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Fafnir wrote: Rage only means the closest model in the unit has to end up closer to the closest enemy model, he can move the rest of the unit freely, and choose to charge whatever he wants. Which means that he can easily slingshot his entire army across the table with proper placement. I do it all the time with Lemartes, and it helps me clean up entire tables. Basically, for every Death Company still alive in the unit, you need to keep your main force 3" away from your anvils. Otherwise he can abuse unit coherency to get in assault range with your meatier support.

Do you have to move just one model closer to the closest visible enemy and the rest can go where you want within the limits of coherency? Or do you have to move every model closer to the closest visible enemy?

I personally believe that the unit as a whole has to move towards the closest visible enemy.

In another thread this topic came up and I'm interested in getting the communities opinion.

Ulfar wrote:I personally believe that the unit as a whole has to move towards the closest visible enemy.

Which means... what?

There's so little detail in the Rage USR that your interpretation of it doesn't even clarify what you think should happen!

It simply says that the unit must move as fast as possible towards it. If the slowest model can move 6", then the unit must end their movement 6" closer than where they began. That doesn't mean every model, just the "unit footprint".

I use two different ways to explain this freedom to people (one practical, one fun/fluffy):

1) The shortest distance is a straight line. In order to move as fast as possible towards something, you'd have to move in a straight line. If EVERY model has to move as fast as possible towards one point, and "as fast as possible" means max distance in a straight line, then those straight lines would begin to converge, resulting in any unit with Rage being clumped up together. Try telling that to someone using DC and see if they ever bring them again.

2) The model that's closest to the enemy sees that one unit and goes into a blind fury. However, every other model isn't as close, and maybe sees another option somewhere else. If on one side of a unit there's a Landspeeder 7" away, and another side there's a Tactical Squad 8" away, the guys on the side closer to the Tactical Squad aren't going to care at all about the Landspeeder that they can't reach.

somerandomdude wrote:

Ulfar wrote:I personally believe that the unit as a whole has to move towards the closest visible enemy.

Which means... what?

There's so little detail in the Rage USR that your interpretation of it doesn't even clarify what you think should happen!

It simply says that the unit must move as fast as possible towards it. If the slowest model can move 6", then the unit must end their movement 6" closer than where they began. That doesn't mean every model, just the "unit footprint".

I use two different ways to explain this freedom to people (one practical, one fun/fluffy):

1) The shortest distance is a straight line. In order to move as fast as possible towards something, you'd have to move in a straight line. If EVERY model has to move as fast as possible towards one point, and "as fast as possible" means max distance in a straight line, then those straight lines would begin to converge, resulting in any unit with Rage being clumped up together. Try telling that to someone using DC and see if they ever bring them again.

2) The model that's closest to the enemy sees that one unit and goes into a blind fury. However, every other model isn't as close, and maybe sees another option somewhere else. If on one side of a unit there's a Landspeeder 7" away, and another side there's a Tactical Squad 8" away, the guys on the side closer to the Tactical Squad aren't going to care at all about the Landspeeder that they can't reach.

I understand the fluffy response, but the rage rule clearly states the unit must move towards the closest visible enemy. As I interpret that, all models in the unit subject to the rage rule must end their movement as close to the closest visible enemy as possible. Now you could take it to the extreme and say that they follow your first example, but I feel that that is extreme. Along as the unit as a whole moves towards the closest visible enemy I think your ok.

Ulfar wrote:I understand the fluffy response, but the rage rule clearly states the unit must move towards the closest visible enemy.

I saw the other thread where page 3 was brought up, so let's quote page 3:

"When measuring distances between two units, use the closest models as your reference points."

What does this mean? Measure from the closest model to the enemy unit. Is that the closest enemy unit? Then that is the enemy unit the Rage unit must move towards.

As I interpret that, all models in the unit subject to the rage rule must end their movement as close to the closest visible enemy as possible.

When you move, you are not limited to all models going in the same direction, even with Rage, as the unit is what moves. In order for the unit to move closer, that model that is closest must move as fast as possible, and the unit must maintain coherency (as per the basic movement rules). At the end of the movement, if the unit is as close as was possible, then you've satisfied the rule (remember: Measure distances using the closest models only, as above).

Now you could take it to the extreme and say that they follow your first example, but I feel that that is extreme.

That's extreme? No, by your definition of how Rage should be handled, that's the rule. In order for every model to move as fast as possible, they would have to move in a straight line, and those lines would be forced to converge at some point (assuming the opponent knew what they were doing).

Along as the unit as a whole moves towards the closest visible enemy I think your ok.

Again, this statement is as ambiguous as the Rage USR itself. "Unit as a whole" doesn't even suggest individual models, it suggests the unit. If the unit moves closer, the distance between the two units must simply be shorter, according to the rule I quoted above.

Yeah, this just came up in another topic. In short, the answer goes something like this: The unit must move as close as possible. If you move the closest model to the closest enemy unit as far towards it as possible, you have done this. The rest of the unit can then move as it wants, as long as it stays in coherency.

Your interpretation is unplayable, any raging unit will get bunched up from turn 1-2.

Here's a thread on the subject - it is quite clear who is right here:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=217017&hl=rage

I disagree with the interpretation that only the closest model must be moved as far as possible. The reason is because 'Rage' specifies that the unit must move 'as fast as possible' towards the closest visible enemy. A unit is comprised of its models, and therefore all models have to move as fast as possible.

Your counter-argument is based on the fact that range is measured between two units from their closest point, and yes you would be correct that the distance between the two units decreased by the maximum amount if only the closest Raging model is moved his maximum distance, but that's not what the Rage rule specifies. Even the furthest model in the raging unit is still part of the unit and the unit must move as fast as possible, so if any model doesn't move as fast as possible then the rule has not been followed.

This does not mean Raging models have to move in a straight line...in fact, the 'move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy' dictates that if they had to move around an impassable obstacle then they would do so, because doing so is the fastest possible way for them to reach said enemy unit.

Illumini wrote:Your interpretation is unplayable, any raging unit will get bunched up from turn 1-2.

Why do you say this? Just because the unit gets bunched up why is that unplayable?

The Rage rule even says: "Some warriors are little more than mindless killing machines, incapable of rational thought and only interested in getting to grips with the enemy as soon as possible."

So why does it not make complete sense that Raging units have to head in a big mindless blob towards their intended 'target'?

Does the position of the furthest model somehow make the unit move faster/closer?

You're right that a unit is comprised of models. However, a model /= unit (other than single-model units). The rules only state what the unit must do. Any instance in the rulebook that states unit does not refer to the individual models. Otherwise we'd have to take multiple Leadership tests for pinning, for instance.

What does it mean to move as fast as possible? It means to get as close as possible. In order for a unit to get closer, it must shorten the distance. Since the distance rule only cares about the closest model, that's all that matters. Moving the furthest model towards the target unit does not subtract anything from the distance between the Rage unit and the target.

And you're wrong. If there is nothing obstructing the movement path, then the unit MUST move in a straight line - otherwise it would not be moving "as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy." This would lead to models being bunched together.

So why does it not make complete sense that Raging units have to head in a big mindless blob towards their intended 'target'?

Does it make sense that a DC member would move toward the Landspeeder 20 inches away when there is a Space Marine Tactical squad 4 inches away?

Yak, the only problem with that is that there's really nothing to specifically define 'as fast as possible' in the rulebook, other then that you have to end with the unit as close as possible to the nearest enemy unit. And since it points out specifically that the distance between units is measured from the closest model in the unit, I'd have to say your interpretation is invalid.

somerandomdude wrote:Does the position of the furthest model somehow make the unit move faster/closer?

The only time 'closest' matters is what the closest visible enemy is. Which of course you would have to determine by checking range. After that is determined, the rule is that the unit must move as fast as possible...not 'the unit must reduce the distance between it and the closest enemy unit by the maximum amount' (which is what you are arguing).

The unit must move as fast as possible...which by definition includes all of the unit.

You're right that a unit is comprised of models. However, a model /= unit (other than single-model units). The rules only state what the unit must do. Any instance in the rulebook that states unit does not refer to the individual models. Otherwise we'd have to take multiple Leadership tests for pinning, for instance.

Agreed, but the unit is made up of all its models. If part of the unit is not moving as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy, then the unit is not moving as fast as possible.

For example, say you only move the closest model in a raging unit as fast as possible towards the closest enemy unit but not the rest of the Raging unit. Then in the opponent's shooting phase the player controlling the Raging unit pulls off the closest models due to shooting casualties...and this process repeats for several turns in a row. After several turns, the Raging unit will not be nearly as close as they could have been to the closest enemy unit as they have not been moving as fast as possible.

What does it mean to move as fast as possible? It means to get as close as possible. In order for a unit to get closer, it must shorten the distance. Since the distance rule only cares about the closest model, that's all that matters. Moving the furthest model towards the target unit does not subtract anything from the distance between the Rage unit and the target.

Again, after checking to see which is the closest enemy unit, you are adding additional exceptions to the rule that do not exist. The unit must move as fast as possible. There are no exceptions here. All parts of the unit must move as far as possible or else they have not moved as far as possible.

And you're wrong. If there is nothing obstructing the movement path, then the unit MUST move in a straight line - otherwise it would not be moving "as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy." This would lead to models being bunched together.

That's exactly what I said (I think we're saying the same thing). Raging units do have to move in a straight line unless there is an obstruction that would prevent them from moving as fast as possible towards the closest enemy unit in which case they would be mandated to move around it in the quickest possible fashion. Yes, this absolutely leads to models being bunched up, but again, I see this as completely fitting what the rule says should be happening...The mindless killers are going full-out to reach their target without thought for proper combat spacing.

Does it make sense that a DC member would move toward the Landspeeder 20 inches away when there is a Space Marine Tactical squad 4 inches away?

No, I never said it did. I completely agree that when the rule asks for the 'closest visible enemy' it has to be read as 'closest visible enemy unit' in order for the rule to function at all, but beyond that I obviously thoroughly disagree that some parts of the unit do not have to be moved as fast as possible towards the closest enemy unit, as that goes against exactly what the rule tells you to do.




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Fafnir wrote:Yak, the only problem with that is that there's really nothing to specifically define 'as fast as possible' in the rulebook, other then that you have to end with the unit as close as possible to the nearest enemy unit. And since it points out specifically that the distance between units is measured from the closest model in the unit, I'd have to say your interpretation is invalid.

I agree, but the wording is vague enough to have an over-arching meaning. If the rule was extremely specific that you had to decrease the range between the units by the maximum amount then I would be in agreement, but it is not written that way. The unit must move as fast as possible. This has meaning. If you are on a football team and the coach says that the team has to run as fast as possible until one player crosses the goal line, then even though everybody stops when that one player crosses the goal line EVERY member of the team is expected to run as fast as possible or else they are disobeying the coach's command.

So the question is: Did a unit that didn't move all of its models as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy unit move 'as fast as possible'? I think the answer is clearly no because some parts of the unit did not move as fast as possible. They could have moved faster (i.e. their full movement rate) towards that closest enemy unit and they didn't...so you did not abide by the rule.

yakface wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Yak, the only problem with that is that there's really nothing to specifically define 'as fast as possible' in the rulebook, other then that you have to end with the unit as close as possible to the nearest enemy unit. And since it points out specifically that the distance between units is measured from the closest model in the unit, I'd have to say your interpretation is invalid.

I agree, but the wording is vague enough to have an over-arching meaning. If the rule was extremely specific that you had to decrease the range between the units by the maximum amount then I would be in agreement, but it is not written that way. The unit must move as fast as possible. This has meaning. If you are on a football team and the coach says that the team has to run as fast as possible until one player crosses the goal line, then even though everybody stops when that one player crosses the goal line EVERY member of the team is expected to run as fast as possible or else they are disobeying the coach's command.

The problem with that analogy is that any football player is eligable to cross the line. In the case of a unit, it's already decided before any moves are made which model is going to be used as reference.

So the question is: Did a unit that didn't move all of its models as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy unit move 'as fast as possible'? I think the answer is clearly no because some parts of the unit did not move as fast as possible. They could have moved faster (i.e. their full movement rate) towards that closest enemy unit and they didn't...so you did not abide by the rule.

But the rulebook states that you treat a unit as moving as far/fast as the fastest moving model in the unit (which also explains why a unit that only moved 2 models cannot fire heavy weapons, even though the rest of the unit was still).

Fafnir wrote:

The problem with that analogy is that any football player is eligable to cross the line. In the case of a unit, it's already decided before any moves are made which model is going to be used as reference.

That is completely untrue. Say the closest visible enemy unit is a mere 3" away from the closest model in the raging unit...however, there is a 6" impassable crevasse in front of him, so moving the 'closest' model at full speed towards the enemy ends up with him not making any actual forward movement towards the enemy unit. But *another* member of the Raging unit who did not start the phase as close to the closest visible enemy unit is *not* blocked by the crevasse, and therefore when he ends up making his movement at full speed towards the enemy unit he ends up being the closest model to the enemy unit after all moves are complete.

Players do not push every model in the unit at the same time across the board when moving the unit...you take one model, move it and then move the next one, etc, etc, etc. You do not technically 'know' which model is going to end up being closest to the enemy unit until the entire Raging unit has been moved. Yes, 99% of the time it will be obvious, but that's not the point, the point is that there can be situations where obstructions end up meaning the Raging model that 'starts' closest to the enemy unit does not end up being the closest model to the enemy unit *after* movement is complete.

The only way the rule can be followed with 100% compliance is to move all models in the unit as fast as possible (their maximum rate) towards the closest enemy unit.

But the rulebook states that you treat a unit as moving as far/fast as the fastest moving model in the unit (which also explains why a unit that only moved 2 models cannot fire heavy weapons, even though the rest of the unit was still).

The rulebook doesn't state that. I believe you're thinking of the 'all models in a unit move at the speed of the slowest model.' Heavy weapons cannot fire if the unit moves...that's just how they wrote the rules (same with rapid-fire weapons), it has nothing to do with models counting as moving as fast as the fastest model that moved in the unit.

And if anything, other areas of the rules refute that concept. The squadron rules, for example dictate that individual members of a squadron all have to move at the speed the squadron is moving at. NOT, that the squadron counts as having moved at the speed the fastest model in the squadron moved, but rather that they all are have to move the same 'speed' band.

While this isn't really analogous because vehicles move at those 'speed bands' that regular models don't the point I'm trying to get across is that you seem to have it backwards. Models in a unit don't count as having moved as fast as the fastest model in their unit moved.

yakface wrote:

Fafnir wrote:

The problem with that analogy is that any football player is eligable to cross the line. In the case of a unit, it's already decided before any moves are made which model is going to be used as reference.

That is completely untrue. Say the closest visible enemy unit is a mere 3" away from the closest model in the raging unit...however, there is a 6" impassable crevasse in front of him, so moving the 'closest' model at full speed towards the enemy ends up with him not making any actual forward movement towards the enemy unit. But *another* member of the Raging unit who did not start the phase as close to the closest visible enemy unit is *not* blocked by the crevasse, and therefore when he ends up making his movement at full speed towards the enemy unit he ends up being the closest model to the enemy unit after all moves are complete.

Going by RAW, that doesn't matter. You have to move in reference to the model that the distance is referenced from. So if the closest model to the enemy unit is unable to move closer to that enemy, and you're unable to slingshot to another enemy unit, then the unit with Rage can effectively become 'stuck' because of this.

But the rulebook states that you treat a unit as moving as far/fast as the fastest moving model in the unit (which also explains why a unit that only moved 2 models cannot fire heavy weapons, even though the rest of the unit was still).

The rulebook doesn't state that. I believe you're thinking of the 'all models in a unit move at the speed of the slowest model.' Heavy weapons cannot fire if the unit moves...that's just how they wrote the rules (same with rapid-fire weapons), it has nothing to do with models counting as moving as fast as the fastest model that moved in the unit.

Okay, you're right on this account, the rulebook doesn't specifically state that, however, it does mention in the "Moving and Shooting" subsection that:

"The most important thing to remember is that the whole unit counts as moving if any of its models moved in the Movement phase."

Using logical extrapolation, it would be pretty easy to assume that, at least in the case of infantry, a unit moves as far as the fastest moving model in the unit.

Fafnir wrote:
Going by RAW, that doesn't matter. You have to move in reference to the model that the distance is referenced from. So if the closest model to the enemy unit is unable to move closer to that enemy, and you're unable to slingshot to another enemy unit, then the unit with Rage can effectively become 'stuck' because of this.

What RAW? We can agree that you check range to find out what the closest enemy unit is based on the closest model in the Raging unit, but after that there is no RAW you can point to that would allow you to NOT move a model in the unit as far as possible especially considering that would make the unit 'as a whole' end up closer to the enemy unit it is raging towards.

And that's my point. YOU have created the distinction that only the model who starts its move closest to the enemy unit matters, when that is NOT in any of the rules. The model that starts its move closest to the enemy unit may not end up being the closest model to the enemy unit when the entire unit finishes moving. How in *any way* can you say that the unit moved as fast as possible towards the closest enemy unit if it doesn't (at the very least) end up with a model as close as they can possibly get to the enemy unit?

Using logical extrapolation, it would be pretty easy to assume that, at least in the case of infantry, a unit moves as far as the fastest moving model in the unit.

No, the only thing you can extrapolate is that as long as one model in the unit moves the entire unit counts as moving, because all models are part of the unit. But you don't physically move units. You move individual models. So the only way to move a unit 'as fast as possible' is to move the individual models in the unit as fast as possible.

yakface wrote:

Fafnir wrote:
Going by RAW, that doesn't matter. You have to move in reference to the model that the distance is referenced from. So if the closest model to the enemy unit is unable to move closer to that enemy, and you're unable to slingshot to another enemy unit, then the unit with Rage can effectively become 'stuck' because of this.

What RAW? We can agree that you check range to find out what the closest enemy unit is based on the closest model in the Raging unit, but after that there is no RAW you can point to that would allow you to NOT move a model in the unit as far as possible especially considering that would make the unit 'as a whole' end up closer to the enemy unit it is raging towards.

Oops, I made a mistake here. Was thinking about something else in this case (raging against an enemy that the unit is unable to actually reach, but still closest and in line of sight, in which case the unit would become stuck without slingshotting).

And that's my point. YOU have created the distinction that only the model who starts its move closest to the enemy unit matters, when that is NOT in any of the rules. The model that starts its move closest to the enemy unit may not end up being the closest model to the enemy unit when the entire unit finishes moving. How in *any way* can you say that the unit moved as fast as possible towards the closest enemy unit if it doesn't (at the very least) end up with a model as close as they can possibly get to the enemy unit?

Noted and corrected above.

Using logical extrapolation, it would be pretty easy to assume that, at least in the case of infantry, a unit moves as far as the fastest moving model in the unit.

No, the only thing you can extrapolate is that as long as one model in the unit moves the entire unit counts as moving, because all models are part of the unit. But you don't physically move units. You move individual models. So the only way to move a unit 'as fast as possible' is to move the individual models in the unit as fast as possible.

Fafnir wrote:That depends entirely on interpretation, however.

There's no doubt that this is ambiguous...if it weren't, there wouldn't be multiple discussions on the topic on several forums. With that said:

The unit is a unity of all the models within it. Its footprint is irrelevant, and it's treated as a single entity on the table. Nowhere in the rulebook does it say that you move each model as an individual.

Its footprint is irrelevant for measuring ranges. And that's why we agree on how you determine which enemy unit is closest to the Raging unit, because the rules tell us how to measure ranges (between the closest models in the two units).

The problem is you've extrapolated the rules for measuring ranges and applied it erroneously to the concept of moving the unit as fast as possible.

This is an incorrect assumption because (as I pointed out above) there are plenty of situations where the model who begins its movement can be the closest model to the enemy unit but after all moves are complete is no longer the closest model to the enemy unit. The only way to know for certain that a unit has moved as fast as possible towards the closest enemy unit is to move every single model in the unit as fast as possible. There is no other way that covers every possible situation.

And as for the rules not stating that individual models are not moved, please refer to page 11: 'Models in the way'. That section talks specifically about moving individual models in the unit. Not to mention all of the Assault rules that are clearly written indicating that individual models are moved one at a time (again this last part isn't really relevant, but I did want to mention that it exists).

More importantly, the 'reality' of tabletop gaming is that unless you have some sort of movement tray you *have* to move one model in a unit at a time...there just isn't any other realistic way to do it.

For the people complaining about rage bunching their units up, no where in the rule does it say you must move as fast as possible to the closest enemy MODEL. You use the closest enemy model determine which enemy unit you must move towards. After that you just need to move as fast as possible towards any part of that enemy unit. Since enemy units are usually comprised of multiple models or large single models, there shouldnt be too much of an issue of bunching up.

I'm in full agreement with yakface on this. For me it fits the fluff, spirit, and wording of the rule. Some may argue technical interpretation of the rule, but that is not for me.

I hope this gets clarified in the INATFAQ.

Just wanted to say thank you for the responses in my own thread about this, and thank you to Yakface for closing it. It really did not need to be there.

To get back on topic...

I also agree with Yakface. The RAGE USER does not state that "you must end your movement as close as possible to the nearest enemy unit". It states that you have to move as fast as possible, i.e. at your maximum possible speed. As close as possible and as fast as possible are not the same.

The RAGE USR also states that you just move towards the nearest enemy unit. Again, it doesn't state that you have to get as close as possible, just that you have to move in that direction.

My interpretation would see the entire unit move its maximum speed, and every model would have to end its movement closer to the nearest enemy unit. Note that I said closer, and not as close as possible. This would not require the unit to bunch up, and it actually still leaves you quite a bit of control on how the individual models in the unit move.

So a model at the very back of the unit would have to move 6" in open terrain and end its movement closer to the nearest enemy unit than when it began. So it has to move 6", but it can end its movement 1", 2", 3", 4", 5", or 6" closer. So long as it is closer than before it moved.

That's how I read it.

JourneyPsycheOut wrote:For the people complaining about rage bunching their units up, no where in the rule does it say you must move as fast as possible to the closest enemy MODEL. You use the closest enemy model determine which enemy unit you must move towards. After that you just need to move as fast as possible towards any part of that enemy unit. Since enemy units are usually comprised of multiple models or large single models, there shouldnt be too much of an issue of bunching up.

Does this mean that, if I am 2" away, I can move laterally "toward" a different model of that same unit which is 8" to one side, perhaps taking my closer to a potential assault target?

One more thing I'd like to point out is the Fall Back! move:

Each model in the unit falls back directly towards their own table edge by the shortest route possible.

There are several key terms used in that rule that suggests it is functionally different from Rage.

"Each model in the unit"
"Directly towards"
"Shortest route possible"

If ANY of these were in the Rage USR, I'd agree with the interpretation put forth by yak and Valdrad. But they aren't. You're not restricted to move "directly towards" (although that can cause some problems) and more importantly, you're not forced to move "each model in the unit" towards the enemy.

A unit is a sum of its parts, but the parts themselves follow different rules.

Really, we could go back and forth on this one forever, the rules regarding this one are very poorly written and quite vague. There are decent arguments for both sides, but until GW FAQs it, I'd suggest discussing it with your gaming group.

While I agree Fafnir, I don't think further discussion really hurts us here. Maybe we actually can come to an agreement.

Somerandomdude, I actually agree with the majority of what you said. I really do wish that rage said "each model in the unit", but it doesn't. I think that's really all that's needed at this point to clear the rule up.

I agree that it does not say "directly towards" or "by the shortest possible route", but it does say towards. The biggest point of contention seems to be how you define whether the unit has moved towards the nearest enemy or not. I happen to agree with Yakface, and I feel that every model in the unit has to do this for the unit to have fulfilled that requirement. Some of you do not agree with that.

Here is my biggest issue with the other interpretation:

If you only have to move the closest model towards the nearest enemy unit, then it's perfectly valid for the majority of your unit to move in the opposite direction and actually end up further from the nearest enemy rather than closer. While I obviously cannot know what GW intended when they wrote the rule, it seems pretty obvious to me that moving in the opposite direction isn't it. It nearly makes the rule pointless; it might as well not even be there.