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For my raider/rhino rush army with zerkers and chosen, I can't decide which HQ works best with the list.

Kharn is who im using now and the pasted two games he has done a lot, and ive table both people in 2000pts.

My friend thinks abbadon would work better, but kharn is more dependable,more anti tank, and less pts IMO he is the best choice.

I just wanted to get everyone imput on who to run, remember lash sorcerers are a choice also.

Thanks, Please Post.

Check out my other post to see my 2000 pt competitve army list.... Thanks.

I feel that the best option is actually a Daemon Prince with Wings. Of those, you have the following choices:

1) naked DP w/ Wings = cheapest option and still quite deadly and durable.
2) Khorne DP w/ Wings = fluffiest option, still cheap and a little more deadly
3) Nurgle DP w/ Wings and Warptime = Most durable and killy of the options but the most expensive. Its also not the fluffiest option but its not bad.

Basically the DPs will absorb firepower from your Rhinos and Land Raider to help keep everything alive, plus you can run them behind the Land Raiders to give them a constant 4+ cover save.

I would go with either:

Minigun's #3, it's what my friend uses and it's quite annoying

or

Kharn; if you're running Zerkers Kharn is a good choice. Not to expensive and a beast in CC. Just hope you don't get too many 1's on the hit.

Karn and and a lash prince, who brings stuff closer to Karn!

Kharn is sexy. A stupid opponent of mine had a trio of tanks in a V formation. Kharn was able to charge the tank at the back of the V and maintain base contact with all 3 (he was using the front 2 to shield the third cause it was immobilized). One round of combat and kharn killed all 3 tanks. Took a wound of explosion damage but hey, 3 tanks.

DP with wings, Nurgle, and warptime is also quite awesome. Fly him along the margins and aim for armor and shooty terminators or lootas. He will double his points if used correctly. Just remember that in a tournament setting you have to actually model the wings onto the DP.

Khârn is an absolute beast, but he's fragile if he doesn't get whatever he's hitting in the first round of combat; anything with I6 or higher that charged Khârn, or 7+ if Khârn charged, poses a heavy threat (especially since models with these stats tend to have a way of ignoring armour saves); hidden powerfists or other S8+ weapons will cause him hassle too.

Unless you know that Khârn will kill what he needs to, it's usually worth taking a DP (or a second DP if you already have one), whilst not as killy, they're more survivable due to T5 and EW.

I may be able to play with the list a little and get two princes with wings, Kharn does a lot for me and he is almost a guaranteed nasty assualt when in a raiders I always have kharn break off of the zerkers and rape a squad alone.

Any more throughts?

Legatto wrote:Kharn is sexy. A stupid opponent of mine had a trio of tanks in a V formation. Kharn was able to charge the tank at the back of the V and maintain base contact with all 3 (he was using the front 2 to shield the third cause it was immobilized). One round of combat and kharn killed all 3 tanks. Took a wound of explosion damage but hey, 3 tanks.

I will relish the day I can achieve a feat like this... Kharn rocks my world!

Kharn is a worth while model,hits alot and wounds alot that's so important.

A Khorne lord is nice to fill in the gaps.
And plenty of good options.

minigun762 wrote:I feel that the best option is actually a Daemon Prince with Wings. Of those, you have the following choices:

1) naked DP w/ Wings = cheapest option and still quite deadly and durable.
2) Khorne DP w/ Wings = fluffiest option, still cheap and a little more deadly
3) Nurgle DP w/ Wings and Warptime = Most durable and killy of the options but the most expensive. Its also not the fluffiest option but its not bad.

Basically the DPs will absorb firepower from your Rhinos and Land Raider to help keep everything alive, plus you can run them behind the Land Raiders to give them a constant 4+ cover save.

you forget the best option! Option number 4: Spartan prince (wings/warptime). Its a good start to a list, a pair of spartan princes. You can add marks (Nurgle recommended) to make him buffer, but I'd rate the Spartan prince over the khorne prince. Reroll hits/wounds vs +1A? I know which one I'd rather

If you want to be a jerk, you can hide a pair of Lash Princes behind your Land Raiders, then hop out, lash an infantry unit toward you and get a first turn charge with your Zerkers. If you line it up right, it'll be 12" move, 2" disembark to the back of the base, 6" assault (20" assault to the back of the base) then around 7" or 14" of lashing enemy infantry toward you, depending upon whetheror not you commit both princes, hoods, etc.

This will probably only work once per opponent BTW.

Jihallah wrote:
you forget the best option! Option number 4: Spartan prince (wings/warptime). Its a good start to a list, a pair of spartan princes. You can add marks (Nurgle recommended) to make him buffer, but I'd rate the Spartan prince over the khorne prince. Reroll hits/wounds vs +1A? I know which one I'd rather

Good point, you are correct. The Warptime Prince will beat out a KDP for raw damage by a fair margin. The only drawback is the slightly evalated point cost (only 1 Plasmagun worth) and the ability to shutdown the Warptime DP with anti-psyker gear.

Still it is a very good loadout.

Don't get me wrong, Kharn is really the only effective Chaos SC in the book. His main drawback isn't the hitting your own guys but rather the not being immune to insta-kills and only packing a 5++ save.

Kharn may not have eternal warrior, but he's also not a monstrous creature. Which is going to last longer on the field, a unit that hides in an infantry squad and takes cover saves like an infantry model, or a monstrous creature that sticks out like a sore thumb and takes cover saves like a monstrous creature?

DPs may have impressive stats, but they're also come for free with the "largest target in the codex" upgrade.

At least Kharn will make it into a close combat...

I like Kharne, I also like Abbadon. Abbadon is more of a pts investments but his kills just as much stuff and is about as tough as anything in the game.


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Princes are IMO generally outdated. Relics of 4th ed

You could always take a summoned greater daemon and turn one of your squad leaders into it i mean the thing is pretty good for 100 pts, just have the chosen outflank and turn the squad leader into the daemon keeps your rhinos safe, and have a winged prince(or 2 the summoned dosent take up an HQ slot) to follow the rhinos, I think that would definately keep some fire off the rhinos too

Heh, greater summoned demons seem pretty cool, what for being something you only hit on 5's, and with a 4++ and with the whole suddenly they're in close combat thing.

The problem is what you sacrifice. It's not just the points, it's also the potential of losing a sorcerer, lord, or hidden power fist to make it happen.

Ailaros wrote:Heh, greater summoned demons seem pretty cool, what for being something you only hit on 5's, and with a 4++ and with the whole suddenly they're in close combat thing.

The problem is what you sacrifice. It's not just the points, it's also the potential of losing a sorcerer, lord, or hidden power fist to make it happen.

Well i mean a squad leader isnt too much of a big payoff considering you get a massive beast that gets extra dice to pop tanks so the powerfist on the chosen (if you intend on taking the daemon) isnt a smart idea I mean you choose which lord,sorc,squad leader changes into the daemon, besides (correct me if im wrong) i know the lessers can assault the second they come in and im pretty sure same goes for the great so its a pretty fair tradeoff

Ailaros wrote:Heh, greater summoned demons seem pretty cool, what for being something you only hit on 5's, and with a 4++ and with the whole suddenly they're in close combat thing.

The problem is what you sacrifice. It's not just the points, it's also the potential of losing a sorcerer, lord, or hidden power fist to make it happen.

5 Raptors + Champ = 115pts for something can jet 12" and run D6 into your enemy's deployment zone and summon a GD in the middle of it. If you want you can also give them 2 meltaguns for some tank-hutning afterwards. They could die, but if you hide them behind terrain then they usually won't unless your opponent goes out their way to do it, in which case the rest of your army is strolling up unmolested.

Kharn is great.

DPs are excellent. Immune to ID, come with their own transport built-in, and pretty cheap.

I usually run a flying lash sorcerer and either a warp time prince or a lash prince. Double lash still wins a lot of games, despite the prevalence of mechanized lists.

I'm not sure what your use will be, but CSM can field good HQ's that are not SC's. A lord with Nurgle weapon is 150 or 165 with termie armor. He can throw a potential 10 poisoned attacks in a sngle round of combat. That leaves points for a prince or sorceror.

Ive always like summoned greater deamons, but for me they cost 161 pts becasue my zerker champs are 61pts. Now, Kharn is the HQ I have in the list now and I think he is the way to go for this kind of build, he is a huge hidden target that can rape anything he assualts, ( I almost always break off from his squad btw). But I can tweek my list a little and get a lash prince or get kharn and two lash princes.

For like 2 years I throught kharn sucked ass but after giving he a try he kicks ass if played right,.... sometimes I died from a PF from the first combat, but yeah.....

Anymore throughts?

Don't underestimate the Tzeentch Princes. Warptime and wind of chaos! I've played this combination more times than I can count. The winds of chaos can be very deadily to almost any squads. And I know lots of people love the Nurgle Prince, and he is good, no doub there. But, it's been my experience that the extra T is worth as much as the extra Invul point.

The advantage of the T 6 is that bolters will have a harder time of hurting you, and static marines in squads. But, those models already need 4's to hit, 5's to wound, and you get your 3+ armor. To my expierance, its not these wounds that kill the DP's. Its the power firsts, the lascannons, the missiles, and all the other low ap stuff people have. A DP will shrug off heavy bolters but three lascannons and you'll be wishing you had that 4+ invul. But that is just my experience, I'm sure other players will tell you that nobody in there communities fire heavy weapons at DP's and all of them get shot to death by bolters.

Actually, the thing I've lost the most DPs to had been massed Lasgun fire. It doesn't matter how good your saves are, or what your toughness is, 90 shots is going to kill you.

ZombieJoe wrote:Don't underestimate the Tzeentch Princes. Warptime and wind of chaos! I've played this combination more times than I can count. The winds of chaos can be very deadily to almost any squads. And I know lots of people love the Nurgle Prince, and he is good, no doub there. But, it's been my experience that the extra T is worth as much as the extra Invul point.

The advantage of the T 6 is that bolters will have a harder time of hurting you, and static marines in squads. But, those models already need 4's to hit, 5's to wound, and you get your 3+ armor. To my expierance, its not these wounds that kill the DP's. Its the power firsts, the lascannons, the missiles, and all the other low ap stuff people have. A DP will shrug off heavy bolters but three lascannons and you'll be wishing you had that 4+ invul. But that is just my experience, I'm sure other players will tell you that nobody in there communities fire heavy weapons at DP's and all of them get shot to death by bolters.

The way people get around the lack of a 4++ is by using cover saves. True it only helps in shooting but it does cut down on the need for the improved Inv save. That being said, sometimes a straight 4++ is better and I wouldn't consider a Tzeentch DP to be weak by any stretch of the imagination.

PotatoLord wrote:Actually, the thing I've lost the most DPs to had been massed Lasgun fire. It doesn't matter how good your saves are, or what your toughness is, 90 shots is going to kill you.

To be a math-jerk, 90 BS3 lasguns should only take off 2.5 wounds. But you're correct, mass little guns will take you out but thats why your CSMs should be slaughtering the weaklings and tying them up.

I've done the math out. If you run the numbers for a DP being shot with a couple of meltaguns & some pistols, then charged by a squad of BA assault marines or SW GH, the Nurgle Prince comes out ahead of the Tzeentch prince. T6 makes more of a difference against all the S5 & S5 stuff than the extra pip of invulnerable save does against the meltas and fist. The Nurgle prince is even better if he doesn't get shot at first; if he gets the charge, for example, the benefit of T6 well outweighs the extra pip of save against the fist. Against a squad of Orks charging, it's not even close. A T5 prince usually dies the first round. A T6 prince fights for a couple of rounds and thins out the squad. He can often hold long enough for another CSM unit to come in and beat down the Orks.

The two are exactly equal in durability against plasma, unless the Nurgle prince is using cover, in which case he's better.

The only times the Tzeentch prince is better are generally when basically the entire unit attacking has nothing but S8+ attacks which ignore a 3+ armor save. Which DOES include some important and common units- SW ML LFs, IG Melta vets, SM TH&SS terminators. But IME you can very often get cover saves against the shooty ones, and the TH&SS terminators will beat either prince down, so there's no point pretending that the 4++ is going to save you from them.

I'm finding all this talk of demon princes getting cover interesting. You know, because they're monstrous creatures, and use monstrous creature cover rules.

I know they're not the tallest MC model, but still...

True, but considering Chaos armies typically work best when mechanised, it's not too hard to hide a DP behind a couple of rhinos or for him to hop behind terrain as he advances, particularly with wings and - as you said - not being a particularly big monstrous creature.

No love for the tried and true Chaos Lords? Let me fill you in.

Lord choice 1: Generic daemon weapon wings in rhino.

The only Jumpack HQ that can go into a rhino. First turn move 12" pop smoke. turn two disembark 2" fly 12" assault 6". If you are a smart player you will detach from tthe squad in the rhino, assault with the squad. Then assault with the lord safe from the powerfist sarg.

The tzeench and slannesh Daemon weapons are both very good

Ailaros wrote:I'm finding all this talk of demon princes getting cover interesting. You know, because they're monstrous creatures, and use monstrous creature cover rules.

I know they're not the tallest MC model, but still...

Perhaps you might have heard of a unit called a Rhino? Chaos armies tend to have several.

There's also such a thing as terrain which blocks LOS. You know, because some people play this game with terrain, like it's meant to be played.

Sorry about the sarcasm; I hope you appreciate that it was employed strictly in response to the implication that I don't know basic game rules.


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sexiest_hero wrote:No love for the tried and true Chaos Lords? Let me fill you in.

Lord choice 1: Generic daemon weapon wings in rhino.

The only Jumpack HQ that can go into a rhino. First turn move 12" pop smoke. turn two disembark 2" fly 12" assault 6". If you are a smart player you will detach from tthe squad in the rhino, assault with the squad. Then assault with the lord safe from the powerfist sarg.

Those powerfists in squads tend to be his downfall. And occasionally hitting himself in the face. And the lord you've described is what, 10pts cheaper than a lash prince or unmarked Warp Time prince? The Rhino mobility trick is a fun one, though, and can certainly catch people out.

sexiest_hero wrote:The tzeench and slannesh Daemon weapons are both very good

I don't like the Tzeentch mostly because you're giving yourself extra chances to self-wound. Slaanesh is neat, but I like the Unmarked and Nurgle ones best for the improved chance to wound.

I regularly run a Slaanesh Chaos Lord with wings and a daemon weapon, and it's definitely very hit and miss. The mobility is amazing, and you're almost guaranteed to at least strike simultaneously against most HQs other than Archons, which means that you'll more than likely Instand Death them into a delightful coma composed of wet dreams and daemon-rape...

But there's always the fickle nature of the daemon weapon itself. Sure, it may be just a 1 in 6 chance per assault phase, but goddamn that can add up. Don't be surprised when your Lord's fancy daemon spear he spent the better part of a millennium obtaining decides it'd be fun times to shank him three times in the face while an otherwise helpless Necron Lord laughs a few inches away.... (No, I'm not bitter, not at all, why do you ask?)