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Here are some basic "True Marine" characteristic (and weapon) changes that my mates and I are working on atm. I think they're fair enough, and give an accurate representation of fluffy marines without making them ridiculously OP.
Anyway, tell me what you think so far! Any unforeseen complications or balancing side-effects that you can make out? Overpowered? Any criticisms, suggestions, or advice at all?



Ok, so the following squads will count as allies for Imperial Guard armies. Tactical, Assault, Scout and Terminator squads can be taken by IG players as Elites choices, and if at least two full Space Marine squads are taken as Elites, then a Captain may be taken as a second HQ choice.

They can take whichever transport options are allowed in the SM codex, and all unmodified weapon and wargear profiles are from the SM codex too.

Note that the artwork isn't mine, I just decided to throw in some awesome stuff I googled for decoration :


Tactical Combat Squad:

Assault Combat Squad:

Scout Combat Squad:

Terminator Fire Team:

Captain:




Here are some custom weapon stats and wargear/special rules. We'll be applying these modified weapon profiles to every faction that uses them (if applicable), so we'll be shifting around point costs and stuff for other armies too:






As of now, these Marines are generally most effective against medium and heavy infantry, and can even tackle lightweight MCs with a little luck. They aren't very efficient against cheap hordes though... just can't put out enough firepower to win back their points before they die.

Tacticals/Scouts sort of make up for this with Flamers, Heavy Bolters and Auxiliary GLs (on Vet. Sergeants), and Assault Marines are able to dish out a fair number of wounds to an assaulting Zerg-rush or Guard blob (especially with a Flamer), but end up overwhelmed well before they make back their points. Terminators are fairly good all round (with Assault Cannons, BS5 Cyclones and the new, improved Storm Bolters), but they move slowly at times, and every loss is a big deal. Just the way they should be...

I also like the Toughness bonus provided by Terminator armour, as it counter-balances the Slow and Purposeful USR pretty well, but provides important extra protection against Instant Death.




Major changes, as of most recent update:

1) Reduced the Captain's Wounds, and removed Eternal Warrior (making him more of a glass cannon).
2) Removed Strength bonuses from armour.
3) Plenty of extra (and new) wargear and upgrade options, to allow for more varied potential weapon load-outs.




So, what do you think? Accurate enough? Would you want to play with or against Marines using these rules?

Bolt weapons cannot regularly penetrate carapace armor in the fluff.



Similarly, there is no reason they would have Rending. They are not anti-tank weapons, they aren't depicted as having particularly enough penetration or power to regularly destroy vehicles. S4 AP5 is actually consistent with the depiction of boltguns/pistols throughout the fluff.

Changed the AP. But I still reckon Bolters should be rending.

I'm guessing that a bolt could cause massive trauma if it exploded within a target's armour... and bolts are designed to penetrate armour before initiating a delayed detonation, meaning that a lucky shot could render any armour useless, rebounding shock-waves around inside or even send shards of it into the victim's body.

In terms of gameplay, it also makes Marine-on-Marine action a little more fun.

I agree with Melissa.

Also, I find a lot of people don't fully realise the limitations inherent in a ten point statline.

You just don't have enough stat points to play with to depict that level of detail in the stats, a lot of things have to be generalised.

I see so many threads on here with something to the effect of 'why does X weapon have the same S & AP as Y weapon? In the fluff it's loads more powerful!'

The issue is that it isnt practical to depict the effects and power of each weapon in minute detail working within a ten point limit.

If you want fluff marine stats depictied accurately check out Inquisitor or the 40k Roleplaying games where the characteristics have values of 1 - 100.

This rant isnt directed at the OP by the way, Im just venting about what I see as the futility of trying to inject more fluff accuracy into the game via stat fiddling. To be fair to I_am_a_spoon, your rules do seem well reasoned.

one more thing, should this be in Proposed Rules rather than Background?

This would be accurate-ish if it were a custodians codex....

We tried to do something very similar in our game group as we are enamoured of the fluff and a bit despondent about our marines in the game.

Instead, we decided to focus on Chapter traits without trying to change the stat line. Trying to get a better blend of fluff than already existed in the codexes.

We've broken it down to Loyalists and Traitor codexes, but with all of us being so busy in RL things are a bit slow.

Apparently, there are many projects of this type in the works by others as well.

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:This would be accurate-ish if it were a custodians codex....

The marines here are insanely powerful, but custodians, just no. If they were introduced they would break the game.

Also, if you are making them fluffy, you would max their leadership. Spees Mareens don't ran aweey.

Yeah, great, because marines aren't powerful enough already.

Seriously, these rules are ridiculous. Why don't you give them all Eternal Warrior? Everyone knows that marines are too tough for instant-death. And while we're at it, terminator armor should really be 1+, since it's totally the best armor ever invented by anyone.

If you are going to fandex up, you should do custodes.

BTW, professional looking fandex, did you find an app for it or something?

P.S, Boltguns are in no conceivable way str 5.

Modern guns, in that game, would be like str 1 or 2 AP-

they are only one str higher than lasguns, but lasguns can blow a mans arm clean off. Like a Barrett .50cal, lasguns are.

Pulse weapons, which completely out class boltguns, are str 5.

I too disagree with them being rending.

Too many wounds also, you're making them all as powerful as monstrous creatures, and a space marine in no way equals an avatar. Fulgrim, a primarch, only barely escaped fighting an avatar with his life, and we all know that primarchs are indestructible to space marines in every sense.

Also, the only reason space marines are so powerful in BL is that they are supposed to make it more fun to read-just like superheroes.

Melissia wrote:Bolt weapons cannot regularly penetrate carapace armor in the fluff.

I carapace armour is tougher than flak but I'm pretty sure a bolter could still pierce it, this is is a rapid firing grenade launcher were talking about after-all.

This is neato. I imagine 'true-scale' models being used with this 'codex'.

djphranq wrote:This is neato. I imagine 'true-scale' models being used with this 'codex'.

Yes, it's odd when space marines, 8 feet tall in fluff, stand as tall as fire warriors, who are roughly 6 inches shorter than humans in fluff.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Pulse weapons, which completely out class boltguns, are str 5.

That's slightly exaggerated, to say the least.

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, the only reason space marines are so powerful in BL is that they are supposed to make it more fun to read-just like superheroes.

The only reason why SM are so powerful in BL publications is because these publications try to depict the W40K background as accurately as possible, whereas game statistics do not reflect the fluff. The rules of the tabletop have been modified and adapted - and SM have been seriously scaled down - to make possible for gamers to play small skirmishes with a few dozens minis on each side. If SM rules in the game truly represented their background, any non-SM player would have to field hundreds and hundreds of minis to have a hope to win a single battle.

This is why some SM players - like I_am_a_Spoon - try to make their own home-brew rules to better represent their faction's background.

And I think these rules are pretty good. Although I also have some doubts on the rending.

Moved to the 40k Proposed Rules forum.

Wasn't there already a "Movie Marines" list done in WD some time ago? If I remember the statline for the marines were similar to yours, but the guns were much more outragous (I remember the Bolter being something like a portable Assault cannon).

Cheesecat wrote:

Melissia wrote:Bolt weapons cannot regularly penetrate carapace armor in the fluff.

I carapace armour is tougher than flak but I'm pretty sure a bolter could still pierce it, this is is a rapid firing grenade launcher were talking about after-all.

Bolters cut straight through Carapace in Dark Heresy.

Rending makes perfect sense to me, Fluff wise, but an entire army with nothing but Rending? What are these, Necrons?

somecallmeJack wrote:I find a lot of people don't fully realise the limitations inherent in a ten point statline.

You just don't have enough stat points to play with to depict that level of detail in the stats, a lot of things have to be generalised.

I see so many threads on here with something to the effect of 'why does X weapon have the same S & AP as Y weapon? In the fluff it's loads more powerful!'

The issue is that it isnt practical to depict the effects and power of each weapon in minute detail working within a ten point limit.

If you want fluff marine stats depictied accurately check out Inquisitor or the 40k Roleplaying games where the characteristics have values of 1 – 100.

I agree, but we did try to take that into consideration.

For example, Strength 5 means that they can wound GEQ's on a 2+ in melee, whilst still having trouble with MCs and other tough adversaries (although chainswords/lightning claws help against tough enemies), and Toughness 4 means that they can still be insta-killed by Krak missiles, Lascannons, Lances, Strength 8+ MCs, Particle Whips, Powerfists, etc (making Terminator armour much more protective).

It is difficult though to fully utilise a 10-point scale, and often misleading too, especially in relation to the established fluff.

Uhlan wrote:We tried to do something very similar in our game group as we are enamoured of the fluff and a bit despondent about our marines in the game.

Instead, we decided to focus on Chapter traits without trying to change the stat line. Trying to get a better blend of fluff than already existed in the codexes.

We've broken it down to Loyalists and Traitor codexes, but with all of us being so busy in RL things are a bit slow.

Are your rules on the web anywhere? I'd love to check them out.

im2randomghgh wrote:If you are going to fandex up, you should do custodes.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:This would be accurate-ish if it were a custodians codex....

The marines here are insanely powerful, but custodians, just no. If they were introduced they would break the game.

Also, if you are making them fluffy, you would max their leadership. Spees Mareens don't ran aweey.

They have Ld 10 with a Vet. Sgt, and are Stubborn too.

Guildsman wrote:Yeah, great, because marines aren't powerful enough already.

Seriously, these rules are ridiculous. Why don't you give them all Eternal Warrior? Everyone knows that marines are too tough for instant-death. And while we're at it, terminator armor should really be 1+, since it's totally the best armor ever invented by anyone.

Marines are decent troops on the tabletop, but they aren't anything like how they're portrayed in the books and BL literature. Is it so wrong for me to come up with alternate rules for friendly games? Seriously? It's not like you'll be forced to play against them or anything...

BTW, I only gave Captains Eternal Warrior so that a 250+ point model can't be killed by a lucky missile. Besides, many SM special characters currently have the rule.

im2randomghgh wrote:BTW, professional looking fandex, did you find an app for it or something?

Nah mate, just messed around with Paint.NET. Thanks though.

im2randomghgh wrote:P.S, Boltguns are in no conceivable way str 5.

Modern guns, in that game, would be like str 1 or 2 AP-

they are only one str higher than lasguns, but lasguns can blow a mans arm clean off. Like a Barrett .50cal, lasguns are.

Pulse weapons, which completely out class boltguns, are str 5.

I too disagree with them being rending.

Well, as for comparisons, a Boltgun fires a round with a calibre 150% larger than a Barrett does, and this round is both rocket-accelerated and tipped with an armour-penetrating, delayed-explosive warhead. A Heavy Bolter fires bolts as big as a human fist, which brings it almost up to par with an Autocannon IMO.

Besides, lasguns are often described as causing small, cauterised holes, rather than blasting limbs off outright. They might be more reliable, accurate, hardy, quiet and cheaper to produce than a modern firearm, but they don't necessarily cause significantly more damage. Especially not to the degree a Barrett .50 cal would (the Barrett is an anti-materiel rifle after all).

Anyway, I reckon Boltguns should be Str. 5. A bolt doesn't just cause one hell of a kinetic impact, it then explodes too. That's also why I think they should be rending. Both to represent the chance that a bolt could penetrate armour (or land a lucky shot to the neck, eyes, underarms, etc) and explode within, and to make them more effective against heavier enemies (especially now that I reduced their AP to 5). I originally intended for them to play an anti-heavy infantry role in IG armies.




After all... if Boltguns are useless against heavy infantry, the Horus Heresy must have been one hell of a galactic stalemate...

im2randomghgh wrote:Too many wounds also, you're making them all as powerful as monstrous creatures, and a space marine in no way equals an avatar. Fulgrim, a primarch, only barely escaped fighting an avatar with his life, and we all know that primarchs are indestructible to space marines in every sense.

Also, the only reason space marines are so powerful in BL is that they are supposed to make it more fun to read-just like superheroes.

Looking at the Avatar's profile, it seems to have suffered the C'tan treatment; ie, it's been downgraded to fit the 40k rule-set. Still, it's much better than any SM in the OP.

And MCs like a Carnifex or Wraithlord will both insta-kill a T4 Marine and ignore armour saves.

TBH though, an Avatar as depicted by fluff should be an Apocalypse-only unit. The current rules do it no justice at all.

Cheesecat wrote:

Melissia wrote:Bolt weapons cannot regularly penetrate carapace armor in the fluff.

I carapace armour is tougher than flak but I'm pretty sure a bolter could still pierce it, this is is a rapid firing grenade launcher were talking about after-all.

I agree on the whole, but AP 5 is fine as long as they also have Rending I think... It's a good trade-off; sometimes they penetrate, sometimes they don't.

im2randomghgh wrote:

djphranq wrote:This is neato. I imagine 'true-scale' models being used with this 'codex'.

Yes, it's odd when space marines, 8 feet tall in fluff, stand as tall as fire warriors, who are roughly 6 inches shorter than humans in fluff.

True-scale Marines are definitely in the works...

Lol, I made these rules for true-scale marines, not the other way around... I don't want my 8-feet-tall supermen dying in droves!

Laodamia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, the only reason space marines are so powerful in BL is that they are supposed to make it more fun to read-just like superheroes.

The only reason why SM are so powerful in BL publications is because these publications try to depict the W40K background as accurately as possible, whereas game statistics do not reflect the fluff. The rules of the tabletop have been modified and adapted - and SM have been seriously scaled down - to make possible for gamers to play small skirmishes with a few dozens minis on each side. If SM rules in the game truly represented their background, any non-SM player would have to field hundreds and hundreds of minis to have a hope to win a single battle.

True that.

It's also why the guys in the OP can only be taken alongside Guard... fighting an entire army of them would be insanely annoying and completely unbalanced.

But yeah, I really wish tabletop Marines were a bit more powerful, elite (and rare) on the tabletop. They just don't come off as supermen... more like well-armoured Catachans or something.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Wasn't there already a "Movie Marines" list done in WD some time ago? If I remember the statline for the marines were similar to yours, but the guns were much more outragous (I remember the Bolter being something like a portable Assault cannon).

After reading your post, I searched the web for a bit, and found this:
http://forums.tauonline.org/general-40k/40186-looking-rules-movie-marines.html#post661439

Gotta love a Range 36”, Strength 6, AP 4, Assault 8, Rending Stormbolter...

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Bolters cut straight through Carapace in Dark Heresy.

Rending makes perfect sense to me, Fluff wise, but an entire army with nothing but Rending? What are these, Necrons?

I wrote these Marines up as allies for IG armies. You can't have an entire army of them... in fact, you can only have a maximum of 16 SM models on the battlefield at any point in time (which would be horrendously expensive anyway).

But yeah, you need to have IG to take them in the first place, as every squad but the captain counts as an Elites choice, and you need 2 other SM squads to take the captain as a HQ choice.

Cheesecat wrote:I carapace armour is tougher than flak but I'm pretty sure a bolter could still pierce it, this is is a rapid firing grenade launcher were talking about after-all.

No, it cannot.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Bolters cut straight through Carapace in Dark Heresy.

No more than they cut straight through power armor. Penetration works differently in DH than tabletop.

But carapace has a higher armor value than bolters have a penetration value. All things considered, in Dark Heresy power armor will block four damage from a boltgun while carapace armor will block two damage from a boltgun. Flak armor or less will block nothing (effectively this means that boltguns reduce the effectiveness of power armor by half-- I bet you'd hate to see THAT kind of armor penetration in tabletop, marines would lose a lot of their durability).

IMHO these are some of the best 'fluff Marines' I've seen. Ever.

I reckon the guns are well represented, however Rending should possibly only apply to non-vehicle units and the Heavy Bolter should possibly have increase RoF.

I really like what you did with the terminator armour, in that it adds increased durability but still vulnerable to Lascannons etc. just less so (T5).

I think it's fair that you cannot field a whole army of these bad boys either.

However, I am unsure about the squad sizes and whether you should just stick to having to have 5-men, despite the expense this brings?
I also believe that Assault Marines should either not being included for balance reasons or be around 85pts each, as you'd be getting 2 high-stat, fast moving models for 55pts. If you compare their stats to say the stats of an existing model with similar stats (Wolf Lord), the latter has worse statistics but costs more and doesn't come with a Jump Pack.

I also wonder whether such models would be fair in-game or should only be used in a system that makes all models in-line with their fluff? Admittedly, in their current format, on the tabletop they'd be blown away by a simple missile launcher or whatever...

Another suggestion I'd make is to make the standard guy 2 wounds but with FNP, to represent their vulnerability to the likes of a plasma weapons.

However, as I said, these are some of the best-represented fluff-marines I've seen and they're also presented REALLY well.

Melissia wrote:

Cheesecat wrote:I carapace armour is tougher than flak but I'm pretty sure a bolter could still pierce it, this is is a rapid firing grenade launcher were talking about after-all.

No, it cannot.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Bolters cut straight through Carapace in Dark Heresy.

No more than they cut straight through power armor. Penetration works differently in DH than tabletop.

But carapace has a higher armor value than bolters have a penetration value. All things considered, in Dark Heresy power armor will block four damage from a boltgun while carapace armor will block two damage from a boltgun. Flak armor or less will block nothing (effectively this means that boltguns reduce the effectiveness of power armor by half-- I bet you'd hate to see THAT kind of armor penetration in tabletop, marines would lose a lot of their durability).

If a 75 Caliber explosive adamantium tip round can't peirce through Carapace kindly explain to me the cover picture on the space marine codex with a space marine blowing a hole straight through a choas marines power armour. You telling me carapace is stronger then power armour???

Just Dave wrote:IMHO these are some of the best 'fluff Marines' I've seen. Ever.

I reckon the guns are well represented, however Rending should possibly only apply to non-vehicle units and the Heavy Bolter should possibly have increase RoF.

I really like what you did with the terminator armour, in that it adds increased durability but still vulnerable to Lascannons etc. just less so (T5).

I think it's fair that you cannot field a whole army of these bad boys either.

However, I am unsure about the squad sizes and whether you should just stick to having to have 5-men, despite the expense this brings?
I also believe that Assault Marines should either not being included for balance reasons or be around 85pts each, as you'd be getting 2 high-stat, fast moving models for 55pts. If you compare their stats to say the stats of an existing model with similar stats (Wolf Lord), the latter has worse statistics but costs more and doesn't come with a Jump Pack.

I also wonder whether such models would be fair in-game or should only be used in a system that makes all models in-line with their fluff? Admittedly, in their current format, on the tabletop they'd be blown away by a simple missile launcher or whatever...

Another suggestion I'd make is to make the standard guy 2 wounds but with FNP, to represent their vulnerability to the likes of a plasma weapons.

However, as I said, these are some of the best-represented fluff-marines I've seen and they're also presented REALLY well.

Thanks mate.

I decided to make squad sizes more flexible... after all, in the fluff, marines often appear in twos or threes. And paying for a full squad outright would be incredibly expensive, almost prohibitive (even without upgrades, a three-man Terminator squad would be 300 points).

As for Assault Marines: yeah, they're fast, but anything that causes Instant Death to a normal Marine will set you back 55pts with a single lucky shot. :\
They don't have access to weapons with more that a 12" range either, so they have to get in close and avoid enemy heavy weapons while doing so. I'm not familiar with the Wolf Lord... what stats does he have? Does he have Eternal Warrior?

And yeah, I'd love for all entities in 40k to be fluff-compliant. But I think most other armies have fairly accurate foot soldiers, and their problems lie mostly with bigger, rarer models (Avatars, C'tan, etc). They also aren't as prolific in 40k literature as Marines, and Space Marines, by all accounts, are far better soldiers than those we see on the tabletop.

I like the "2 wounds with FNP" idea though. I hadn't thought of that.

Riddick40k wrote:If a 75 Caliber explosive adamantium tip round can't peirce through Carapace kindly explain to me the cover picture on the space marine codex with a space marine blowing a hole straight through a choas marines power armour. You telling me carapace is stronger then power armour???

No, I would suggest he shot a weak point in the armor, or that that particular piece of art is contradictory to the fluff.

Carapace armor is able to protect against bolter shells. You can hit a weak point in carapace armor and get through it, sure, but hitting the flat plate of a carapace breastplate means you're unlikely to do anything but dizzy the wearer.

Just Dave wrote:I reckon the guns are well represented

Then you would be wrong.

Melissia wrote:

Just Dave wrote:I reckon the guns are well represented

Then you would be wrong.

And you would be welcome to your opinion but not to assume that it's right or that you should force it upon others.

What's wrong with the guns? If they're rending against infantry only, then it represents the ability of a mass-reactive RPG shell (effectively), fired by a highly skilled marksman, to effectively penetrate any armour. As it stands, it's not going to penetrate your carapace armour automatically (heaven forbid), but can potentially pierce any armour and is capable of wrecking light tanks. As the fluff suggests.

Melissia, you seem to be basing a fair few of your theories on Dark Heresy... and if tabletop 40k isn't truly representative of fluff, then why would DH be?

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:Melissia, you seem to be basing a fair few of your theories on Dark Heresy... and if tabletop 40k isn't truly representative of fluff, then why would DH be?

When Dark Heresy, Tabletop, AND Black Library agree with me, it's hard to argue to the contrary.


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Just Dave wrote:And you would be welcome to your opinion but not to assume that it's right

I'm not assuming my statement of fact is right, it's right because ti's backed up by the lore of the game, and yours is wrong not because I am assuming your uninformed opinion is wrong, but rather because it contradicts instead.

First of all I agree that marines are not accurately represented in the current tabletop format, both in rules and stature compared to other models.
However I have to chime in with some of the other posts here in saying that what you're doing is kind of a slippery slope.

Outside of the guardsmen you are apparently using for your baseline comparison, other races would require tremendous rebalancing. Why do these marine get special preference for poisoning but not daemons or necrons who are actually poison immune. I know marines are tough, but I mean according to your stats a marine who takes a plasma gun blast to the chest would be totally fine. I don't care how many organ implants you have, if a banshee exarch literally splits you in half with a power glaive then you should be dead, not at 2/3 health. Marines are the absolute best that humanity can field, but other races have serious bad asses too. What stats would an orc warboss have on this scale or an incubi klaivex?

And why are Orks, who are able to crush a human skull in their bare hands, only S3? Balance. No other reason. An Ork is easily as strong and durable as an Astartes, and in melee combat they're remarkably fast and agile on their feet, slashing and parrying even from an early age like masters of close combat.

But representing that in stats is difficult while also trying to represent their numbers.

On the topic of the space marine awesomeness, more specifically whether the BL novels or the TT game is more true to their spirit, the TT wins 100% of the time.

The BL novels are meant to compliment the TT game. Not the other way around.

Also, if you remember Rogue Trader, the pictures there were more often than not of space marines getting owned, because that's what happens...In Rynn's World kantor beat a god-damned Ork Warlord, which just doesn't happen.

Also, space marines don't operate in squads of two, I know it was unavoidable for your...special marines, but as a genral rule try not to contadict fluff TOO much.

@ Melissia-slashing, yes, parrying, no. Orks don't have the self preservation instinct we humans do. This is why they are so devastating, caution to the wind means more attacks .

Also, I may try to do some fluffy custodes rules, simply because they are awesome and only slightly weaker than Primarchs.


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Tortoiseer wrote:First of all I agree that marines are not accurately represented in the current tabletop format, both in rules and stature compared to other models.
However I have to chime in with some of the other posts here in saying that what you're doing is kind of a slippery slope.

Outside of the guardsmen you are apparently using for your baseline comparison, other races would require tremendous rebalancing. Why do these marine get special preference for poisoning but not daemons or necrons who are actually poison immune. I know marines are tough, but I mean according to your stats a marine who takes a plasma gun blast to the chest would be totally fine. I don't care how many organ implants you have, if a banshee exarch literally splits you in half with a power glaive then you should be dead, not at 2/3 health. Marines are the absolute best that humanity can field, but other races have serious bad asses too. What stats would an orc warboss have on this scale or an incubi klaivex?

QFT.


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Laodamia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Pulse weapons, which completely out class boltguns, are str 5.

That's slightly exaggerated, to say the least.

No, it isn't. Pulse weapons area amazingly powerful.

warhammer40k wiki wrote: Compared to other infantry weapons, the Pulse Rifle trades firing rate for damage; when compared to a Space Marine Bolter, it appears to work more like a hand held artillery piece, firing at one-third the rate but doing significantly more damage and having a much longer range

im2randomghgh wrote:@ Melissia-slashing, yes, parrying, no.

No, they also parry.

The more experienced Orks especially, but not JUST them.

Sorry for it being all over the place...also, this would take up an elite slot.


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Plz be the right link, Plz be the right link...