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Locally we have a guy that's spreading the doctrine of the hammerhand.

That is, join a mastery level 2 independent character to a squad of grey knights. Have the grey knights cast hammerhand, then have the grand master or special character cast hammerhand twice more.

We've been combing the rulebooks for something to say he can't do this, but we're coming up blank. People have shown that "might of titan" specifically says it can be combined with hammerhand - but nothing says hammerhand can't be combined with itself. Had the wording of the spell been "strikes at strength 5" or "the unit gains the 'hammerhand' ability", which you'd then look up and find that having "hammerhand" means you have +1 strength - that would also have been fine, because no matter how many times you used the power, the effect would be to "have hammerhand" and thus only ever have +1 strength. Unfortunately the spell just says "if cast, you get +1 strength". Heck technically you can cast Might of Titan twice for 3d6 penetration, too!

I've found where you can't use the same psychic shooting attack twice, but nothing that says you can't use the same psychic power twice. I've seen Eldrad's entry, where he specifically mentions he's able to use the same power twice in the same turn [but now that I think about it, I wonder why he can't use the same power three times?]

I'd appreciate any help I can get. I threw two defilers, a dreadnought, and two daemon princes at a squad of paladins. They destroyed every last one of them at initiative 6, because they were all striking at strength 7 and Draigo was S8. It's getting ridiculous.

And don't get me started on his theories that Purgation Squads can fire twice, once by just shooting and then by casting Astral Aim, which tells you to shoot as well.

nothing prevents you from stacking open ended modifiers. and you are correct that you can cast multiples of the same psychic power in the same turn.


Eldrad(and other Eldar) can't use the same power twice because their codex forbids them.

GKs(and other races) have no such restrictions.

But you can't fire Purgation squads twice.

The last line of the Psychic Shooting Attacks entry suggests that you can only use multiple different powers, not the same one multiple times:

pg.50

However, if he is allowed to fire more than one ranged weapon per turn, he can replace the firing of any of the weapons he is allowed to fire with a psychic shooting attack (but still cannot use the same power twice in a turn).

Emphasis mine. Since you *still cannot* do it, my guess is that you can't do it in the first place.

that says you can't use the same PSA twice.


a Tzeench DP couldn't cast the sam,e PSA twice and fire it.


but they ARE allowed to cast Gift of Chaos twice at different models.

The "Still cannot use the same powe twice in the same turn" is to show that it's like firing the same weapon twice which you can't do.

Meh, if it had said "[...] cannot use the same psychic shooting attack twice in a turn," I might be inclined to agree with you, but it just says "same power." Not all psychic powers are psychic shooting attacks, but all psychic shooting attacks are psychic powers, eh?

Except its in the PSA section. Context tells you everything.

Yeah I tried that one. Since it's under the psa section it's useless as an argument. We kinda did this dance back with "is ramming a kind of tank shock".

And it becomes a completely circular argument because there's no general rule in 40K saying whether or not multiple copies of the same effect stack.

Stipulate that a give model has successfully cast Hammerhand twice in the same turn. And then what?

It's intuitively obvious that the identical effects would add together.
It's intuitively obvious that the identical effects would NOT add together.

Mix in various posters substituting variants for "intuitively obvious", and repeat for 20 pages of argument.

im of the impression that hammerhand stacks with other castings, but the same character cant cast hammerhand twice in the same turn. so a lvl 2 libby and termie squad could do 1 hh from termies, 1 hh from libby and 1 might of titan from libby for +3 str. i dont think the libby could use hammerhand twice. else, you could have a lvl 3 psyker just use hh 3 times and not bother with buying other powers.

....exactly. So we get S7 grey knights across the board. We just need GW to come out and say "no, Hammerhand can't stack with itself". Period, that's all we need.

And what about Shrouding? Ugh, this is horribly written.

Spellbound wrote:....exactly. So we get S7 grey knights across the board. We just need GW to come out and say "no, Hammerhand can't stack with itself". Period, that's all we need.

And what about Shrouding? Ugh, this is horribly written.

Well Shrouding just gives Stealth. Stealth doesn't stack.

except it also gives a 6+ cover save in the event one is not present already.

a unit in the open could be given a 5+ cover with 2 castings.


the 1st gives the 6+, the 2nd adds stealth for a 5+

Grey Templar wrote:except it also gives a 6+ cover save in the event one is not present already.

a unit in the open could be given a 5+ cover with 2 castings.


the 1st gives the 6+, the 2nd adds stealth for a 5+

I thought since it gives the unit a cover save, but since it also gives Stealth that was already a 5+?

no, its either/or

you either get a 6+ if you have no cover, or get the Stealth Special rule if you do have cover.


if it gave both it would be a permant 5+ all the time.

Yes Hammerhand stacks that's what makes it so darn good.

I have a question, I haven't checked the rulebook yet, but for the longest time I thought you couldn't cast the same Psychic Power twice. Is it really true you can cast the same Psychic Power as many times as your unit permits it except for PSA's?

So a Level 3 Grey Knight Libby can cast Hammerhand 3 times plus the unit can cast Hammerhand for a total of +4 strength to the unit? Thats str 8 Purifiers striking at Initiative 6 with Halberds!

If thats true, my god I have to try that!

Yes, it is fine to cast multiple non-PSA powers repeatedly. The only codex that is restricted is the Eldar codex.

Solkan - the main reason it stacks is there is a definite order to casting, unlike other powers which are cast simultaneously.

Stacking is the default for multiple modifieres, unless an exception is given, anything stacks.

I can not wait to get my hands on some Grey Knight models, moreso now. Thank you, OP!

Pfft, as if my Purifiers weren't good enough in combat already..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait, so as it stands, a Librarian with Mastery Level 3 + Draigo + Paladins could cast Hammerhand 6 times.. for a total of +6 Strength in close-combat. S10 W2 Insta-killing Power-weapon Terminators with potential for I6 and FnP? YES PLEASE!

Grey Templar wrote:except it also gives a 6+ cover save in the event one is not present already.

a unit in the open could be given a 5+ cover with 2 castings.


the 1st gives the 6+, the 2nd adds stealth for a 5+

While you may be able to stack Hammerhand, I'm 95% sure this one doesn't work that way. On the first casting "if the unit is not in cover it benefits from a 6+ cover save instead." On the second casting the unit is still not in cover, so "it benefits from a 6+ cover save instead."

pg.21 of the rulebook:

When are models in Cover?
When any part of the target model's body (as defined on page 16) is obscured from the point of view of the firer, the target model is in cover.

The same can be said of models that have gone to ground in the open. They're not in cover, but have a temporary cover save.

bushido wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:except it also gives a 6+ cover save in the event one is not present already.

a unit in the open could be given a 5+ cover with 2 castings.


the 1st gives the 6+, the 2nd adds stealth for a 5+

While you may be able to stack Hammerhand, I'm 95% sure this one doesn't work that way. On the first casting "if the unit is not in cover it benefits from a 6+ cover save instead." On the second casting the unit is still not in cover, so "it benefits from a 6+ cover save instead."

pg.21 of the rulebook:

When are models in Cover?
When any part of the target model's body (as defined on page 16) is obscured from the point of view of the firer, the target model is in cover.

The same can be said of models that have gone to ground in the open. They're not in cover, but have a temporary cover save.

This man knows his stuff.

bushido wrote:The same can be said of models that have gone to ground in the open. They're not in cover, but have a temporary cover save.

A model with Stealth that goes to ground will have a 5+ cover save though. Stealth doesn't say anything about being in cover - it says that 'all of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1.' In this example, if the GK had a 6+ cover save, another casting of Shrouding would give them a 5+.

You're right, a model with stealth does get a 5+ save by diving on the ground. However, when The Shrouding is cast on a unit not in cover, it benefits from a 6+ cover save instead of gaining stealth.

bushido wrote:You're right, a model with stealth does get a 5+ save by diving on the ground. However, when The Shrouding is cast on a unit not in cover, it benefits from a 6+ cover save instead of gaining stealth.

Yeah I just re-read the wording of the power and it does indeed say 'in cover' and not 'that has a cover save.' Good spot.

Why argue over a poorly worded rule. Clearly the way spellbound's unruly grey knight opponent uses Hammerhand is overpowered to say the least. A simple solution would be a house rule. Hammerhand shouldn't be allowed to stack with itself, because it lends the player with an unfair advantage. I only say this because the rules are poorly written. When GW decides to make a FAQ, then we will know for sure what the intent of the author was for the psychic power Hammerhand. When in doubt play fair, after all we are all playing a board game.

Massive_Mouse wrote:then we will know for sure what the intent of the author was for the psychic power Hammerhand.

In that case it's definitely going to be allowed to stack.

Massive_Mouse said: Why argue over a poorly worded rule. Clearly the way spellbound's unruly grey knight opponent uses Hammerhand is overpowered to say the least. A simple solution would be a house rule. Hammerhand shouldn't be allowed to stack with itself, because it lends the player with an unfair advantage. I only say this because the rules are poorly written. When GW decides to make a FAQ, then we will know for sure what the intent of the author was for the psychic power Hammerhand. When in doubt play fair, after all we are all playing a board game.

Seriously Hammerhand is overpowered?! I can't believe you would say that with all the other broken Psychic powers out there.

By your logic then Jotww shouldn't be able to target models within units, Paroxysm and Lash should be banned from tournaments altogether! I can't believe that with all the other broken Psychic powers out there including the three I mentioned you would say Hammerhand is broken. It is by far the least broken power. If you can't handle it then get some Psychic defense in your army, if your playing an army that has no Psychic defense then rework your strategy so that Hammerhand is no longer an issue. It's called adapting!

Wow I had to comment, Mod's please close this thread were done here.

Final answer: Wait for the FAQ unit then...it stacks.

You got me there Darkvoid. Lol



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sanguinis thats not what I'm saying at all. All I'm saying is that we don't know what the limits are on hammerhand. All of the other Psychic powers you mentioned have clarity now because they are faq'd. What should be done is instead of venturing into grey areas in the rules, we should take a step back and leave it up to GW to decide. That way we don't abuse some of these powers in an unfair advantage. I don't know about you but I6 S7 sounds a bit overpowered for a squad of paladins. You do bring up some good points about psychic defense. I do utilize some of my own, but I'm fortunate enough to play space wolves. Chaos however has little in the way of the psychic defense that you speak of. I Don't want to ban some psychic powers because I feel threatened by them, I just want clarity on them, and in my opinion hammerhand is being abused in this situation because of grey areas in the rules leading them to be over powered.

it isn't unclear.

the modifier is open ended with no restrictions. its going to stack.



GW probably won't even bother to FAQ it.