ITC Nerfs Tau Again. Avoid the ITC if you can folks.

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**Tinkrr**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Reading these last few posts makes me think that 40K is a lost cause.

The only way forwards is to burn it all and start again.

The problem is the company that makes it doesn't care about the game, so all the rot starts at the head and everyone else is just putting bandages on it in hopes of making it functional enough to actually play.

**Lord Corellia**

ERJAK wrote:
Play Sisters of Battle from now on. I GUARANTEE that no ruling by ITC or ANYONE ELSE will EVER impact your army in any way. Impossible to get nerfed if no one remembers you exist.

LOL, I was wondering how long it would take for the "at least you don't play SISTERS!" whingers to come out of the woodwork. First page, I'm impressed! I didn't think any of you lot paid much attention anymore, what with your army barely even being a part of 40K

**Talys**

Lord Corellia wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
Play Sisters of Battle from now on. I GUARANTEE that no ruling by ITC or ANYONE ELSE will EVER impact your army in any way. Impossible to get nerfed if no one remembers you exist.

LOL, I was wondering how long it would take for the "at least you don't play SISTERS!" whingers to come out of the woodwork. First page, I'm impressed! I didn't think any of you lot paid much attention anymore, what with your army barely even being a part of 40K

hahahahaha. I was wondering the same thing

**RiTides**

Regarding the Tyrranocyte ruling, and eventual vote leading to a reversal:

gigasnail wrote:
I started with comments to Reece here on dakka (I don't post a lot so I can track down links if you want, won't be too difficult), and then on comments on FLG articles. I didn't see an issue that needed correcting, as the unit is overcosted and not anything close to OP, and there being no rules issue/ambiguity (there was confusion when the rules popped in WD, because there is some really dumb flavor text in the margins of the article, but nothing even hinting using vehicle rules for firing arcs in the actual rules). The ruling made an already iffy unit marginal at best for competition.

Reece's responses seemed kind of blase, and I know he has larger issues to manage than one players gripes, but as others have pointed out the ITC shapes local rules and tournaments and I had been pushing the guys I play with towards the ITC FAQ just to have a consistent framework.

So I went to the http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/ and we had a lot of discussion (some of it quite heated, as folks have noted just because something is clear to you, doesn't mean it's undisputed) about the pods and the ITC in general. I encouraged everyone to get over to FLG and make thier voices (politely!) heard, or the issue wasn't going to get addressed.

It took a few months but we kept piping in whenever the issue was mentioned, and eventually we had enough people asking about it where they put it to a vote. I have no idea how many of our guys at TTH actually put in votes, but I like to think we made a difference. The vote was pretty close.

There were a number of people involved in this (westrider and kwood to name the first two that come to mind); I do not want to imply this was a solo effort.

For what its worth, Reece has since said the initial decision on the pods was back when they were on the...eh, name escapes me I think he called it the FAQ council, it was the body that brain storms up the issues for several of the big national tournaments (I dunno I have the name of that right, I'm sure someone will correct me) and it was leftover from before they really started putting out thier own FAQ for the ITC.

tl;dr: I disagreed, and talked to everyone I knew with an interest in nids to get the issue out there, and we voted when the chance came up. ITC effects a lot of people even the guys like me that only play locally.

Edit: I didn't say above specifically, but yeah I emailed several times over the time period to their feedback/questions address. They're pretty good about getting back with you.

That is an extremely helpful writeup of the process you went through, gigasnail! I really appreciate you taking the time to share that

Luckily it sounds like the Ghostkeel should be on the next ballot and so all that might not be needed. Wouldn't hurt to email Frontline if anyone wants to make sure, though!

**gigasnail**

no problem boss. glad to do what I can to help.

**culsandar**

Yeah that OP Tau codex sure has made it to Top 8 at the LVO. It's running amuck, let me tell you.

**Crimson Devil**

Top 8 has a lot more to do with the players involved than the codex they are playing.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Not entirely.

**Tinkrr**

Stop, just stop. There were two Tau players competing for top 8 in the last round, they were tables 3 and 4, they lost to Demons and Necrons. Tau had all the capability of making top 8, they just missed out in the last bit. Both Tau lists were completely different too, one was FSE with Ghostkeel and stuff, while the other was a basic CAD with double Stormsurges and a Riptide Wing.

You know who wasn't in the top 8 competition? War Convocation, no War Convocation list was able to make top 8 in the last round, as none were in the top 16 going into that round. More so the finals were Eldar vs. Eldar, so clearly the ITC has the massive Imperium bias I keep hearing about, right :/.

**Swampmist**

Hey, atleast Eldar finally won a major tourney. Maybe now we can have the nerfs go to revote and actually pass

**DarkLink**

Tinkrr wrote:
Stop, just stop. There were two Tau players competing for top 8 in the last round, they were tables 3 and 4, they lost to Demons and Necrons. Tau had all the capability of making top 8, they just missed out in the last bit. Both Tau lists were completely different too, one was FSE with Ghostkeel and stuff, while the other was a basic CAD with double Stormsurges and a Riptide Wing.

You know who wasn't in the top 8 competition? War Convocation, no War Convocation list was able to make top 8 in the last round, as none were in the top 16 going into that round. More so the finals were Eldar vs. Eldar, so clearly the ITC has the massive Imperium bias I keep hearing about, right :/.

Yeah, and only one SM battle company too? They just didn't nerf xenos hard enough. I can see Reece and Frankie fuming at the front table now that their chosen people didn't win out /sarcasm/.

**Tinkrr**

DarkLink wrote:
Tinkrr wrote:
Stop, just stop. There were two Tau players competing for top 8 in the last round, they were tables 3 and 4, they lost to Demons and Necrons. Tau had all the capability of making top 8, they just missed out in the last bit. Both Tau lists were completely different too, one was FSE with Ghostkeel and stuff, while the other was a basic CAD with double Stormsurges and a Riptide Wing.

You know who wasn't in the top 8 competition? War Convocation, no War Convocation list was able to make top 8 in the last round, as none were in the top 16 going into that round. More so the finals were Eldar vs. Eldar, so clearly the ITC has the massive Imperium bias I keep hearing about, right :/.

Yeah, and only one SM battle company too? They just didn't nerf xenos hard enough. I can see Reece and Frankie fuming at the front table now that their chosen people didn't win out /sarcasm/.

Come tomorrow he's going to launch a full out WAAAAGH! on the xenos!

That being said, one thing that really surprised me, outside of War Convocation not having a chance of top 8 at all, is that no Orks lists were there either. I figured with the super cheap Stompa at least one would sneak in, but I guess not enough people were running it to get there?

One thing that would be cool to see is how many people played a given army, if they had a lot of Tau and only made it that far, maybe it's something, but I'm guessing there was a lot more BC than Tau out there, and only one made it to the end.

**X078**

Wait what so now that the (many many) nerfed Tau armies playing did not make it to the top 8 the reason is that they were...

... drumroll...

unlucky?

And WarCon being superstrong not making it says what?

**Frozocrone**

That nerfed Tau is better than War Convocation?

Maybe we can have a vote on Eldar since they won...

**X078**

Frozocrone wrote:
That nerfed Tau is better than War Convocation?

Hehe yeah maybe

Don't think so though

Frozocrone wrote:

Maybe we can have a vote on Eldar since they won...

I hope they un-nerf everything else and leave Eldar alone.

**Tinkrr**

X078 wrote:
Wait what so now that the (many many) nerfed Tau armies playing did not make it to the top 8 the reason is that they were...

... drumroll...

unlucky?

And WarCon being superstrong not making it says what?

You do understand the difference was that Tau had two potential players making it into the top 8 in the last round, and both lost that last round, that's bad luck. War Convocation had zero people competing for top 8 in the last round, which can still be chalked up to luck to an extent, but it's significantly worse than the Tau.

Again, I'll repeat, there was a Tau player on table 3 and 4 in the last round before the top 8, there was no War Convocation player in the top 8 table (top 16 players) in the last round before top 8. There was easily a chance of up to Tau players in the top 8, there was zero chance of War Convocation.

**alex0911**

Is it me or its time to close this thread ? I mean 13 pages of taus whinning.... PLZ lets ignore them

**Gamgee**

Tau didn't make top 8, I'm getting ready for the next round of nerfs to be unveiled as the only fitting course of events for this.

Also just because they have an Imperium bias doesn't mean they can't have an Eldar one too.

**Swampmist**

But... THEY DID MAKE TOP 8!!! TWICE INFACT!!!

**Gamgee**

So nerfs either way?

**niv-mizzet**

Izzy's tau actually went undefeated. Unfortunately it was 4w2d0L which made him unable to hit top 8. Either one of those draws being a win and he would've been in, knocking out Aleong's wolfravenstar.

Of course, this being the Internet, the goalposts would move anyway. If one made top 8, someone would be like "y you no make top 7!?" anyway.

**Kilkrazy**

Tinkrr wrote:
X078 wrote:
Wait what so now that the (many many) nerfed Tau armies playing did not make it to the top 8 the reason is that they were...

... drumroll...

unlucky?

And WarCon being superstrong not making it says what?

You do understand the difference was that Tau had two potential players making it into the top 8 in the last round, and both lost that last round, that's bad luck. War Convocation had zero people competing for top 8 in the last round, which can still be chalked up to luck to an extent, but it's significantly worse than the Tau.

Again, I'll repeat, there was a Tau player on table 3 and 4 in the last round before the top 8, there was no War Convocation player in the top 8 table (top 16 players) in the last round before top 8. There was easily a chance of up to Tau players in the top 8, there was zero chance of War Convocation.

To look at this from a theoretical viewpoint is that an argument for doing minor nerfs to Tau (the Ghost Keel Holophotons) or an argument for giving War Convocation a boost?

Is it actually the role of ITC to boost factions that GW have left badly sub-par? I don't think ITC would want to go down that road.

As I understand it, the AdMech isn't really a complete codex, though offering more choices than Knights. Should players realistically expect to be competitive when really their codex is actually actually to sell some cool kits for use as allies in IG or SM armies?

**RiTides**

Swampmist - They were near the top in an earlier round (6 I believe?) but lost before the top 8 were finalized.

It was really cool watching the live stream

although I do think some of the rulings that had to be made really quickly for the event will be put up for vote... maybe in the future Tau can put Eldar in in check a bit?

Anything is better than just one army dominating, imo! Awesome to see Sean Nayden running 5 Talos in his army at the top table in the finals, though, he always seems to come up with something unique

(I know it was the formation special rules he was really after, but still!)

**Gamgee**

Where can I see his list and this info?

**Frozocrone**

They'll probably post the lists on FLG.

**RiTides**

Top 8 lists are posted here, just scroll down a bit:

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/02/07/lvo-40k-championships-day-3-live-blog/

Really fantastic coverage by the Frontline crew and everyone involved in streaming / blogging / etc this event

**Gamgee**

That's where I looked I see no Tau in the top 8. What are you guys talking about?

**1PlusLogan**

Only 2 Tau in top 16, both with different lists. Literally unplayable race, ITC has broken the game.

Disclaimer: This is obvious sarcasm.

Much better result than I had expected! With that said, looking forward to the next poll as I know some of the FAQ updates were there specifically to have a firm ruling in place for LVO.

**jreilly89**

RiTides wrote:
Top 8 lists are posted here, just scroll down a bit:

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/02/07/lvo-40k-championships-day-3-live-blog/

Really fantastic coverage by the Frontline crew and everyone involved in streaming / blogging / etc this event

Sadly that Top 8 is what I expected. White Scars spam, Ravenwing bike spam, DEldar best friends, and Super Crons.

Surprised Daemons made it, until I saw it was Fateweaver, Be'lakor, Screamers, and Pink Horrors.

**X078**

Tinkrr wrote:
X078 wrote:
Wait what so now that the (many many) nerfed Tau armies playing did not make it to the top 8 the reason is that they were...

... drumroll...

unlucky?

And WarCon being superstrong not making it says what?

You do understand the difference was that Tau had two potential players making it into the top 8 in the last round, and both lost that last round, that's bad luck. War Convocation had zero people competing for top 8 in the last round, which can still be chalked up to luck to an extent, but it's significantly worse than the Tau.

Again, I'll repeat, there was a Tau player on table 3 and 4 in the last round before the top 8, there was no War Convocation player in the top 8 table (top 16 players) in the last round before top 8. There was easily a chance of up to Tau players in the top 8, there was zero chance of War Convocation.

I do not think it is a matter of potentionally two Tau players almost making it or not, as much as it is that people probably expected to see at least 50% Tau in the top because of all the nerfs and op-crying they recieved. Even after the nerfs they were said to be super good so one would reasonable expect several competing in the top 8 finals.
Anyways, there is know a first sample of empirical data stating otherwise.