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Redirecting discussion from the N&R thread, which should be about the products themselves.

This thread is about whether CHS should be making them or not and whether GW might have recourse under the law against CHS for making them.

I realize people have strong feelings on this matter but remember to comply with all DakkaDakka rules -- including being polite to other users.

I personally do not care either way as I don't particularly care fo CH's stuff. Other people do and that's cool. I also play/paint strictly at a GW store so even if I liked these items, they would be iffy (not because my store manager would really care, because he probably wouldn't unless he knew he was getting a visit, but because I don't care to tempt getting staff that I really like in trouble.)

Bottom line: Flamebait thread.

unneeded comment removed. If one suspects a topic will be "flamebait" then there's really no need to add to the situation. Much obliged.

Reds8n

Do we really need another Chapter House thread?

Couldn't we sticky one of the other ones?

I think part of what makes Warhammer *work is the fact that it has so many aspect to makes the owners happy.
And certainly the modelling aspect is among one of them that makes people proud. And of course further *justify the amount of $ we dish out for some cheap plastic.

With that said , of course its convenient for CH to produce products that hopefully doesnt produce what GW / FW currently also have.
Less conversion / work for us to do i guess? However i cant but help feel , it takes away a little of the *spirit and fun in our little hobby.

Another example , GW since Tyranids have many units for example Tyranofex / Tervagon that no doubt wishes its customers to utilize
multiple kits to produce / convert / kit bash our own. Again while CH is convenient with producing the equivalent , Not-a-Tyranofex ,
im sure thats less sales for GW. ( bit's usage im sure contributes to what we perceive a worth of a kit to be )

So what bothers me i guess is , how ever little harm we do to GW to gain convenience , is it morally right or not?

Personally i think its wrong , obviously GW also think its wrong hence the little drama back then.
But will we sacrifice little morality for convenience? Im sure many will.

CT GAMER wrote:Do we really need another Chapter House thread?

Couldn't we sticky one of the other ones?

Seriously.

Such bush league sculpts (mostly. and my personal opinion) don't really deserve all the free press. Its pretty telling that dozens of bits/conversion companies can consistently release products of better quality and not elicit such ridiculousness.

Sidestepping the right or wrong, legally or morally, I think it was a great example of what NOT to do while currently involved with a lawsuit already.

mikhaila wrote:Sidestepping the right or wrong, legally or morally, I think it was a great example of what NOT to do while currently involved with a lawsuit already.

I dunno, the sales might help pay for the massive damages they've now guaranteed themselves to be hit with.

mikhaila, at the end of the day he still has bills to pay. What is he supposed to do?

Shut up shop and and file for bankruptcy? This has the same effect as continuing to put out 'not-minatures' and get sued. GW wins in either case.

The issue of whether he is legally entitled to do so rests in court and will be started next week, 11th I think, let the judge & jury decide.

IF CHS is proved to be right, I doubt that anyone who is proGW/antiCHS will change their minds and suddenly support them and vice versa.

I would also be interested to see who comes on to Dakka to apologise/retract for their stance once judgement has been reached?

Cheers

Andrew

AndrewC wrote:mikhaila, at the end of the day he still has bills to pay. What is he supposed to do?

Sorry, I didn't realize Chapterhouse was a business to keep themselves and their families fed. That changes everything!

I couldn't help but chuckle at this one. Most GW employees work two jobs and freelance on the side to "pay their bills".
What makes Chapterhouse so inherently profitable that they're able to afford supporting themselves through just that?

Shut up shop and and file for bankruptcy? This has the same effect as continuing to put out 'not-miniatures' and get sued. GW wins in either case.

And? I'm sorry that you think GW protecting its property is some kind of monstrous thing, but it's the way the world works.

The issue of whether he is legally entitled to do so rests in court and will be started next week, 11th I think, let the judge & jury decide.

No. "Entitled" isn't the correct word. You're not "entitled" to anything. This is a case of "can they legally get away with it".

IF CHS is proved to be right, I doubt that anyone who is proGW/antiCHS will change their minds and suddenly support them and vice versa.

I would also be interested to see who comes on to Dakka to apologise/retract for their stance once judgement has been reached?

Why would anyone come onto Dakka to apologize or retract for their stance? People aren't taking their stances, for the most part, based upon facts. They're doing it based on emotion.

You'll notice that the majority of pro-Chapterhouse posts are from people who constantly complain about GW. Or people who state that GW has a "monopoly"(which is an adorable sentiment) and that it's "time for that to be broken".
You'll also note that the majority of the "antiCHS" people aren't "proGW". They're "anti" Chapterhouse because of the behavior consistently exhibited by the representatives of the company.

Anyone seen my club - I cannot remember where I left it after that last dead horse I beat during a GW price whine thread.

No-one's opinion on this is going to change from the last 20+ threads on this. Wait for the case to reach judgement and then we will have the answer to most of this instead of indulging in wild speculation with (for most people) no idea about legal theories or ethical systems.

"Ethical systems" don't require a legal case to be concluded to be applied to situations.

They're based upon an individual's values and the perceptions of societies.

You're right though. No matter what, people's opinions aren't going to change about their perceptions of the companies.

The legalities of it though they'll probably debate too.

Kanluwen, you may be reading my post the wrong way.

Mikhaila seemed to be inferring that CHS should have shut up shop until the court case is over, GW wants CHS shut down any way possible, I was trying to point out that closing means that CHS goes bust, and adding additional sculpts isn't going to change anything if they lose the case.

'Entitled', you've never been at the job centre when it's signing on time then.....(Sorry that may be UK humour, if it doesn't translate across the water I apologise)

The point about retraction is the holier than thou stances taken in the other thread that prompted this one. The absolutes.

'Anti' CHS could you please point me in the direction of some of the sources of their bad behaviour, because all I've seen to date is bear baiting.

Cheers

Andrew

Legally, I cannot say.

But my opinion of CHS product is that it is lacking in any creativity. The only product I really like is the Tau a like Titan mainly because as a whole it isn't terribly Tau.

The Seer sculpt really puts me off CHS output. It could have been a space elf caster it could have been tweaked enough to be used in other fictional gaming worlds, the directive from CHS could have been, 'lets give sly nod to GW but lets make something ALL OF OUR OWN be creative'. All that happened was a rip off seer was made and advertised mainly due to the 'obvious' head/helm.

CHS are talented but they will still fail to take my hard earned without coming with something which doesn't smack of 'me too'.

Give me something clever and smart to bang on the table top. I know you can do it.

AndrewC wrote:Kanluwen, you may be reading my post the wrong way.

Mikhaila seemed to be inferring that CHS should have shut up shop until the court case is over, GW wants CHS shut down any way possible, I was trying to point out that closing means that CHS goes bust, and adding additional sculpts isn't going to change anything if they lose the case.

No, he was inferring that CHS shouldn't have released this particular model in the way that it was originally done(with the shop description being of a 'Doomseer' from the Craftworld of Malan'tai, seeking to destroy the Doom of Malan'tai) and this particular model, which is pretty clearly an Eldar Farseer, might have been better to keep on ice until after the case.

'Entitled', you've never been at the job centre when it's signing on time then.....(Sorry that may be UK humour, if it doesn't translate across the water I apologise)

No, I got the humour. But it still doesn't change that you're not legally 'entitled' to be able to use other people's work to do your own without some serious loopholes to go through.

The point about retraction is the holier than thou stances taken in the other thread that prompted this one. The absolutes.

I don't think we're reading the same threads. The legality of things will always be kind of in flux in this area. There's always going to be people questioning it.
Morality and ethics, however, will always lead to "holier than thou" stances.

'Anti' CHS could you please point me in the direction of some of the sources of their bad behaviour, because all I've seen to date is bear baiting.

Whose bad behavior? You can just read earlier on in the CH thread or you could have read it yesterday in the FW Salamander thread.

Admittedly, the second one was responding to flamebaiting but still. It doesn't help the community think better of you when you do it.

Morally I think they have every right. Legally I'll leave to the courts to decide.

What I do know is that if the doomseer model had been given an elf head option (with or without fantasy helmet) he could have sold it to warhammer fans as well. Increasing the potential buyers a lot for very little extra work...

He could even have sold it as a fantasy model in the main pic, which happened to have a space helmet option as well.

Ah well.

AndrewC wrote:mikhaila, at the end of the day he still has bills to pay. What is he supposed to do?

Shut up shop and and file for bankruptcy? This has the same effect as continuing to put out 'not-minatures' and get sued. GW wins in either case.

The issue of whether he is legally entitled to do so rests in court and will be started next week, 11th I think, let the judge & jury decide.

IF CHS is proved to be right, I doubt that anyone who is proGW/antiCHS will change their minds and suddenly support them and vice versa.

Cheers

Andrew

I think this a nice summation, well put.

Grimstonefire wrote:Morally I think they have every right. Legally I'll leave to the courts to decide.

I definitely have to disagree here.

I don't think that you "morally" have a right to create models directly based upon someone else's ideas, and profit off that.

But I do think I have a double standard as if it had been an improvement upon the concept or expressed differently, rather than just a pale shadow of an imitation based upon the original I would find it more acceptable.

Legally, well no one can answer that because it's being tested right now and until it's resolved we don't really know whose side the law falls on. Like 99% of the people here I'm not legally trained. The number of people saying that GW will 'lose their IP' and that 'CH are guilty' just annoy me, people are reacting to something that isn't a real reflection of reality. GW won't lose their IP, and it's a civil matter not a criminal one.

Morally?! That's language is getting a bit heavy. Is what they do immoral? I don't see that GW or anyone else is being hurt.

I don't claim to know which way it will go, but I would like to see Chapterhouse remain in business after this. That's because I don't believe they harm GW and are beneficial to us as hobbyists. From a hobbyist point of view they can only enrich the hobby, not harm it. If you don't like their stuff don't buy it, but it's there for other people.

I can't see why people would be against Chapterhouse or making such an effort to brand them as being obviously in the wrong unless it's because they mistakenly worry about a perceived threat (loss of GW IP) or because they are GW fanoys, or because they have taken a personal dislike to CH. Because from what I can see, the hobby can either have GW and CH, or just GW, so one in which CH remains is good.

AndrewC wrote:Kanluwen, you may be reading my post the wrong way.

Mikhaila seemed to be inferring that CHS should have shut up shop until the court case is over, GW wants CHS shut down any way possible, I was trying to point out that closing means that CHS goes bust, and adding additional sculpts isn't going to change anything if they lose the case.

'Entitled', you've never been at the job centre when it's signing on time then.....(Sorry that may be UK humour, if it doesn't translate across the water I apologise)

The point about retraction is the holier than thou stances taken in the other thread that prompted this one. The absolutes.

'Anti' CHS could you please point me in the direction of some of the sources of their bad behaviour, because all I've seen to date is bear baiting.

Cheers

Andrew

No, Mikhaila was saying that when involved in a lawsuit, doing things that help the other guy win their case is stupid.) Sell the frigging "space elf psychic witch for use with futuristic wargames". Don't link the damn thing to GW in anyway, and give them something else to take to court. JMHO.

Sales of the model probably don't depend much on a bit of GWesque fluff.

They seem to be looking for trouble basically.

Can we make a new forum section just for chapter house threads? Come on, they make models that GW doesnt want to do. Morality has little to do with it

Trademark law has nothing to do with right or wrong, its a set of business rules decided upon. STEALING someone's sculpt is different than creating your own sculpts *based* upon anothers idea

Whats next, they make a model of a "cup" and someone yells at them for stealing the idea of a drinking glass? This kind of stuff happens every second in the real world. A competitor makes something so you copy them then develop something they dont have.. They copy you, etc, etc

I don't even like the term "legality" because that has more of a connotation with criminal courts than civil.. There is very little morality involved in civil cases as they are based upon something other than values and mores that criminal law is more concerned with

Yes you can do something illegal in a civil court sense, but jay walking is against the law.. That doesnt mean youre an immoral person

Tone down the rhetoric imo or.. make a new chapter house forum section

Howard A Treesong wrote:Legally, well no one can answer that because it's being tested right now and until it's resolved we don't really know whose side the law falls on. Like 99% of the people here I'm not legally trained. The number of people saying that GW will 'lose their IP' and that 'CH are guilty' just annoy me, people are reacting to something that isn't a real reflection of reality. GW won't lose their IP, and it's a civil matter not a criminal one.

To be fair, most people aren't saying "GW will lose their IP". They're saying that GW will lose control over what is done with their IP. There's a difference.

Morally?! That's language is getting a bit heavy. Is what they do immoral? I don't see that GW or anyone else is being hurt.

It's really not "getting a bit heavy" to say that there's a moral component here.
If you're at college and you write a thesis that draws heavily upon the writings of someone else and you claim it is 100% your own--you're committing plagiarism.

I don't claim to know which way it will go, but I would like to see Chapterhouse remain in business after this. That's because I don't believe they harm GW and are beneficial to us as hobbyists. From a hobbyist point of view they can only enrich the hobby, not harm it. If you don't like their stuff don't buy it, but it's there for other people.

From my hobbyist point of view they're not "enriching" it. They're just dumping stuff in there and hoping it sticks or someone will buy it.

I say this as someone who likes Scibor and MaxMini's stuff. I won't buy them, simply because I don't need them, but they are nice additions or alternative views of the source material.

Chapterhouse is just imitating (fairly poorly at that) the style that is already present. The second GW makes stuff readily available that CH is selling, I don't see there being a market for CH anymore.
I feel the same way about Pig Iron for that matter. But at least Pig Iron is branching out and making their own complete line and supposedly a game too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kirasu wrote:Can we make a new forum section just for chapter house threads? Come on, they make models that GW doesnt want to do. Morality has little to do with it

Trademark law has nothing to do with right or wrong, its a set of business rules decided upon. STEALING someone's sculpt is different than creating your own sculpts *based* upon anothers idea

Whats next, they make a model of a "cup" and someone yells at them for stealing the idea of a drinking glass? This kind of stuff happens every second in the real world. A competitor makes something so you copy them then develop something they dont have.. They copy you, etc, etc

I don't even like the term "legality" because that has more of a connotation with criminal courts than civil.. There is very little morality involved in civil cases as they are based upon something other than values and mores that criminal law is more concerned with

Yes you can do something illegal in a civil court sense, but jay walking is against the law.. That doesnt mean youre an immoral person

Tone down the rhetoric imo or.. make a new chapter house forum section

If you're going to say "tone down the rhetoric" take your own advice.

This concept of "GW doesn't want to make the models" is absurd.

And again: you're calling Chapterhouse a competitor. That's not the case. They're currently in a symbiotic relationship with GW. If GW goes, CH goes.

A competitor is Privateer Press, West Wind Studios, Corvus Belli, etc. Companies producing their own games and lines.

Kanluwen wrote:
I don't think that you "morally" have a right to create models directly based upon someone else's ideas, and profit off that.

That's funny because that's exactly how Citadel miniatures got started. They made miniatures for other people's games, D&D in particular. So let's not pretend that GW has any moral ascendancy here.

Oh boy, this topic has a flamebait written all over it. Legal and moral are two different things. While it's legal to visit an... ahem... abode of women of ill-repute in the state of Nevada, many people see it as immoral and wrong.

Talking about ethics is as good as talking about religion, politics or diet during Thanksgiving dinner with your ex-wife's vegan mother. Everyone marches to a different tune.

GW didn't like what Chapterhouse is doing so they sue. Chapterhouse defends itself. Let the lawyers work it out. [sarcasm mode on]May he who has the deepest pockets win! That's the American way![sarcasm mode off]

Arschbombe wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I don't think that you "morally" have a right to create models directly based upon someone else's ideas, and profit off that.

That's funny because that's exactly how Citadel miniatures got started. They made miniatures for other people's games, D&D in particular. So let's not pretend that GW has any moral ascendancy here.

And the difference is Citadel miniatures did it under license.

Maxstreel wrote:Oh boy, this topic has a flamebait written all over it. Legal and moral are two different things. While it's legal to visit an... ahem... abode of women of ill-repute in the state of Nevada, many people see it as immoral and wrong.

Talking about ethics is as good as talking about religion, politics or diet during Thanksgiving dinner with your ex-wife's vegan mother. Everyone marches to a different tune.

GW didn't like what Chapterhouse is doing so they sue. Chapterhouse defends itself. Let the lawyers work it out. [sarcasm mode on]May he who has the deepest pockets win! That's the American way![sarcasm mode off]

Some of us were almost prescient about it.

and by "some of us" I mean "me" and by "almost" I mean "completely".

Wierd.

There are several companies producing after market parts for 40K, such as CH, Bitspudlo and MaxMini.

The only difference is that CH have boldly labelled the parts according to GW's names and the others haven't.

CH say they took legal advice about this approach before they started.

GW's legal department thinks CH's lawyers got it wrong and have sued CH.

The case begins very soon.

That is not a moral matter, it is a legal matter.

If it is immoral to produce after market bits for 40K, why are Bitspudlo and MaxMini not immoral?

Kanluwen wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:Legally, well no one can answer that because it's being tested right now and until it's resolved we don't really know whose side the law falls on. Like 99% of the people here I'm not legally trained. The number of people saying that GW will 'lose their IP' and that 'CH are guilty' just annoy me, people are reacting to something that isn't a real reflection of reality. GW won't lose their IP, and it's a civil matter not a criminal one.

To be fair, most people aren't saying "GW will lose their IP". They're saying that GW will lose control over what is done with their IP. There's a difference.

Not to be rude, but you don't appear to quite grasp the subtlety of IP here. IP rights are not like interests in real property; if CHS prevails in their suit they won't be getting an easement on GW's IP. Since the boundaries of IP are what you are able to exclude others from, this loss of control is potentially a loss of the IP itself.

Kanluwen wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:
Morally?! That's language is getting a bit heavy. Is what they do immoral? I don't see that GW or anyone else is being hurt.

It's really not "getting a bit heavy" to say that there's a moral component here.
If you're at college and you write a thesis that draws heavily upon the writings of someone else and you claim it is 100% your own--you're committing plagiarism.

Good artists copy, great artists steal. (Hehe, "We have always been shameless at stealing great ideas... )

Kanluwen wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:
I don't claim to know which way it will go, but I would like to see Chapterhouse remain in business after this. That's because I don't believe they harm GW and are beneficial to us as hobbyists. From a hobbyist point of view they can only enrich the hobby, not harm it. If you don't like their stuff don't buy it, but it's there for other people.

From my hobbyist point of view they're not "enriching" it. They're just dumping stuff in there and hoping it sticks or someone will buy it.

I say this as someone who likes Scibor and MaxMini's stuff. I won't buy them, simply because I don't need them, but they are nice additions or alternative views of the source material.

Chapterhouse is just imitating (fairly poorly at that) the style that is already present. The second GW makes stuff readily available that CH is selling, I don't see there being a market for CH anymore.
I feel the same way about Pig Iron for that matter. But at least Pig Iron is branching out and making their own complete line and supposedly a game too.

It's almost as if you didn't like CHS... Given that the difference between "enriching" and "dumping stuff in there and hoping it sticks" is wholly subjective...

I do think that CH should have made '28mm scale alien broodmother' (tevigon) and said 'compatable with XYZ rather than saying :THIS IS FOR 40K WOOT SCREW GW IP! is asking for a slap

The whole moral thing is a bit... well, if GW was a little operation run by a bunch of dedicated guys rather than the corporate entity it has become, it would be easier to say that CHS are morally wrong. As it stands, it's more based on whether... Actually, what is it based on? Why is anyone outraged by CHS's actions? They are making their own sculpts, not making moulds and selling knock-offs. Sure it's not original, but immoral? Hm.

Legally, opinions don't mean much to me, no offence to anyone intended. The courts ruling will be the courts ruling and will be based on the work of the lawyers. I'll certainly be interested in the outcome.

What seems far more interesting to me is what people think will be the consequences of a win for GW, or more so, a win for CHS.