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HQ: 87 points
-Shas'el, Multi-tracker, Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod

Elite: 496 points
-2 Crisis Suits, Multi-trackers, Plasma Rifles, Missile Pods
-3 Crisis Suits, Multi-trackers, Plasma Rifles, Missile Pods
-3 Crisis Suits, Multi-trackers, Plasma Rifles, Missile Pods

Fast Attack: 341 points
-8 Pathfinders, Devilfish, Disruption Pod
-Piranha, Fusion Blaster, Disruption Pod, Targeting Array
-Piranha, Fusion Blaster, Disruption Pod, Targeting Array

Troops: 418 points
-6 Fire Warriors (hijack Pathfinder's Devilfish on turn 1)
-20 Kroots, Shaper, 3 Kroot Hounds
-20 Kroots, Shaper, 3 Kroot Hounds

Heavy Support: 508 points
-Hammerhead, Railgun, SMS, Multi-tracker, Disruption Pod, Target Lock
-Hammerhead, Railgun, SMS, Multi-tracker, Disruption Pod, Target Lock
-2 Broadsides, 1 Target Lock, 1 Blacksun filter

Total Points: 1850 flat
Total Scoring: 3
Total Kill Points: 14

Looks good. Fishing for anything specific? BAOpen?

Brothererekose wrote:Looks good. Fishing for anything specific? BAOpen?

I'm not familiar with the term "BAOpen".

I plan to use this list in an upcoming tournament a couple weeks from now. Usually there's a lot of MEQ players.

i like this list alot, i think the only thing ive noticed from expierience with tau is that broadsides are always better than hammerheads. true hammerheads have submission fire, but in return you can trade both hammerheads, for 2 more 2 man broadside squads, each with target lock blacksun filter, and can even equip each broadside with twin linked plasma guns.

broadsides have a solid awesome armor save, multiple wounds and can grant cover saves much easier than a hammerhead.

a hammer head does have a 4 bs. but even a basic broadside is BS 3 , but their railgun is twin linked. statistically the broadside is better. bs 4 is a 66% chance to hit, BS 3 twin linked is a 75% chance to hit. and its 2 extra railguns than normal


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ignore the blacksun filter i said on the broadsides

SabrX wrote:I'm not familiar with the term "BAOpen".

I plan to use this list in an upcoming tournament a couple weeks from now. Usually there's a lot of MEQ players.

The Bay Area Open?

I'd up the XV88s to a full three suits, losing a FK someplace, given lots more StormRaven GK & BA lists. A TL-RG vs. a MissilePod ought to do better, vs. AV12, yes?

Well Sabr, you're on the right track and you've got a decent skeleton of a list. Now we've got to flesh it out.

First, your HQ slots. You have two HQ slots, in which you can take up to six crisis suits. Here you have one. At all point levels, I try to fit six suits into the HQ slot, because you need BS4 fireknives. Remember: you need to take the most amount of guns for the least number of points, but they also need to be the right kind of guns. You can't take BS4 fireknives in the elite slot, which means you have to get them in the HQ slot.

You're HQ here is very good—a standard fireknife. However, you need more of them. By cutting points elsewhere, you can fit six fireknives into the HQ slot. So, you're HQ is going to look like this:

1 Shas'el 87
-Plasma Rifle
-Missile Pod
-Multi-tracker
2 Bodyguard 164
-Plasma Rifle x2
-Missile Pod x2
-Targeting Array x2
-Hard-Wired Multi-tracker x2

All of that times 2. Trust me, it'll work.

Next I will discuss your elite choices. Another principle with which you should acquaint yourself, is that tau are actually a BS4 army—we just pay a premium for it. So whenever possible, you should make your stuff BS4. With my HQ units, I run plasma/missile pod because I can also make the unit BS4. Unfortunately, with the elite suits, you can't make the whole unit BS4 AND give it plasma/missile pods. Therefore, you need to audible to another configuration:

3 Crisis Suits 159
-TL Missile Pods x3
-Targeting Array

This configuration is, first and foremost, cheap. You can take three of these units for fewer points than you already have allocated in your list. Also, the unit is very accurate. You should detail this unit to take down light vehicles, MC's and infantry. Remember: S7 insta-kills T3, so it ignores Dark Eldar FNP and the rare IG company command squad that takes a medic. The plasma/missile pod configuration is theoretically a little more “killy” but it's also less accurate. I suspect the plasma/missile pod configuration is actually LESS killy than the TL missile pod configuration.

ASIDE: stealthsuits are really terrible. They're expensive and only kill infantry. Even when you equip them with fusion blasters, they're not that good because they're fragile (only T3) inaccurate (BS3) and still mostly mono-task. They don't score. In short, you shouldn't take them at all, especially because they take up an elite slot that should be reserved for the strictly superior, multi-task crisis suit. END ASIDE.

Onto your troop choices. I see by your inclusion of only one unit of fire warriors that you have grasped another basic tau principle: fire warriors suck. However, your kroot units are bloated. First, you should always take a minimum number of carnivores and as many hounds as you can manage. They're strictly better than kroot carnivores; just look at their stat line. Finally, kroot shapers are a total waste of points. Use those 21 points to buy three more hounds instead.

I run 10 carnivores coupled with anywhere between 5-8 hounds, and that unit runs between 100-118, which gives you between four-six more bodies than a unit of fire warriors for fewer points. Something important to note, however, is that kroot are not an offensive choice. I know this goes against the grain of my preaching elsewhere on this post, but it's important to have kroot meat shields to protect against outflanking wolf scouts and deep striking daemons and nids. You just have to spread the kroot out 2” apart from each other and distribute them either along your flanking table edge (in the case of outflankers) or throughout your deployment zone where the rest of your army is (in the case of deep strikers). However, don't forget that kroot can infiltrate—use that to your advantage. By infiltrating you can quite easily set up so that you have a protected flank and a protected deployment zone. That gives you protection from outflankers and deep strikers AND gives your suits cover saves against high-strength, low-AP weaponry.

ASIDE (TAU VEHICLES): devilfish and hammerheads aren't bad—they're actually quite good. The problem is that good tau lists end up spending so many points on suits that you don't usually have space for either hammerheads or devilfish. The situation is especially dire for hammerheads because they take up a heavy support slot that should be reserved for broadsides. The math reveals the problem: two broadsides with a 10-point wargear on each cost 160 points, while a properly kitted-out hammerhead costs 165 (hammerhead + railgun + multi-tracker + burst cannons + disruption pod). The broadsides are more accurate and sport more guns. However, if you do manage to fit a devilfish into your list, you should either run it stripped-down (a plain devilfish with only a disruption pod upgrade for 85 points) or run it as a warfish (SMART missile system, disruption pod, targeting array, multi-tracker for 120 points). If you run anything else (and that includes flechette launchers) I think you're wasting points. END ASIDE.

Fast Attack: this is probably the least important FOC slot for tau. Your two viable options are pathfinders and piranha. They fulfill different functions. Pathfinders are force-multipliers (sort of). They make the rest of your army a little better during the shooting phase with their markerlights. While nuking cover saves is incredibly helpful, you pay a premium for it. Pathfinders are BS3, so only half of their markerlights will usually hit. Plus you have to buy a devilfish, which increases their cost. So a full unit of pathfinders plus a warfish costs 216 points. An MSU of pathfinders plus a stripped-down warfish will only cost you 133 points. You can vary the amount you spend on the unit, but at the end of the day, I just don't think pathfinders justify their cost. I think piranha are a superior choice. Piranha serve to control the movement and shooting of your opponent for one to two turns. Turn one your turbo-boost them in front of your opponents vehicles. If they try to ram them, you will dodge 2/3 of the time. If they shoot you, you have a 4+ cover save. If a piranha lives for more than one turn, (and sometimes they don't) you will probably kill a vehicle, further stymieing your opponent's movement. I advise running piranha like this:

1 Piranha 75
-Fusion Blaster
-Disruption Pod
-Targeting Array

I used to run more of them, and kitted out differently, but GW faq'd them, so now I run them singly as I have them above. With the new FAQ and the need for plasma (primarily b/c of BA), piranha are less important at lower point levels. However, I still think you should take a couple for the threat of close-range meltaguns and the meat-shielding gun drones.

Finally, I'll discuss your heavy support slots. The best heavy support choice tau have is the broadside battlesuit. Properly kitted out, a two-man broadside team costs about the same as one properly kitted-out hammerhead. (See my previous aside for the numbers breakdown). At the end of the day, because there are so many vehicles running around, and nids can still run so many MC's, the broadside is the best choice you have for the heavy support slot. I tend to run them in either 2 or 3 man units. I'm glad to see you've resisted the urge to give them shield drones. Shield drones violate the above-mentioned principle of not taking wargear that doesn't involve shooting or, in the case of multi-trackers and disruption pods, doesn't make your stuff better at shooting or more survivable at a rock-bottom value. Besides, shield drones count for 25% morale checks when they die. It really sucks seeing your 280-point broadside unit run off the table because you lost 30 points of defensive wargear intended to make the unit more survivable. To make your suits more survivable, it's a much better idea to keep them in cover either via kroot meat shield or drone meat shield.

ASIDE (BROADSIDE PLASMA): sometimes I see people running broadsides with TL plasma guns and multi-trackers. I think this is a mistake because it needlessly increases the cost of the unit and doesn't add to the unit's primary task of popping vehicles. The upgrade tries to make the unit multi-task. Don't do it. The unit is best left as a mono-task tank popper. Trust me, if you've already killed all your opponent's vehicles, then you've won the game. If you haven't, then the broadsides should still be shooting at vehicles. END ASIDE.

The only thing left to decide is what support system you'll give the broadsides. Your two best choices are the targeting array or the advanced stabilization system. The A.S.S. gives the unit Slow and Purposeful, which affords them a degree of maneuverability. I tend to err on the side of the A.S.S. even though I hate being BS3. The upgrades cost the same, so I leave it to your discretion. Just know that I recommend the A.S.S.

So, wrapping everything up, here is a list I recommend:

--HQ-- 1850/1850

1 Shas'el 87
-Plasma Rifle
-Missile Pod
-Multi-tracker
2 Bodyguard 164
-Plasma Rifle x2
-Missile Pod x2
-Targeting Array x2
--HW Multi-tracker x2

1 Shas'el 87
-Plasma Rifle
-Missile Pod
-Multi-tracker
2 Bodyguard 164
-Plasma Rifle x2
-Missile Pod x2
-Targeting Array x2
--HW Multi-tracker x2

--Elites--

3 Crisis Suit 159
-TL Missile Pod x3
-Targeting Array x3

3 Crisis Suit 159
-TL Missile Pod x3
-Targeting Array x3

--Troops--

6 Fire warriors 60

10 Kroot Carnivores 106
5 Kroot Hounds

10 Kroot Carnivores 106
5 Kroot Hounds

10 Kroot Carnivores 106
5 Kroot Hounds

--Fast Attack--

1 Piranha 75
-Fusion Blaster
-Disruption Pod
-Targeting Array

1 Piranha 75
-Fusion Blaster
-Disruption Pod
-Targeting Array

--Heavy Support--

2 Broadside Battlesuits 170
-A.S.S. x2
-Team Leader
-Target Lock

2 Broadside Battlesuits 170
-A.S.S. x2
-Team Leader
--Target Lock

2 Broadside Battlesuits 170
-A.S.S. x2
-Team Leader

Hope this helps,

Knute

@Knute:

I appreciate your input.

I may implement your Kroot idea, but the rest of my list will remain the same.

Paying 20 additional points just to boost Fire Knife BS is too expensive. A Bodyguard unit doesn't protect the commander anymore than a regular 2 elite Crisis Team. Opponents will set it as a higher threat and single out the BS4 Suits first before shooting the rest. This is lessens their survivability.

For the boost in BS, I have Pathfinders and a cheap Devilfish. The Devilfish is a must! It can house a small Fire Warrior team and hold home objective or attempt to capture enemy objective's. Kroots aren't enough. Kroot's role is bubble-wrap meat shields to protect the gun line.

I'm not a fan of Deathrain. Deathrain vs. Fireknife is a heated discussion and both have their merits. I expect to play against mostly MEQ, so more AP2 helps.

Dual Broadsides are nice and I plan on making another list in the future that revolves around it. However, Hammerheads are much more effective against MEQ, which I expect to face in the upcoming tournament. You'd be surprise how effective a Str6 Large Blast is to a just standard marines. Furthermore, Hammerheads can be used to tank shock enemy infantry out of cover, contest objectives late game, and obscure TLOS to JSJ Crisis Suits.

If you really wanted to tank shock stuff and contest objectives at the last minute, just take more devilfish. They do all the same stuff (obscure LOS to suits, tank shock, contest objectives) and they do it cheaper. Just drop the kroot altogether and run fire warriors.

Also, I strongly disagree with the statement that hammerheads are better against MEQ's. All the MEQ lists I see running around roll with bunches of rhino chassis vehicles with combat squads or MSU. You're not gonna be able to kill those marines until you dismount them, and even then a pie plate is going to net you, at best, 5 hits (because who takes full squads these days? Bad players?). Assume all of them wound. You might kill 2 of them. That's all assuming that you don't deviate substantially, and that you wound all of them. Even if you just fire two railgun shots at a 5-man squad, you'll probably kill the same number (b/c the armor save is reduced to a cover save).

Killing marines is what the missile pods are for AFTER the railguns pop the transports. The extra fireknives in the HQ slot are there to kill stupid BA + FNP. To that extent, my list might have fewer plasma rifles, but they're all BS4 whereas yours are BS3. 6 fireknives at BS4 can kill just as many MEQ's as 9 BS3 fireknives.

Furthermore, even if you did go with the hammerheads, your current configuration is a little bloated. Why the SMS and target lock? You're most likely going to be moving 12" a turn to keep up with the JSJ crisis suits, which means you won't be shooting the SMS that often. You'll also need to move to get side shots and the like. Finally, the SMS is 2 fewer shots than the two burst cannons. I always advise going with burst cannons over the SMS b/c (a) they're cheaper and (b) they're more shots. yes, they're shorter range, but by the time you need to shoot everything the enemy will probably be close enough to render that a moot point.

Hope that helps.

Knute

Knute wrote:If you really wanted to tank shock stuff and contest objectives at the last minute, just take more devilfish. They do all the same stuff (obscure LOS to suits, tank shock, contest objectives) and they do it cheaper. Just drop the kroot altogether and run fire warriors.

I tend to field only one Devilfishs and its intended role is to hold home objective or obscure my JSJ suits. Tank shock is situational. I don't need to field more Devilfishs than necessary as its not my primary tactic. However, Hammerheads do have that feature, which adds to their versatility.

Also, I strongly disagree with the statement that hammerheads are better against MEQ's. All the MEQ lists I see running around roll with bunches of rhino chassis vehicles with combat squads or MSU. You're not gonna be able to kill those marines until you dismount them, and even then a pie plate is going to net you, at best, 5 hits (because who takes full squads these days? Bad players?). Assume all of them wound. You might kill 2 of them. That's all assuming that you don't deviate substantially, and that you wound all of them. Even if you just fire two railgun shots at a 5-man squad, you'll probably kill the same number (b/c the armor save is reduced to a cover save).

You over generalize Marines. Yes MSU razor-spam is popular, but its a slippery slope to say everyone is doing it. And while Loading up on Broadsides is good against mech armies, it isn't so against horde. The majority of the players at the upcoming tournament will be MEQ, but the second most popular army at the store I frequent is Nids and Orks. I also expect to face the new GK, which doesn't have as nearly enough razorbacks as other Marine armies (except for Corteaz henchmen mech spam).

Hammerheads offers versatility and don't need to be baby sit by bubble wrap kroots. It's also more mobile, making it difficult to catch. It can also contests objectives. If I was playing against an MEQ list that wasn't MSU razor-spam, then having high strength pie plates would be much more useful.

Killing marines is what the missile pods are for AFTER the railguns pop the transports. The extra fireknives in the HQ slot are there to kill stupid BA + FNP. To that extent, my list might have fewer plasma rifles, but they're all BS4 whereas yours are BS3. 6 fireknives at BS4 can kill just as many MEQ's as 9 BS3 fireknives.

And 6 Fire Knife BS4 Fire Knife suits + 3 BS5 Fire Knife suits will kill more MEQ than 6 BS4 Fire Knife suits assuming 4/8 markerlight hits. Now you may argue your 2 command squads can fire BS4 at separate targets, but most of the time, they will be focus firing a single unit its neutralize.

Furthermore, even if you did go with the hammerheads, your current configuration is a little bloated. Why the SMS and target lock? You're most likely going to be moving 12" a turn to keep up with the JSJ crisis suits, which means you won't be shooting the SMS that often. You'll also need to move to get side shots and the like. Finally, the SMS is 2 fewer shots than the two burst cannons. I always advise going with burst cannons over the SMS b/c (a) they're cheaper and (b) they're more shots. yes, they're shorter range, but by the time you need to shoot everything the enemy will probably be close enough to render that a moot point.

Hope that helps.

Knute

Target Lock allows the Hammerhead to engage 2 units at once. SMS is good against infiltrators, outflankers, and models hidden by TLOS. I've lost many Annihlation games where a single model some how survives my shooting and finds a large piece of terrain to hide behind.

Also, Hammerheads don't last long if they are using their Burst Cannons. Placing them within 18" of an enemy unit puts them at risk of getting shot by Meltaguns or enemy anti-tank past the Disruption Pod bubble.

Here's a final list implementing Knute's kroot idea:

HQ: 87 points
-Shas'el, Multi-tracker, Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod

Elite: 496 points
-2 Crisis Suits, Multi-trackers, Plasma Rifles, Missile Pods
-3 Crisis Suits, Multi-trackers, Plasma Rifles, Missile Pods
-3 Crisis Suits, Multi-trackers, Plasma Rifles, Missile Pods

Fast Attack: 341 points
-8 Pathfinders, Devilfish, Disruption Pod
-Piranha, Fusion Blaster, Disruption Pod, Targeting Array
-Piranha, Fusion Blaster, Disruption Pod, Targeting Array

Troops: 396 points
-6 Fire Warriors (hijack Pathfinder's Devilfish on turn 1)
-10 Kroots, 7 Kroot Hounds
-10 Kroots, 7 Kroot Hounds
-10 Kroots, 7 Kroot Hounds

Heavy Support: 530 points
-Hammerhead, Railgun, SMS, Multi-tracker, Disruption Pod, Target Lock
-Hammerhead, Railgun, SMS, Multi-tracker, Disruption Pod, Target Lock
-2 Broadsides, Advance Stabilization System, team leader, Target Lock.

Total Points: 1850 flat
Total Scoring: 4
Total Kill Points: 15

On the plus side, another kroot bubble wrap squad, 4 scoring units, and now the Broadsides are mobile. Unfortunately there's now an additional kill point.

Nice i really like the updated list! did you say your taking this to the bay area open ? I should be there with my tau list. I personally prefer 2 broadside teams 3 or 3 BS teams of 2. Then I try to make up for the threat of horde enemy's by using 1 or 2 PR, BC, MT teams. I just do not like the high point cost of 1 railgun shot form the hammer head, anyways gl though it'll be interesting to see how this list works out!

Unfortunately, I don't think I'll be able to make it. Even though I live in the Bay Area, I don't have a ride to Contra Costa County Fairgrounds. Plus, I may have summer school.

I'm going to a small tournament held at GW Oakridge. Usually 6 - 8 regulars attend. It's competitive, but not ultra-power list competitive. If I was going to a serious tournament, then I would use a list similar to what Knute posted, but with more Kroots.

It would be a variation of this list:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/365294.page

But with more Piranhas.

I like the last list, the Kroot were a bit allover the place in the original config. I'd probably dorp the Targetlock on the broadside though it is useless. To have a decent chance of taking down any tank you need both firing at the same target.

Personally I'd get them a shield drone instead (or at least a gundrone). Dropping the rather useless disruption pods from the Piranha - if I'm not turboboosting to gain a coversave I'm shooting and therefore within 6" of the enemy...

I really like the new list except I would strongly suggest you drop the SMS down to 2 burst cannons and get 2 gun drones for ablative wounds for those broadsides. With that slight change I think you'll have a very strong TAC tau list.

Meh, the revised list is better. I still recommend b-sides over hammerheads, and more crisis suits over pathfinders (especially if you're worried about staying mobile).

Good luck with it.