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Hi and mutate well,

I'm building a fairly small all Khorne list & since I don't have enough points for both I was wondering which would be more effective.
As its a small list it needs to be a multi purpose unit and individually strong.
Who's the most popular army now? IG would mash the DP with numbers but marines would have the weapons to kill the SG.

Thanks everyone.

The real question is what fits your list best. Overall I am of the opinion that if you are sticking to a theme (Khorne) a pair of Soulgrinders brings some much needed ranged shooting to break open vehicles. I would take them with Tongue. The other 'default' option is a Tzeetch prince with Bolt. Consider the following for shooting a Rhino

SG - BS 3, S 10: Rhino - Hit on 4+, Pen on 2+
Tzeetch w/ Bolt - BS 5, S 8 - Hit on 2+, Pen on 4+

For transports they are roughly equal - also I would say guard are better at trashing a SG than Marines are. Missiles need a 6 to Pen its front armor and Lascannons still need a 5+. Guard bring these (along with some annoying orders) in much more abundance. With some good DS you can often avoid many of the SM weapons, where this is harder against IG.

In CC only a Fist or Melta bombs can hurt the SG and a Fist needs a 6 to Pen.

I feel that Grinders/Princes are about equal in the tank-smashing department. In my opinion, if you go with a Grinder, you have to take the tongue profile on them. I realize it is a 50/50 shot to hit, but it has a pretty good chance to blow up whatever it hits (S10, AP1 is so good). As for Princes, if you want them tearing open tanks then you have to give them wings to give them mobility. I personally like the Unholy Might for the extra point of STR. Don't get tricked by Death Strike, though. It is pretty meh, barely able to blow open Rhinos. Anything bigger than that and it is going to be nearly impossible to blow it open.

Whichever way you choose, make sure that you max out those slots. The Heavy Support and HQ slots are the best slots in that Codex.

I personally would go with the Grinders. Have you frikkin' seen those things? THEY LOOK SINISTER AS HELL!

EDIT:

If you do Princes, keep them as cheap as possible. I realize that I just said that I would give them wings which almost instantly doubles their point value, but I feel it is necessary if they are going to be going tank hunting. Just go Prince, Mark of Khorne (to stay with theme), Wings, and Iron Hide. Off the top of my head (don't have codex on me), I think that makes them 160 points a piece or so, which is the same price as a Grinder with one of it's mawcannon profiles upgraded. Which sounds reasonable to me. Good luck!

Soul grinders because:
A) it is too easy to OP a daemon prince and spend far too many points.
B) the model is cool.
C) it gives you some ranged weapons.
D) I like the model.
E) it will attract enemy fire away from more dangerous, but smaller units.
F) it looks awesome.
G) it is half defiler.
H) HAVE YOU SEEN THE MODEL?!

Hope my input helped.

Annoying thing is, ive been playing daemons since release, and im still swapping and changing between them.

However, i tend to run 3 grinders more often than princes.
The cost of points it takes to get a price up to par with a grinder, you can take a grinder with both upgrades.

alot of people slate using both, however, i find its allways of use.
When running a list for a tournament it keeps you covered on all bases.
This allows for anti-infantry and anti-tank.

The large blast is good enough to stop saves from everything but termies and the likes.

I just find that against horde armies a prince really does struggle to keep up with the damage a grinder can cause.

If i know im playing against a deathwing army or a small elite one, ill happily take princes since i know they will have a much better turnout against elite units.

I think the main reason i prefer the grinder most of the time though is the fact its AV13.
LoC to boon a klaw nob then breath the unit, soul grinder then rushes in and is unable to be hurt.




I think the main reson to run a prince would be in a tally list.
And in that case, its princes all the way since they will be boosting it at a pertty high rate.

Just my playing style mind you but...

I run princes in my Daemon army because the Grinders are too big of a model to take advantage of cover for obscurement purposes. 5th gaming mechanics messes up this model (IMHO).

I am rather happy at people who do have 3 grinders in their army. To me it's a point sink that can be taken out by my long range weaponry, and less of a model count for the rest of the my opponents army.

Yes they can fleet, but time and time again in my gaming region Grinders either get neutralized by heavy firepower before they gain their points back and/or get tied up in some useless combat with their opponent's expendable combat squads.

I'd choose screamers for my anti vehicle and fiends/princes for my heavy assault unit.

For larger point games I think a flying Prince is a must. 2 even. They give you speed and vehicle bashing that you'll need.

But for a smaller army I would go with the 'grinder. It is a bit cheaper than a decked out Prince and should fit nicely into a low point list.

The real power of a 'grinder is its tarpit ability. Sometimes you can lock down very expensive unit because they can't handle its armor in close combat. PowerFists need a 6 to really do anything to it. Sure, it has other great uses, but drawing off a key squad into an endless combat can swing the entire game for you.

I want to reiterate that both DP and SG's can take out vehicles in the assault phase but the real advantage of the grinder is being able to do so in the shooting phase.

This enables you to assault a vehicle with part of your unit and get locked in and safe from shooting with the rest. If you are lucky you can pop or immobilize another vehicle and 'continue the chain'

I also disagree that HQ's and Heavy are the best slots for Daemons, I think it is Heavy and Elite (Fiends, Crushers, Flamers - what I would give for one of them to be Fast Attack instead!)

Yes... because the Daemon Prince doesn't have access to bolt of Tzeentch or anything.

Here is why i choose prince over soulgrinder:
1) this is daemons. I don't care that it is 40k, daemons don't need vehicles.
2) trying to deepstrike a soulgrinder is like trying to deepstrike 20 models... pretty easy to mishap.
3) You are paying 160 points for a gun... S8 large blast or S10 AP1 if you want. That sounds amazing... but its BS3, so with the blast or the tounge, you are only hitting half of the time. 160 points for that?
4)In close combat... the daemon prince is actually winning assaults against things other than S3-4 models with no CC skill. The Souldgrinder is kind of just...stalling. And, wile it is in close combat, regardless of if it is winning or not, it can't shoot.
5)If we actually apply anti-tank... what is more survivable? The Soulgrinder... or a daemon Prince of tzeentch. That 4++ save goes a long way... the soulgrinders AV13? Armies are prepared for that already...

If you think the soulgrinder looks epic and all, then by all means use it... but I feel a daemon prince actually does its job.

wisdomseyes1 wrote:Yes... because the Daemon Prince doesn't have access to bolt of Tzeentch or anything.

It might be a good idea to actually read the original post (and my original post) where the OP states he is building a KHORNE daemon army and I suggest that a Tzeetch prince is preferable, but from a shooting perspective they are equally good at taking out Rhinos.

Point 1:
This is a less a gameplay point and more a personal preference (which is fine)

Point 2:
This is true, it can be mitigated a bit by DS the SG first but they do suffer when it comes to cover, hitting terrain and generally being more risky (assuming no icon).

Point 3:
Examine the statistics and how a SG w/ Tongue and a Tzeetch DP with Bolt have the following respectively on AV 11. (4+ Hit/2+ Pen), (2+ Hit/4+ Pen) - For both it is a 5/12 chance to pen. For AV 12/13/14 a SG shooting is actually better, for AV 10 it is worse.

Point 4:
I don't necessarily agree here - I think they are balanced in their strengths/weaknesses.

Point 5:
Consider a Krak Missile - ignore rolls to hit as they are the same for both and assume no cover for either one. I am ignoring 'glanced to death' and we'll assume the immunity to small arms of the SG balances that out compared to the DP (it is probably pretty close)
DP - Wounded on 2+, save 50%. 4 wounds means 8 inflicted on average to kill - 9.6 hits on a DP Tzeetch DP to kill
SG - Glanced on a 5+, Penned on a 6+. A pen has a 1/3 chance to wreck it. That is 18 hits on a SG before it is wrecked. Even if we add in 'weapon destroyed' so 1/2 the time it suffers a meaningful damage result that is 12 missile hits

The SG is not LESS survivable than a DP in expected values, instead that one unlucky first hit can remove it while a Tzeetch DP is more robust to damage.

Armies are prepared for AV 13, but ignoring Shaken/Stunned results is a huge boon to these guys.

For consistency, I agree, go with Tzeetch Princes. For a flavorful Khorne/Nurgle/Slaanesh combination use SG to provide that ranged support that cannot be found in any of those gods pantheons. At 160 points the SG is still a steal imo.

One of the downsides to a grinder that no one has touched on yet is it's pathetic WS3 and I3. AV13 helps just a tad, but it will be wrecked easily in CC against most moderate to elite units or MC's.

- Terminators
- Wraithlords
- Powerfist/Klaw wielders with WS4
- etc

That doesn't completely invalidate it, but it's something that you need to keep in mind. I'd say a Prince and a Grinder holding hands is a good choice.

Why is it everyone see's bolt as the best anti-tank?
Granted its AP1, and then the qualities die.
A S8 anti-tank weapon? ill pass on that one.

The grinder throws out a S10 AP1 shot, so it can actually pen AV14!
The best thing? it can take down a lith aswell.
something thats pretty rare in a daemon army.

So, AP wise the grinder has a much stronger shot.


Anti-infanty - Phlegm, vomit and its harvester can all take care of infantry via shooting, so there isnt much left when it assaults a unit.

The daemons prince would end up tarpitted by alot of units whiloe doing a few wounds each turn.




Dragon - Granted it can be wrecked by such weapons, which would only do a wound to a prince.

However, what can a normal or heavy bolter do to a soul grinder?
Cant even scratch it, but they can chew through wounds on a prince pretty quickly.

calypso2ts wrote:
Point 5:
Consider a Krak Missile - ignore rolls to hit as they are the same for both and assume no cover for either one. I am ignoring 'glanced to death' and we'll assume the immunity to small arms of the SG balances that out compared to the DP (it is probably pretty close)
DP - Wounded on 2+, save 50%. 4 wounds means 8 inflicted on average to kill - 9.6 hits on a DP Tzeetch DP to kill
SG - Glanced on a 5+, Penned on a 6+. A pen has a 1/3 chance to wreck it. That is 18 hits on a SG before it is wrecked. Even if we add in 'weapon destroyed' so 1/2 the time it suffers a meaningful damage result that is 12 missile hits

The SG is not LESS survivable than a DP in expected values, instead that one unlucky first hit can remove it while a Tzeetch DP is more robust to damage.

Armies are prepared for AV 13, but ignoring Shaken/Stunned results is a huge boon to these guys.

How many meltaguns does it take to kill a DP vs a soulgrinder? Because pouring on krak missiles to a soulgrinder is silly with its AV13, and other daemons on the table. Especially ones that deepstrike in (nice and tight for blasts), have marine/guard toughness values, and 5++ or 4++. Or DP's, GD's etc... I think Mr Soulgrinder is going to cop a couple of melta rounds before he cops some krak missiles

At which point the SG has probably served his purpose by...

Blowing up a transport or forcing a unit out of its transport?

I assumed both units would be at range for this because when you get within 6-12" of a DP his survivability goes down just as rapidly as a SG.

Also, any decent Daemon player is not staying in a small grouping for you to Frag missile, they are spreading out and likely in terrain to get a 4+ cover and minimize the number of hits you can score on the unit with small blasts.

I think it comes down to this: you almost have to build your list around Soul Grinders if you take them, a Daemon Prince can be thrown in.

There are many schools of thought when it comes to Daemons, but almost everyone would agree that if you take a Soul Grinder, you take three. Which basically means you are a list predicated around their success. 555 points and all of your heavy support choices is a substantial investment. Still, it is really the only way to go with the SG. Fielding one is a death wish.

IMHO I feel like taking Soul Grinders is giving up a huge Daemon advantage: the lack of armor. My Daemons laugh off the overly spammed melta that everyone loves. Things like lascannons, multi-meltas, rail guns, and even plasma is relatively irrelevant. It's just an easier to wound roll. When you add in a Soul Grinder or three, you are playing into the meta game that everyone expects and builds against. Daemons remain extremely competitive in an all comers environment if built to counter what everyone spams. Hence why I take no Soul Grinders (though I love the model).

Besides, competitive Daemons are built around the Elites and HQ slots, not the Heavy Support. I take one Daemon Prince at 1500. It's used to bolt and help out in close combat. Building around HS with Daemons is an outdated idea (maybe I could see 3 Nurgle DPs).

Jackal wrote:Why is it everyone see's bolt as the best anti-tank?
Granted its AP1, and then the qualities die.
A S8 anti-tank weapon? ill pass on that one.

The grinder throws out a S10 AP1 shot, so it can actually pen AV14!
The best thing? it can take down a lith aswell.
something thats pretty rare in a daemon army.

So, AP wise the grinder has a much stronger shot.


Anti-infanty - Phlegm, vomit and its harvester can all take care of infantry via shooting, so there isnt much left when it assaults a unit.

The daemons prince would end up tarpitted by alot of units whiloe doing a few wounds each turn.




Dragon - Granted it can be wrecked by such weapons, which would only do a wound to a prince.

However, what can a normal or heavy bolter do to a soul grinder?
Cant even scratch it, but they can chew through wounds on a prince pretty quickly.

Have you ever actually tried playing a model with BS3 as an anti-tank unit? (And please don't say "Imperial guard have BS3"... because they also have 20 shots at S8+)

Yes... bolt is the best anti-tank outside of close combat. I wouldn't spend 160 points on 1 BS3 shot a turn that has a 25% chance of doing damage to a landraider.. and only take it because of landdraiders.

And, again you are assuming that bolter fire is going to be going into the prince and NOT into the infantry of the army. And that your opponent has no anti-tank available for armies they were assuming vehicles would be in.

Just imagine you are your opponent. He is sending a hoard of bloodletters and a daemonprince at you. QUICK!!! SHOOT THE DAEMONPRINCE WITH YOUR BOLTERS!!! Leave the lascannon shots for the bloodletters!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

It might be a good idea to actually read the original post (and my original post) where the OP states he is building a KHORNE daemon army and I suggest that a Tzeetch prince is preferable, but from a shooting perspective they are equally good at taking out Rhinos.

That would be a good idea...

But... daemon princes of Khorne... *Bleh!!!!!*

I guess I was thinking more of a competitive standpoint... where mono-god lists kind of... why???

I guess it is fluffy... :-\

I am not sure how you calculated 555 points for 3 SG's with Tongue, I was under the impression it was ~480. Lascannons, Plasma, Krak missiles, Railguns are just about as good against a DP as they are against a SG. Melta's are the only one I would consider 'subpar' and that is because a Plasma Gun does the job better.

Stating a Daemon army is built around the HQ/Elite slot is 'outdated.' The real question for a Daemon army is...How do I efficiently break armor open?

If you can do that then there are selections in all slots to pulverize the exposed troops. I could just as easily build a Daemon army around the Troops slot (5x Horrors w/ Bolt) to break armor.

I run a mono-Slaanesh list, it is fluffy, looks good on the table, remains fairly competitive (although if they Nerf Fiends it will take a huge hit - I run 12 not 18 since that would defeat the point of it being 'fluffy') and has some interesting diversity most people do not plan for.

I am not sure how you calculated 555 points for 3 SG's with Tongue, I was under the impression it was ~480. Lascannons, Plasma, Krak missiles, Railguns are just about as good against a DP as they are against a SG. Melta's are the only one I would consider 'subpar' and that is because a Plasma Gun does the job better.

I was also including the large blast, which is the most reliable thing SG's can do. Hence the 555. Lascannons, krak missiles, and railguns are much better versus the SG. The reason is that they can one hit it. Melta is especially bad and almost negates getting close.

Stating a Daemon army is built around the HQ/Elite slot is 'outdated.' The real question for a Daemon army is...How do I efficiently break armor open?

Heralds of Tzeentch on Chariots. That is the most efficient way to break armor. That's why I build around them and my Elites slots (which I use for Fiends).

If you can do that then there are selections in all slots to pulverize the exposed troops. I could just as easily build a Daemon army around the Troops slot (5x Horrors w/ Bolt) to break armor.

That is true, though I haven't had very good experiences with Horrors. I find them to be very unreliable and underwhelming.

I run a mono-Slaanesh list, it is fluffy, looks good on the table, remains fairly competitive (although if they Nerf Fiends it will take a huge hit - I run 12 not 18 since that would defeat the point of it being 'fluffy') and has some interesting diversity most people do not plan for.

I run a Slannesh/Tzeentch duo. I don't know why Fiends would be nerfed anytime soon. I don't even think the Daemons codex is on the horizon. And I would agree, most people don't plan for Daemons. They succeed because they are so different. Which is why I stay away from adding armor via the Soul Grinder. You start making the list like most of the other game and they become sub par.

Gotcha, I would never take Phlegm and Tongue - a single WD results takes out both of these which is not worth the utility. To be fair in a comparison to a Tz Prince we need to assume the SG only has Tongue.

Looking at a SG, it is actually better than a DP at shrugging off a single shot. I want to do two comparisons - one just high str weapons and the other with some small arms. I am assuming no cover for all of this and that the results we care about (for pens and glances) are Destroyed and Weapon Destroyed (which removes its ability to kill tanks at range).

SG - Approximate odds to wreck with at least X S8
1 Hit - 15%
2 Hits- 29%
3 Hits- 38%
4 Hits- 48%
5 Hits- 56%

The advantage of a DP, naturally, is it will never die before 4 hits are inflicted. That said for a DP (which is actually exposed to more firepower than a SG anyway...)

DP - Odds to kill with X S8 hits
4 Hits - 1.1%
5 Hits - 12%
6 Hits - 28%
7 Hits - 45%
8 Hits - 61%

Looks pretty good for the DP but these numbers tend to favor it the way I formulated the problem (only S8, no cover, no small arms). Even considering that there are 4 24" bolter shots per missile (standard combat squad) which would make some sense considering the range of Bolt is 24"...

DP - Odds to kill with X combat squads shooting - w/ ML
I am counting hits for this one, so with BS 4 multiply the SG results by 2/3

1 Unit - 1.1%
2 Units - 10%
3 Units - 20%
4 Units - 28%
5 Units - 37%

The SG still has less robustness than a DP, but even with some conservative small arms assumptions these two are much closer, if you add in cover for half the shots then a SG is less likely to be blown to bits after 5 units shoot their arsenal. From experience SG's are much more durable than most people give them credit for.

This, of course, does not even consider the bad matchups for Daemons like Guard, Dark Eldar or the new Storm Boltering GK where there is a plethora of small arms fire floating around (much of which wounds on 4's).

Deepstriking the soulgrinder is far harder when you apply terrain. Look at how big the souldgrinder is and tell me it isn't going to be a chalange to not mishap... or at the very least take dangerous terrain.

caly: How can you factor S9+ as a good thing for the soulgrinder and would favor the Daemon prince? Last I checked... S7,8,9,10 all wound a daemon prince equally as often. Ordinance, melta don't effect the daemon prince at all.

You apply no cover as a favor for the daemon prince, which I can see. But can you honestly factor that the soulgrinder is going to get cover in games most of the time...

And, as stated in my above... WHY SHOOT A DAEMON PRINCE WITH BOLTERS??? Are anti-infantry weapons seriously ignoring the infantry?

You say your not considering the bad matchups for daemons? Well... can you please enlighten me on how any of these make the soulgrinder MORE applealing? because last I checked... guard and DE still have huge amounds of anti-tank... and grey knights... yea i can see that. grey knights don't have a whole lot of anti-tank, so the AV13 would help.

S9 and S10 are certainly better against the SG than the DP, I arbitrarily chosen S8 because it is much more common than 9 or 10 (10 is pretty rare to have multiple long range shots with, 9 is a lascannon which isn't that uncommon) If I implied S9/10 was better against a DP then I misspoke (typed?).

I do not know how much terrain you play with at your shop, but my SG ends up with cover about half the time. There are enough ruins, buildings and hills to obscure half of him. That said, I did all the calculations w/o cover for the grinder and then for comparisons said assume half the time it is in cover and stated a break even. You can take those numbers how you like.

You shoot him with Bolters because (as I said) assume they are attached to the squad with the Missile Launcher?

If you want to argue the ML shouldn't shoot the DP either and should frag the infantry then I guess the DP is invincible because noone should ever shoot at it?

As for matchups...

DE - Ton of poison weapons that can torrent down a DP in short order. Lances can hit either (and are effectively S9 against a SG) but the amount of dedicated firepower you can put into a DP is much higher and the SG can DS further back with its longer range. Once in combat Wyches need a 6 to plant a Grenade on a SG while an Agoniser and normal attacks (admittedly wounding on 6's) can grind out a DP.

IG - Mech: Ubiquitous S6 shooting, Plasma and Melta - the Melta though is only really effective at <6". They bring Lascannons, as well as, some nasty S9 and S10 arillery. That said, getting the 'hole' over a SG is not as easy as it may seem since it is more a tall model than a solid 'blocky' wide model. Further, you really need to shoot down Valks/Vendettas and a SG is better at that than a DP.

IG - Blob: FRF/SRF is a nightmare for a DP, along with orders that enable twin linking against MC (not sure if they can do it to vehicles Fire on my target! I think it is?). They can tarpit and whittle down with 30 bodies, stubborn and a bucket of attacks.

GK: Stormbolters and Bolters at s5 are bad news, plus NFW forcing ld on each wound or ID and a lot of S6 and S7 shooting at ~24". Most their ranged is S8 with psybolts on Dreads which are AV 12 and a SG takes down more easily.

On top of this a SG w/ Tongue comes in at ~160, which is cheaper.

All that said they have disadvantages. You are much more suspectible to that 'lucky turn' where you miss all your shots and they blow all 3 up or 2 up in one go. They also have a larger chance to mishap or at least immobilize themselves by hitting terrain - in spite of the large amount of terrain we play with I have only mishapped my SG's once in over 20 games. Having a good sense of distance and probability is imperative to DS. People also underestimate the importance in the ORDER in which you DS units. I always tend to drop my larger footprint units in first).

Of course you drop the larger units first :-/

I do see your points. Don't get me wrong... but I do wonder how you play with lots of terrain and don't get mishaps?

Also... 25% of the table should be covered. Not exact, but about. That makes it a good amount were hoards or space marines don't get an advantage because there is to much/to little terrain.

BS3 and almost no close combat skill is the main reason I hate the soulgrinder... because with all of its guns, you are winging it when trying to shoot. 50% (a little bit more for the blast) on the to hit... and then you wound (penitrate) and then you do the damage. The chances with toung on AV13 is prety low :-/ Especially for 160 points.

That said, daemon prince with bolt wont do much to AV13 either. Though, it can aslo charge vehiles, which I have found much more useful than relying on my shooting.

daemon Prince is more well rounded in my opinion. It can destroy opponenets from afar and from close proximity.

In none of my games thus far have I found spending 200 points of a Tzeentch prince with flight and Bolt to be less useful than a 160 point model with a large blast. (I have played with Tfex's in tyranids... i know how the tounge turns out...)

You only mishap if you land in impassible terrain and most of what we play with is not impassible. A Ruin, for example, is not impassible but I have immobilized 1 or 2 SG on failed terrain checks.

The SG is actually as good as or better than a DP with Bolt at blowing armor AV 11 or better.

For Phlegm 1/3 of the time a hit is rolled, when it is not (assume shooting at a vehicle) you probably need to scatter less than 2" on average to stay on target. That is a 5 or less on 2d6 which happens 5/18 of the time for a total hit% of around 11/18 which is near 50% as well. The blast really is an infantry killing weapon though (funny story I once fried 16 of my own Daemonettes with it who were in CC with an Avatar w/ 1 wound left...he lived....oops!)

I agree that WS 3 and I 3 is a bummer, but unless you are running your prince with Unholy Might he is hitting and wounding marines on 3+, which is 4/9 (44%) a chance to wound. A DP hits on 4+ and wounds on 2+ which is 5/12 (41%) chance to wound. The advantage of WS 7 is applicable primarily to GEQ which the DP is better at killing, but the SG is just about immune to their attacks (they need Melta Bombs or an Eviscerator/Chainfist to touch it).

The Init downside is sometimes an advantage against marines, but against fleeing troops with a meltagun my SG cries a little on the inside.

As you want a Khorne list, I think the SG best complements the rest of your army. As others have said, it would be a much closer call for Tzeentch, but that's not what you're looking for.

In a khorne themed list.. there is no question that the soulgrinder is better. Though, i can't see a Khone themed list being competitive.

I just can't think of daemons with vehicles :-| It is... unnatural (to the point that daemons are natural of course)

This conversation has given me some good info on the soulgrinder. I am not convinced it is the best choice... but I can also see how points limits would make an impact as well.

I recently played a friendly 1500 point game with my non monolith Necron Army. Remember this is a NON Monolith Army. These are the Rare Necron Raiders. All metal models. I rarely play them due to the fact of its beauty, it's rarity, and its paint job has won a few awards over the years They are mostly on display until a get the urge to play a friendly game with them. My main units are Immortals and scarabs. People generally have forgotten on just how useful these models are for its points.

My opponent was playing a Khorne/Tzeenesh list with a Grinder in it.

Kill points. 12 inch deployment. He won the dice roll and gave me first turn. I did my up and then stated my turn is over and handed it back to him in which he deep struck his units in (including the Grinder). The Grinder of course use it fleet move to get closer to assault my main blob of units. On my turn, fired 40 shots from my immortals (2 units of 10) while they moved six inches away the Grinder. Got it immobilized and effectively won the game because of it due to the fact that my army was consistently moving (using veil as well) and shooting and assaulting with my scarabs (10 scarabs ate up 10 horrors on an assault). I won 3 to 2 in KP. His dangerous units were the Blood crushers and Flamers (flamers are nasty).

To me Grinders are an all or nothing shot. It did not get any benefit of terrain in that game. It got immobilized on my first shooting phase. The person playing against me is an experienced and capable player. His army list was pretty sound.

I told him after the game if he would have put more points into something else than a Grinder, he would have won the game, and I explained the reasons why as posted here on this site. And that is what he is thinking about.

He'll Probably get more flamers.

I'd say try them both, and see what works for you.