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All people are weighed exactly the same. By the quality of the person. All peoples opinions are weighed exactly the same. By the quality of their argument.
A different person might have a different perspective to bring to the table due to their differences. In fact, it's basically guaranteed that that will be the case with every single person you ever meet. Their different perspective doesn't make their opinion more valid, it just means they might be bringing something new you might not have thought of because they are them and you are you. Weigh it intelligently.
I agree with this statement; however, there is a difference between an informed and uninformed opinion. I wouldn't discount someone's interest in what a person of the opposite sex thinks about this topic as they are likely looking to create a more informed opinion. If you approach it from a more positive standpoint, you could infer that the person asking is showing sensitivity for whether a woman might find something offensive. I, personally, may be ambivalent about "boob armor" but if several women were to step forward and present an opinion, as the subject matter is women, not men, I could develop a better informed opinion for myself regarding whether the subject is offensive or not. I'm not asking someone to make my mind up for me but I would be asking them to help me come to a conclusion.
If I ask a carpenter (with no background in the subject) about astrophysics, he/she might have an opinion on the subject but I'd be more apt to let the comments of an astrophysicist weigh on the development of my opinion than that of the carpenter with no background in astrophysics. My asking the astrophysicist for their opinion on astrophysics does not detract from the opinion of the carpenter, who may have a unique perspective on the subject, but it does add to the discussion and helps me to formulate my own opinion.
I get what your saying, but what you are saying is the same thing as me in a more specific way without taking some factors into account.
A man can come to you and present the same arguments that 5 women do against boob armor. That mans opinion is the same as those women. His arguments carry the same logical weight. If the only thing that prevented you from hearing what that guy had to say is the fact that he has a penis then you are corrupting the conversation. The fact that it is a man does not mean he has not put his nose in the books and studied the issues of inequality and the way gender issues are presented in media effects the way people treat the genders. That man could be your astrophysicist.
By the same token those 5 women may have never given equality issues a second thought and they may be your carpenter.
Treating a woman's opinion as more valid simply because she is a woman is JUST AS destructive as treating it as less. A persons differences do not matter.
The only valid way to weigh their opinions, and thus their "professional opinion" is by the quality of their argument.
A most excellent point, perhaps put most succinctly by Maimonides;
-"The Truth is the Truth, no matter the source."
Or to reference an earlier aside, in some instances Hitler is correct and Gandhi is wrong: the content of an argument is independent of the moral character of the advocate.
Lance845 wrote: The point of feminism and all the studies associated with it is not that women want equality. It's that people want equality.
Just as a point of quibble. People do not actually want equality... this is the wrong term. They really want equity. When someone says they want equality they are usually asking for the wrong thing.
No. You are wrong.
Feminism does not want to be given things to make up for short comings to create a universally balanced playing field for all involved. Feminism understands that 2 different people are 2 different people and should be weighed by the merits of the person.
What feminism and the equality movements are asking for is to NOT be judged based on irrelevant factors.
I understand that there are people who want equity. Equity is a inherently flawed concept. Equality is the idea that when you do interviews for a job posting you only take into account whether or not they are the best fit for the job. Not if they are black. Not if they are a woman. Not if they are gay. Just whether or not that person is the best fit for the position.
You don't treat this person different because she is a woman (be that better or worse). You treat this person like you would treat anyone else because they are a person.
The idea is not that a man should not hit a woman. That is not some bigger and worse crime because he is a he and she is a she. A person shouldn't be hitting anybody. If you cannot live with someone without resorting to violence then you are a monster. It doesn't mater who the person you're hitting is.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Lance845 wrote: The point of feminism and all the studies associated with it is not that women want equality. It's that people want equality.
Just as a point of quibble. People do not actually want equality... this is the wrong term. They really want equity. When someone says they want equality they are usually asking for the wrong thing.
No. You are wrong.
Feminism does not want to be given things to make up for short comings to create a universally balanced playing field for all involved. Feminism understands that 2 different people are 2 different people and should be weighed by the merits of the person.
What feminism and the equality movements are asking for is to NOT be judged based on irrelevant factors.
I understand that there are people who want equity. Equity is a inherently flawed concept. Equality is the idea that when you do interviews for a job posting you only take into account whether or not they are the best fit for the job. Not if they are black. Not if they are a woman. Not if they are gay. Just whether or not that person is the best fit for the position.
You don't treat this person different because she is a woman (be that better or worse). You treat this person like you would treat anyone else because they are a person.
The idea is not that a man should not hit a woman. That is not some bigger and worse crime because he is a he and she is a she. A person shouldn't be hitting anybody. If you cannot live with someone without resorting to violence then you are a monster. It doesn't mater who the person you're hitting is.
Thank you, that was well-put.
Note that equity says that the person's ability to do a job is irrelevant - you just give them boxes to stand on even if they're not competent.
Are you saying the differences between 2 people shouldn't make anyones opinion matter more or less?
In this circumstance, they shouldn't. If a confessed pervert enjoys Boob Armour, the validity of his opinion may come into question (although it still holds validity to a degree). Being a man or woman is not nearly enough to increase or decrease the validity of your opinion.
well then answer this, what do you think of women breast feeding in public? or women going topless? considering the items in question also refer to what you call being apparent on miniatures, too be honest I see no problem but then again the only female miniatures I have are the ones that came in my Sedition wars games, I have no SoB's or even fluffy eye candy miniatures.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/20 19:37:36
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
I get what your saying, but what you are saying is the same thing as me in a more specific way without taking some factors into account.
A man can come to you and present the same arguments that 5 women do against boob armor. That mans opinion is the same as those women. His arguments carry the same logical weight. If the only thing that prevented you from hearing what that guy had to say is the fact that he has a penis then you are corrupting the conversation. The fact that it is a man does not mean he has not put his nose in the books and studied the issues of inequality and the way gender issues are presented in media effects the way people treat the genders. That man could be your astrophysicist.
By the same token those 5 women may have never given equality issues a second thought and they may be your carpenter.
Treating a woman's opinion as more valid simply because she is a woman is JUST AS destructive as treating it as less. A persons differences do not matter.
The only valid way to weigh their opinions, and thus their "professional opinion" is by the quality of their argument.
Interesting. We agree in general but seem to differ on a fairly minor point. Thanks for your perspective!
I wouldn't say that I would treat the woman's opinion as more valid but I would say that it carries more credibility on certain matters than a typical male's. I don't have breasts and most men don't have breasts so if I have questions about breasts, I'll ask a woman rather than a man (unless the man happens to be a doctor). In the same vein, the common perception of society is that women deal more regularly with the consequences of sexist behavior so would be more apt to a) have experienced it personally b) be more familiar with related feelings on the topic and therefor potentially have a more informed opinion on the subject. I can be uncomfortable with imagery for a number of reasons so a perspective from women might help me to separate where my feelings are coming from (religious, cultural, etc).
I would be interested in something like a poll that resulted in a comparison of perspective based upon gender, just to see if there was a difference between male and female perspective.
A bit off topic, sorry, just interesting conversation.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
The whole concept is stupid and immature. Yes it is AN aesthetic. It is certainly a choice. But it's not a good one and it doesn't have any particular benefits that make it outweigh a design choice that is actually respectful, tasteful, carrys some class, and does the fluff some justice.
If you could make this
then what good reason could you possibly have to make this
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/20 19:44:29
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Asterios wrote: well then answer this, what do you think of women breast feeding in public? or women going topless?
Seriously? That's where you're going with the discussion?
And for the record, both of those are totally OK. New York City supports such equality, for example.
and yet having armor in the shape of boobs over their chests is offensive? oooh the irony.
people keep pouncing on well boob armor doesn't work, who the feth cares? seriously, most things in 40K do not work in real life, the game is not real life it is science fiction fantasy, plain and simple, and if you don't like it, don't play it plain and simple what it comes down to is if you don't like Boob Armor on SoB's then don't play them, seriously, too argue about something you can so easily ignore is a fething joke, its just your way of saying "hey look at me I have high morale standards and how dare this company or people who use said miniatures don't, shame on them they should be disgusted they are perverts and so forth".
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
Or you could make this costume (sisters as they should be)
I am not saying to get rid of the Grim Dark. I am saying that if you can have the core elements of batgirls costume without shoving each of her tits into a rubber bowl then you can probably do the same with the sisters.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Lance845 wrote: You could make this costume (sister as they are)
Spoiler:
Or you could make this costume (sisters as they should be)
I am not saying to get rid of the Grim Dark. I am saying that if you can have the core elements of batgirls costume without shoving each of her tits into a rubber bowl then you can probably do the same with the sisters.
yeah but if you take Batgirl's spandex costume and compare it with her cohorts Batman and Robin in the same movie, which ones are more sexually prevalent? (face it all the good guys costumes in that movie were just plain wrong).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/20 19:55:59
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
well then answer this, what do you think of women breast feeding in public?
Couldn't find where I said women's opinions don't matter? Thought so.
In my opinion, a women has the right to breast feed in public. However, out of decency, I would say they should try going somewhere more private to feed their child, since it can make paedophobics like me very uncomfortable if I happen to be passing by (wouldn't be just paedophobes who might feel uncomfortable, too). I would accept the need to do it in busy areas out of urgency, however, or if a more private location is not immediately present.
Just don't do it while you're sitting having a meal or a drink at a cafe or restaurant. That's being pretty rude to other patrons who want to enjoy their morning coffee or their evening dinner.
If a woman wants to go topless, that's fine and legal too, just please don't do it around or in a place where children might go. Whether you think children should be allowed see your charlies is totally irrelevant in the face of common decency.
considering the items in question also refer to what you call being apparent on miniatures
Now who would want a Battle Sister breast feeding her child? That'd be a hoot!
But seriously, that's a ridiculous statement to make.
to be honest I see no problem but then again the only female miniatures I have are the ones that came in my Sedition wars games, I have no SoB's or even fluffy eye candy miniatures.
I don't own any female miniatures, although I'll probably be getting Eldar soon. Regardless, I'm pretty certain the themes of breastfeeding and going commando for females will not be present in any models I buy. What a shame.
well then answer this, what do you think of women breast feeding in public?
Couldn't find where I said women's opinions don't matter? Thought so.
In my opinion, a women has the right to breast feed in public. However, out of decency, I would say they should try going somewhere more private to feed their child, since it can make paedophobics like me very uncomfortable if I happen to be passing by (wouldn't be just paedophobes who might feel uncomfortable, too). I would accept the need to do it in busy areas out of urgency, however, or if a more private location is not immediately present.
Just don't do it while you're sitting having a meal or a drink at a cafe or restaurant. That's being pretty rude to other patrons who want to enjoy their morning coffee or their evening dinner.
If a woman wants to go topless, that's fine and legal too, just please don't do it around or in a place where children might go. Whether you think children should be allowed see your charlies is totally irrelevant in the face of common decency.
considering the items in question also refer to what you call being apparent on miniatures
Now who would want a Battle Sister breast feeding her child? That'd be a hoot!
But seriously, that's a ridiculous statement to make.
to be honest I see no problem but then again the only female miniatures I have are the ones that came in my Sedition wars games, I have no SoB's or even fluffy eye candy miniatures.
I don't own any female miniatures, although I'll probably be getting Eldar soon. Regardless, I'm pretty certain the themes of breastfeeding and going commando for females will not be present in any models I buy. What a shame.
so in other words you are a prude and women shouldn't have equal rights as men just like all the women out their protesting that they should have the right to breast feed in public or go around topless where men are aloud to go topless.
got news for you miniature gaming is not for you, you should find a more appropriate game like go fish, or battleship.
also as shown in my closeup picture of my sedition war female in Boob plate armor, that didn't bother me, what bothered me were the 6 pack abs she was spouting, they made me jealous, mine haven't been like that in a few decades at least.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/20 20:00:13
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
Asterios wrote: so in other words you are a prude and women shouldn't have equal rights as men just like all the women out [there] protesting that they should have the right to breast feed in public or go around topless where men are [allowed] to go topless.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
No
got news for you miniature gaming is not for you, you should find a more appropriate game like go fish, or battleship.
Somehow my thoughts on common decency mean I can't enjoy painting, collecting, and gaming with models I buy with my own hard earned money?
My friend, I don't think Dakka Discussions are for you.
G.A
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/20 20:09:43
Lance845 wrote: You could make this costume (sister as they are)
Spoiler:
Or you could make this costume (sisters as they should be)
I am not saying to get rid of the Grim Dark. I am saying that if you can have the core elements of batgirls costume without shoving each of her tits into a rubber bowl then you can probably do the same with the sisters.
yeah but if you take Batgirl's spandex costume and compare it with her cohorts Batman and Robin in the same movie, which ones are more sexually prevalent? (face it all the good guys costumes in that movie were just plain wrong).
Irrelevant!
Too much of this conversation is tied up in the idea that an individuals perspective on whether the gear is sexualized or not is good or bad. Doesn't mater.
Batman's bat nipples have been a turn on for exactly 0 people. That is not the point.
The point is you are doing the design no favors by building the armor to look like something a child came up with when he started having health class and learned about puberty. You don't need tits cups to make sisters of battle. There is no argument in favor of tit cups that says it's in any way a good design choice. Stronger designs feature more respectful choices that put the focus of the design on their bad ass aspects instead of the immature nonsense that goes into the design they have now.
so in other words you are a prude and women shouldn't have equal rights as men just like all the women out their protesting that they should have the right to breast feed in public or go around topless where men are aloud to go topless.
got news for you miniature gaming is not for you, you should find a more appropriate game like go fish, or battleship.
also as shown in my closeup picture of my sedition war female in Boob plate armor, that didn't bother me, what bothered me were the 6 pack abs she was spouting, they made me jealous, mine haven't been like that in a few decades at least.
Personally I think guys who walk around outside shirtless look like idiots and they should put on a shirt because the general public doesn't want to see that gak. The same goes for women. Keep it classy people.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/20 20:08:17
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
The point is you are doing the design no favors by building the armor to look like something a child came up with when he started having health class and learned about puberty. You don't need tits cups to make sisters of battle. There is no argument in favor of tit cups that says it's in any way a good design choice.
What about style? I don't think the extras on their armour are a turn on for most people, but they do lend well to the 40k over the top style, as well as reinforcing that Sisters are not Space Marines.
The point is you are doing the design no favors by building the armor to look like something a child came up with when he started having health class and learned about puberty. You don't need tits cups to make sisters of battle. There is no argument in favor of tit cups that says it's in any way a good design choice.
What about style? I don't think the extras on their armour are a turn on for most people, but they do lend well to the 40k over the top style, as well as reinforcing that Sisters are not Space Marines.
Which extras are we talking? The Fleur-de-lis and I's? Because you could have a big Fleur-de-lis engraved on the front of their breastplate without giant boob cups and would do enough to separate them from Space Marine armour. I mean, Inquisitors in power armour look different enough to Space Marines due to their iconography and how it is incorporated into their armour.
Have the Sisters armour feature more embellishment and symbols, make it a piece of art as opposed to the more utilitarian look of the space marines.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/10/20 20:19:20
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
The point is you are doing the design no favors by building the armor to look like something a child came up with when he started having health class and learned about puberty. You don't need tits cups to make sisters of battle. There is no argument in favor of tit cups that says it's in any way a good design choice.
What about style? I don't think the extras on their armour are a turn on for most people, but they do lend well to the 40k over the top style, as well as reinforcing that Sisters are not Space Marines.
Adorn the gak out of their armor. Details everywhere. Purity seals hanging off of purity seals. Their iconography is iconic. Incorporate it. That doesn't mean slap one in the middle of each tit.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Asterios wrote: so in other words you are a prude and women shouldn't have equal rights as men just like all the women out [there] protesting that they should have the right to breast feed in public or go around topless where men are [allowed] to go topless.
(also stupid auto-correct is a pain in the rear.)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
No
got news for you miniature gaming is not for you, you should find a more appropriate game like go fish, or battleship.
Somehow my thoughts on common decency mean I can't enjoy painting, collecting, and gaming with models I buy with my own hard earned money?
My friend, I don't think Dakka Discussions are for you.
G.A
well lets start with your statement you contradicted yourself so much it was not funny, you say you are fine with women breast feeding in public, as long as they do it in private? which is it public or private?
as to the game if you have an issue with something you claimed you do not buy then why bother having an issue with it ? I don't think Dakka discussions are for you.
so in other words you are a prude and women shouldn't have equal rights as men just like all the women out their protesting that they should have the right to breast feed in public or go around topless where men are aloud to go topless.
got news for you miniature gaming is not for you, you should find a more appropriate game like go fish, or battleship.
also as shown in my closeup picture of my sedition war female in Boob plate armor, that didn't bother me, what bothered me were the 6 pack abs she was spouting, they made me jealous, mine haven't been like that in a few decades at least.
Personally I think guys who walk around outside shirtless look like idiots and they should put on a shirt because the general public doesn't want to see that gak. The same goes for women. Keep it classy people.
so you think guys should wear shirts at the pool and at the beach then ? you know while tanning and sun bathing?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/20 20:20:55
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
Which extras are we talking? The Fleur-de-lis and I's? Because you could have a big Fleur-de-lis engraved on the front of their breastplate without giant boob cups and would do enough to separate them from Space Marine armour. I mean, Inquisitors in power armour look different enough to Space Marines due to their iconography and how it is incorporated into their armour.
Have the Sisters armour feature more embellishment and symbols, make it a piece of art as opposed to the more utilitarian look of the space marines.
Lance845 wrote:
Adorn the gak out of their armor. Details everywhere. Purity seals hanging off of purity seals. Their iconography is iconic. Incorporate it. That doesn't mean slap one in the middle of each tit.
These are two very good points. I was trying to get more at the breastplate size rather than the decoration, but now that I think about it, that could work quite well in making a new sculpt of Sisters.
Asterios wrote:
well lets start with your statement you contradicted yourself so much it was not funny, you say you are fine with women breast feeding in public, as long as they do it in private? which is it public or private?
General Annoyance wrote: a woman has the right to breast feed in public. However, out of decency, I would say they should try going somewhere more private to feed their child, since it can make paedophobics like me very uncomfortable if I happen to be passing by (wouldn't be just paedophobes who might feel uncomfortable, too). I would accept the need to do it in busy areas out of urgency, however, or if a more private location is not immediately present.
Again proving you didn't bother to read before you started typing.
as to the game if you have an issue with something you claimed you do not buy then why bother having an issue with it ? I don't think Dakka discussions are for you.
You don't own any SoB either. Way to go for shooting yourself in the foot with that one
I don't have an issue with SoB armour either, as I said previously:
General Annoyance wrote: I don't care either way if "Boobplate" is to stay or go, and personally I've never thought about it when I see a Sister model.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/20 20:34:46
General Annoyance wrote: In my opinion, a women has the right to breast feed in public. However, out of decency, I would say they should try going somewhere more private to feed their child, since it can make paedophobics like me very uncomfortable if I happen to be passing by (wouldn't be just paedophobes who might feel uncomfortable, too). I would accept the need to do it in busy areas out of urgency, however, or if a more private location is not immediately present.
Just don't do it while you're sitting having a meal or a drink at a cafe or restaurant. That's being pretty rude to other patrons who want to enjoy their morning coffee or their evening dinner.
If a woman wants to go topless, that's fine and legal too, just please don't do it around or in a place where children might go.
Now who would want a Battle Sister breast feeding her child?
Anywhere someone can drink a coffee or soda, a child should be able to breastfeed. That means, at any cafe, any restaurant. It's not rude at all. It's just someone having a drink. It's totally natural. They should have their faces in their mother's pair for the first year of life. Preferably 2 years. http://www.who.int/topics/breastfeeding/en/
There is nothing wrong with children seeing breasts.
Anywhere someone can drink a coffee or soda, a child should be able to breastfeed. That means, at any cafe, any restaurant. It's not rude at all. It's just someone having a drink. It's totally natural. They should have their faces in their mother's pair for the first year of life. Preferably 2 years. http://www.who.int/topics/breastfeeding/en/
There is nothing wrong with children seeing breasts.
I'm sure someone would...
They have the right to both, absolutely, but if it were me, I'd try and be more discreet out of decency to others; while I might personally be okay with someone breastfeeding in a cafe or walking about with their top off, others may be put off their afternoon tea, or be upset that their child is seeing some girl "naked".
They both are and should be legal anywhere, but be aware of others when you're out in public, in the same way you're aware of others when you deal with any dirt your dog left behind on the pavement.
JohnHwangDD wrote: No, I'm saying that it's incredibly dumb and unrelated of you to raise breastfeeding as part of this discussion.
so you are saying it is better to see bare breasts in public then breasts covered by boob armor on miniatures?
I already stated, which you ignored, that I have no problem with bare breasts.
I am also OK with boob armor.
I am not OK with you trying to conflate the two, as I see them as unrelated.
but the question wasn't directed at you but another which it ended up proving their contrary nature where they even showed conflict within one sentence.
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
but the question wasn't directed at you but another which it ended up proving their contrary nature where they even showed conflict within one sentence.
Anywhere someone can drink a coffee or soda, a child should be able to breastfeed. That means, at any cafe, any restaurant. It's not rude at all. It's just someone having a drink. It's totally natural. They should have their faces in their mother's pair for the first year of life. Preferably 2 years. http://www.who.int/topics/breastfeeding/en/
There is nothing wrong with children seeing breasts.
I'm sure someone would...
They have the right to both, absolutely, but if it were me, I'd try and be more discreet out of decency to others; while I might personally be okay with someone breastfeeding in a cafe or walking about with their top off, others may be put off their afternoon tea, or be upset that their child is seeing some girl "naked".
They both are and should be legal anywhere, but be aware of others when you're out in public, in the same way you're aware of others when you deal with any dirt your dog left behind on the pavement.
out of decency you say? so when you were born you were born fully clothed? decency is just a moniker placed by people, we had to invent clothing we were not born with it.
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
out of decency you say? so when you were born you were born fully clothed? decency is just a moniker placed by people, we had to invent clothing we were not born with it.
You should stop before you embarrass yourself any further. By your logic everyone should run about naked in public all the time. You can't compare childbirth to a girl who wants to take her top off
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/20 20:49:31
out of decency you say? so when you were born you were born fully clothed? decency is just a moniker placed by people, we had to invent clothing we were not born with it.
You should stop before you embarrass yourself any further. By your logic everyone should run about naked in public all the time. You can't compare childbirth to a girl who wants to take her top off
but you can compare a boob armor on a small miniature to things a sexual deviant or pervert would buy?
also if people did go around nude they would have nothing to hide Piers Anthony wrote an interesting book series called Apprentice Adept, you should read it. its about a world were 99% of the people walk around nude, men, women and children and that the wearing of clothing is forbidden except to the higher class and certain situations and where wearing clothes is a sexual stimulation for people.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/20 21:02:43
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
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