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Bonjour.

Something is puzzling me. Every chaos space marine from one of the founding legions dates from the Horus Heresy and is over ten thousand years old. Why are there no loyalist marines from that period still alive?

One could put it down to attrition, but if that were the case, there wouldn't be any ancient chaos marines either, and the traitor legions would need to take new recruits, which Im pretty sure they don't do.

Or one could put it down to 'time flows differently in the warp' so chronologically, maybe they're only about a thousand, even though technically they've been living for ten times that. I have a feeling that might be it, but it seems a bit convenient.

thoughts?

The big thing is the warp distorts time, a few seconds in the warp could be the equivilant of decades or centuries to us.
look at lysander and read his fluff he was stuck in the warp for 1K years as a prisoner and then came out and didnt really age.
the warp will also distort stuff like aging as well i would imagine. also remember that space marines themselves can live ridiculously long lives. i mean dante is extremely old, if i remember right he is the oldest living space marine not in a dreadnought. and then you got bjorn who was around back during the heresy.

nsdocholiday wrote:The big thing is the warp distorts time, a few seconds in the warp could be the equivilant of decades or centuries to us.
look at lysander and read his fluff he was stuck in the warp for 1K years as a prisoner and then came out and didnt really age.
the warp will also distort stuff like aging as well i would imagine.

So correct. For all we know, it could seem to the Chaos Space Marines that only two years have passed for them.

somecallmeJack wrote:Bonjour.

Something is puzzling me. Every chaos space marine from one of the founding legions dates from the Horus Heresy and is over ten thousand years old. Why are there no loyalist marines from that period still alive?

One could put it down to attrition, but if that were the case, there wouldn't be any ancient chaos marines either, and the traitor legions would need to take new recruits, which Im pretty sure they don't do.

Or one could put it down to 'time flows differently in the warp' so chronologically, maybe they're only about a thousand, even though technically they've been living for ten times that. I have a feeling that might be it, but it seems a bit convenient.

thoughts?

First off not all Chaos Marines are from the founding legions many are marines from current chapters that for one reason or another have decided to turn on the Imperium. And In the Eye of Terror times flows far different from that of real space
say for instance that your are in the eye for what to you is 30 years and then return to real space to discover 4,000 years has passed or vice versa. The warp is an enigma that no living being even the emperor in the 40k universe fully understands

OR

what NSDOC says lol

Chaos SMs do recruit new SMs. That's why you have half-breeds like Honsou from Storm Of Iron. He has Imperial Fist gene seed, if I remembered correctly.
Also, Bjorn the Felhanded was from the Heresy Era (he's over 10 millenia old), but he's in a dreadnought. Does he count as a normal Loyalist marine?

The Reason there are no loyalist horus- heresy veterans ( Exluding the Primarchs ) is probably because CSM spend much of their time in the warp, where time lacks or is non existant. So they probably go in the warp, spend a couple thousand years there, and come back. It might fell like only a decade or less has past, but remember: These are two different universes you are dealing with, both incredibly different. Who knows what goes on in the warp?

Chaos Space marines could just be kicking back and taking it easy. Loyalist marines are expected to fight all the time.

I duno about you, but if I was immortal, I'd get off the battlefield ASAP.

somecallmeJack wrote:Bonjour.

Something is puzzling me. Every chaos space marine from one of the founding legions dates from the Horus Heresy and is over ten thousand years old. Why are there no loyalist marines from that period still alive?

One could put it down to attrition, but if that were the case, there wouldn't be any ancient chaos marines either, and the traitor legions would need to take new recruits, which Im pretty sure they don't do.

Or one could put it down to 'time flows differently in the warp' so chronologically, maybe they're only about a thousand, even though technically they've been living for ten times that. I have a feeling that might be it, but it seems a bit convenient.

thoughts?

Read the book 'Soul Hunter'. It's about a company of Night Lords who fled the Siege of Terra, into the Eye of Terror. To them it has been only 100 years, but takes place in the 41st Millennium, 10,000 years after the Siege of Terra.

edit: typo

The SW 13th company is also from the days before the HH they have been in the EoT ever since the Burning of Prospero and apparently won't leave until Russ orders them back or they have finished hunting and killing every last Thousand Son... obviously this is an impossible task since they can be reincarnated as it were.

Time not existing in the warp also puts a damper on the whole 'Chaos Marines have milennia of experience' thing. Chances are they haven't fought a whole lot more than any other Space Marine, it's just their engagements are broken up by return trips to the warp which, while is spreads their fighting over milennia, isn't actually millenia for them.

-Loki- wrote:Time not existing in the warp also puts a damper on the whole 'Chaos Marines have milennia of experience' thing. Chances are they haven't fought a whole lot more than any other Space Marine, it's just their engagements are broken up by return trips to the warp which, while is spreads their fighting over milennia, isn't actually millenia for them.

The Chaos Gods are fickle things, and often send their mortal servants to fight one another for power, prestige, wealth or simply entertainment upon the hundreds of worlds lost in the Warp. In addition to fighting one another, Chaos bands often launch raids into remote corners of the Imperium for slaves, resources, technology and other reasons.

That said, we, as humans, cannot conceive of a place where time has no meaning. A war in the Warp may rage for a century... and, yet, only 20 minutes pass in realspace. Or a thousand years burns by in realspace and... it's been half an hour in the Warp.

Psienesis wrote:

-Loki- wrote:Time not existing in the warp also puts a damper on the whole 'Chaos Marines have milennia of experience' thing. Chances are they haven't fought a whole lot more than any other Space Marine, it's just their engagements are broken up by return trips to the warp which, while is spreads their fighting over milennia, isn't actually millenia for them.

The Chaos Gods are fickle things, and often send their mortal servants to fight one another for power, prestige, wealth or simply entertainment upon the hundreds of worlds lost in the Warp. In addition to fighting one another, Chaos bands often launch raids into remote corners of the Imperium for slaves, resources, technology and other reasons.

That said, we, as humans, cannot conceive of a place where time has no meaning. A war in the Warp may rage for a century... and, yet, only 20 minutes pass in realspace. Or a thousand years burns by in realspace and... it's been half an hour in the Warp.

Or a war in the warp may rage for a year and 4000 years pass in real space.

My point was, because of this, it's impossible to say that Chaos Space Marines are the ageless veterans a lot of people make them out to be. There's just as much chance that the 10 milennia of real time that Marine spent in the warp after the Heresy could have passed as minutes. He's not going to be very experienced. So while everyone says that they should be these ultimate warriors with thousands of years experience is more like to be a hodge podge of experienced and very green Marines, depending on how time affected them in the warp.

-Loki- wrote:

Psienesis wrote:

-Loki- wrote:Time not existing in the warp also puts a damper on the whole 'Chaos Marines have milennia of experience' thing. Chances are they haven't fought a whole lot more than any other Space Marine, it's just their engagements are broken up by return trips to the warp which, while is spreads their fighting over milennia, isn't actually millenia for them.

The Chaos Gods are fickle things, and often send their mortal servants to fight one another for power, prestige, wealth or simply entertainment upon the hundreds of worlds lost in the Warp. In addition to fighting one another, Chaos bands often launch raids into remote corners of the Imperium for slaves, resources, technology and other reasons.

That said, we, as humans, cannot conceive of a place where time has no meaning. A war in the Warp may rage for a century... and, yet, only 20 minutes pass in realspace. Or a thousand years burns by in realspace and... it's been half an hour in the Warp.

Or a war in the warp may rage for a year and 4000 years pass in real space.

My point was, because of this, it's impossible to say that Chaos Space Marines are the ageless veterans a lot of people make them out to be. There's just as much chance that the 10 milennia of real time that Marine spent in the warp after the Heresy could have passed as minutes. He's not going to be very experienced. So while everyone says that they should be these ultimate warriors with thousands of years experience is more like to be a hodge podge of experienced and very green Marines, depending on how time affected them in the warp.

Then again, my take is that they are all battle-hardened experienced warriors because they have fought during the Great Crusade and took part in the siege of Terra, which to me is arguably the largest conflict ever. Those that survive the siege would probably have killed countless loyalist marines in the process of reaching Terra, fighting on Terra and fleeing from Terra. A few centuries (of rea-space time) spent in the warp would mean they are not as experienced as most make them out to be (10000 year old warriors fighting the long war against the Imperium), but they would still be extremely tough and experienced warriors by any standards.

Well the time thing can go both ways. Maybe for some it has only been a few years so they're "green" but for others maybe they have been waging endless wars for a million years in the warp.

Also I like the idea of a marine coming back from the warp thinking he's still fighting in the Horus Heresy despite it being over for 10,000 years.

nsdocholiday wrote:The big thing is the warp distorts time, a few seconds in the warp could be the equivilant of decades or centuries to us.
look at lysander and read his fluff he was stuck in the warp for 1K years as a prisoner and then came out and didnt really age.
the warp will also distort stuff like aging as well i would imagine. also remember that space marines themselves can live ridiculously long lives. i mean dante is extremely old, if i remember right he is the oldest living space marine not in a dreadnought. and then you got bjorn who was around back during the heresy.

This.

Chaos Space marines most certainly recruit. As for age I have a copy of Slaves to darkness, been playing 40k since first edition.

I will give you a few lines from it. Page 243 Realms of Chaos slaves to darkness. The warping of chaos has also worked it's foul changes upon the traitor legions. Where once were space marines - eaten by the rot of chaos but marines nonetheless - there are now only traitor legionaries. Chaos has wrought changes of a subtle and gross nature in the minds and bodies of the legionaries. They are the same beings that revolted against the Imperium ten thousand years ago, made ageless by the seeping power of chaos.

If you like any of the old fluff it's chock full of information about the Traitor Legions. Some of it conflicts with the new fluff, but history is often filled with contradictions.