anvil exploding: 1 in 6.

Chito wrote:Chance of hammerers breaking: 1 in 6.

Chance of hammerers breaking with a BSB: 1 in 12.

Chance of anvil exploding: 1 in 6.

1:6 with a re-roll is 1 in 36. (odds of rolling 10+ twice in a row).
Anvil misfires 1 in 6, but only blows up on a 1...also 1 in 36. (rolling misfire followed by a 1).

-Matt

I've made this observation before, but it seems the Dakka community takes those odds as a challenge.

I looked at it and decided it was too unreliable. It's basically the dwarfs equivalent of magic, yet you're paying over and above the cost of a Lord level mage for some not particularly high powered "spells" that most of the time don't work.

They work very reliably, as long as you don't 4+ it.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Chito wrote:Chance of hammerers breaking: 1 in 6.

Chance of hammerers breaking with a BSB: 1 in 12.

Chance of anvil exploding: 1 in 6.

1:6 with a re-roll is 1 in 36. (odds of rolling 10+ twice in a row).
Anvil misfires 1 in 6, but only blows up on a 1...also 1 in 36. (rolling misfire followed by a 1).

-Matt

Ahh, I was assuming the example anvil had already misfired. Also, you're right, 6 squared is 36, not 12!

@ Boss: Do you also detest the cauldron? No way to dispel those either, and they can't misfire.

On the other hand, affecting movement is pretty huge- bigger even than the cauldron buffs. It just tends to feel like both players are watching the game hinge on a single dice roll each turn. After sinking all those points in the anvil, I feel like the rest of the army looks a little "light", so you're working at a bit of a deficit. Which means you really need the anvil charges to go off. Which means that each turn I use it, it tends to feel like, "Okay, on a 1, I'm well on my way to losing the game. On anything else, this could be pretty huge..."

Yes, there is that problem with it.
I used it in 7th in every game, but I think I don't need it in 8th anymore.

The thing with the charge is that flanking isn't that big of deal, thanks to steadfast and combat reforms.
Charging is only the +1 swing in combat res, which again, isn't critical with steadfast.
Where the anvil seems to really shine is slowing down a death star. If you get 4 rounds of punishing a death star instead of 2, that's pretty huge.
Some nasty combo's come up as well. In a try something different game, I took a big unit of thunderers, with a BSB (rune of slowness).
I dropped them centered on a death star, and anviled it repeatedly.

When you combine the 1/2 move with minus the higher of 2D6 from the charge, you end up just totally working over a death star.
Think about it, fast infantry like Ogres March 6" (if when they pass their LD for the march blocking gyro). They charge on average only ~3" (6+2D6)/2 - 1D6".
Of course, the dwarves still stand and fire.

If your local dynamic has an issue with death stars, this is the cure. Add in some long beard rangers with throwing axes, and you can even get a few rounds of shooting off (also take a rune of slowness, then back away firing).

Against a well rounded army with several mid sized threats, the anvil is less useful, but I find dwarves able to handle mid-sized threats better.

-Matt

I'll have to go take a look at the anvil wording again. I assumed it just cut the movement stat in half.

I've found the flank charge still matters quite a bit when bringing in a large unit of miners. Depending on the target, I could select the right formation that would cause maximum casualties, while still being deep enough to remove steadfast and disrupt the target. It would likely have done the trick against a brick of 18 razorgor if my runelord hadn't blown himself to kingdom come...

I love the anvil, and so do my camos and terradons

I agree with most of what HawaiiMatt has to say here. Best defense for the anvil is to tuck it away and out of range or out of LoS using it's unlimited range effects.
Also i run the Runelord who brings it with the Master Rune of Balance, and a Spelleater Rune for 415 points. That gives me 4 bonus dispell dice and takes a power die from the enemy, and the first time they try thier Test Spell such as Dwellers, Pit, etc. and they dont IF it i try and Spell Eat it. Mind you I play against magic armies more often than not. With those precautions you will still lose an anvil to those spells every so often, but you have a great chance of just locking those spells out alltogether barring IF, easier when you deny the opponent a spell die.
It is expensive, but as the points go up from 2000 i find it to be more and more usefull myself, but it can be fairly random, and certainly is a consideration relative to each players overall strategy. It works for me because i prefer to play defensively with a solid hold on an area, and the devices to decimate the enemy army from afar, thus forcing them to suffer thier way to me, and providing a solid offense and defense against whatever survives.