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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/17 18:40:49
Subject: Mech Eldar - Falcon vs Fire Prism
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Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
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After reading Flavius Infernus' comments in this thread about GK's fortitude, I'm wondering if Falcons are becoming en vogue again:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/369354.page
I've switched to Fire Prisms in 5th ed for my Mech Eldar army, pretty much dropping the idea that Falcons can ever be useful, but Flavius makes a good point that they bring alot of S8 long range shooting, as well as being a transport. However, this loadout requires a holofield I'd imagine, and I've lately been running my Fire Prisms either "naked" or with Spirit Stones, making them quite economical.
What say you dakka!?
Also, in an army where you take a Falcon, I imagine that means you run a single Dire Avenger wave serpent empty?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 03:53:35
Subject: Mech Eldar - Falcon vs Fire Prism
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Plastictrees
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Well, you know where I stand.
Str 6 spam is really cheap & easy for Eldar, so that can handle AR 10-11. Fire dragons are better than anything at handling AR13-14. The gap in standard Eldar capability is right at AR 12, which means dreads, storm ravens, vendettas, and chimera-chassis vehicles--exactly those units that are a huge threat to the AR12 mechanized Eldar army.
You don't want to waste your fire dragons shooting at AR 12 vehicles, and there are usually more of them than you have dragons anyway. But str6 fire just bounces off AR12 (as every Eldar player who laughs at assault cannons knows), especially with the advent of GK fortitude.
IMO, Str9 fire prisms fall into a chasm of inefficiency as an anti-tank weapon. You don't want to waste that expensive str9 shot on an AR 12 vehicle. AR 12 vehicles also usually come in much larger numbers than AR13-14 vehicles, so you can never bring enough prisms to handle them all. But even against the AR13+ vehicle, you're still looking on a 4+ or 5+ on the single shot to do any damage. Half your shots scatter off, and the other half or more fail to do anything--and that's before cover saves. Typically you're looking at only a 25-12% success rate on prism shots. The prism cannon doesn't have a strong enough shot to kill a heavy tank as surely as fire dragons, and doesn't have enough shots to kill AR12 tanks as surely as an EML falcon.
As every Eldar player knows, multi-shot str7-8 weapons are the most effective anti-tank counter to AR12 vehicles. Eldar don't have any Str7 weapons. So that leaves the str8 weapons, EML and pulse laser, which are only available on very limited platforms:
120/shot on a wave serpent (plus the 60+ point buy-in for the serpent for a minimum real cost of 180/shot, although with twin-linking it works out to be closer to 120 with real hit potential)
110/shot on a wraithlord (@BS4, so closer to 90)
100/shot in a guardian defender squad
74/shot on a 3-model Reaper unit with fast shot exarch (with BS5, so actually pretty efficient, but no survivability and also the only unit in this list that can't move & shoot)
65 /shot on a vyper
45/shot on a Falcon with no other upgrades
35/shot on a war walker
So a falcon with its free pulse laser is comparable with the cheapest firepower units in the codex--vypers and war walkers. When you consider the comparative survivability of the falcon and the opportunity cost of giving up the force org slots and all the str6 spam you get much more efficiently on vypers and/or wwalkers, it seems to me IMHO that the falcon is the best choice for long-range str8 shooting.
I theorize that you could do it without holofields. My experience so far is that the falcons take very little enemy fire, and are extremely survivable at these ranges. But I haven't been able to let go of my holofields yet.
This is not to say that fire prisms aren't effective anti-troop units. I hear that they are. We're talking pure anti-tank numbers here.
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"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 04:11:55
Subject: Mech Eldar - Falcon vs Fire Prism
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Longtime Dakkanaut
New Zealand
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whitedragon wrote:After reading Flavius Infernus' comments in this thread about GK's fortitude, I'm wondering if Falcons are becoming en vogue again:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/369354.page
I've switched to Fire Prisms in 5th ed for my Mech Eldar army, pretty much dropping the idea that Falcons can ever be useful, but Flavius makes a good point that they bring alot of S8 long range shooting, as well as being a transport. However, this loadout requires a holofield I'd imagine, and I've lately been running my Fire Prisms either "naked" or with Spirit Stones, making them quite economical.
What say you dakka!?
Also, in an army where you take a Falcon, I imagine that means you run a single Dire Avenger wave serpent empty?
Falcons definitely have a place in Mech Eldar armies, I've even started to consider running them without Holos just to keep them cheap which I think will work in Vyper heavy lists where they are going to get cover most of the time. The main limitation is that so many people are locked in to taking 2 Prisms (for the linked shot options and redundancy), which means at best you get 1 Falcon. Contrary to popular belief a single Prism works fine though, the linked shot doesn't get used that much. You can run Falcon as S8 gunboats with EML or S6 torrent of fire platforms with Scatter Laser + underslung Cannon.
Dire Avengers make Holofield Falcons one of the best backfield objective holders in the game and I would never run anything else in them. You have no reason or requirement to take a Serpent for the Avengers though (unless you are using them for transporting Harlies or something like that), just take them without a transport and start them in the Falcon otherwise you just waste points.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 13:42:44
Subject: Mech Eldar - Falcon vs Fire Prism
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Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
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Excellent explanation Flav, that gives me some things to think about and explains your thought process so I see where you are coming from.
Powerguy, you're exactly right, I don't know why but in my Mech Eldar army I always just automatically include Wave Serpents for my DA. That shaves some points if they ride in the falcon.
Now the real question is, 2 Falcons, or 1 Prism 1 Falcon.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 13:52:48
Subject: Mech Eldar - Falcon vs Fire Prism
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Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator
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My mech Eldar army goes out without Prisms and Falcons these days.
Prisms are too unreliable even when twin linked and Falcons are too expensive for what they can achieve.
I stay with Serpents and War Walkers.
Fortitude? So you think the GK psykers can rely on their powers when they face the runes of warding.
They will roll 10.5 on average with 3 dices. These guys generally have Ld 9 and so will hardly bring their casts through.
I really don't care.
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Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a " " I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 16:20:32
Subject: Mech Eldar - Falcon vs Fire Prism
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Fixture of Dakka
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Flavius Infernus wrote:When you consider the comparative survivability of the falcon and the opportunity cost of giving up the force org slots and all the str6 spam you get much more efficiently on vypers and/or wwalkers, it seems to me IMHO that the falcon is the best choice for long-range str8 shooting.
War Walkers and Falcons are in the same slot.
Additionally, what are you putting in the rest of your army that makes spamming Falcons a viable idea?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/18 16:41:35
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 17:00:15
Subject: Mech Eldar - Falcon vs Fire Prism
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Agile Revenant Titan
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Great view regarding Fire Prism and Falcon for anti tank duty. I tend to run one of each with Holofields/Spirit Stones, but they rarely do a whole lot for me. Too many times, they end up Shaken, so I don't get much shooting from them. However, they make great objective contesters and due absorb a lot of firepower.
To further muddy the waters, based on Flavius points per S8 shot, what do folks think about running a squadron of 3 Warwalkers all with EMLs? I believe there is merit in this build, especially when you factor Autarchs and Outflanking.
Thoughts?
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No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 18:33:57
Subject: Mech Eldar - Falcon vs Fire Prism
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Foolproof Falcon Pilot
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I know this topis is about Prism vs Falcon, but I would like to thow out another option.
I have gone to a Hybrid list, partially out of fluff, and partially out of resiliency.
I used to run an old ulthwe list, so I own TONS of guardians...TONS. I also have my army painted black and like to stick to some fluff in my army. So, I run guardian defender squads in a WS.. Now, I know this sounds stupid on the surface; however there is an advantage to this...it opens up WLs for use as heavy support firepower.
This is how I run them: The guardians go into a EML WS, with an Embolden Warlock, placed on the lowest flight stand. The EML/BL equipped WL stays right behind the WS. This means that the WL never has to roll for Wraithsight, and due to the hieght of the WS can claim a 4+ cover save.
In the end, I end up with a WL that has 2 BS4 shots, a 4+ cover save, and thanks to being a MC, it cannot be stunned or shaken. In addition, I have the TL EML on the WS. This combination makes for perfect backfield objective holders/firbase. I have more bodies that DAs,in case by WS gets popped, plus I have embolden to keep them from running. Also, I still have a WL for counter assault duties if anything gets close. I run 2 of these combinations, which still allows for plenty of points to go forward as DAs/Dragons in serpents.
I know that this isn't traditional Mechdar; however, it does open up another option for Heavies in a Mech list, as long as you are willing to play with Guardians and their Warlock.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/18 18:38:48
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/18 20:11:13
Subject: Mech Eldar - Falcon vs Fire Prism
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Plastictrees
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DarknessEternal wrote:Flavius Infernus wrote:When you consider the comparative survivability of the falcon and the opportunity cost of giving up the force org slots and all the str6 spam you get much more efficiently on vypers and/or wwalkers, it seems to me IMHO that the falcon is the best choice for long-range str8 shooting.
War Walkers and Falcons are in the same slot.
Additionally, what are you putting in the rest of your army that makes spamming Falcons a viable idea?
I've been meaning to cook up a profile, but here are a couple of lists that I took to local RTTs at 2K points and blew through undefeated for back-to-back first place wins:
Autarch with fusion gun, chainsword (extra points)
Doomseer with runes of warding
3X5 fire dragons in wave serpents with scatterlaser, shuriken cannon
3X5 dire avengers in wave serpents with scatterlaser, shuriken cannon
1 squadron of 3 vypers with scatterlaser, shuriken cannon
2X2 warwalker squadron with dual scatterlaser
1 falcon with EML, holofield
I liked the way the falcon performed so well in that army, that I tweaked another one in for the second tournament:
Autarch with fusion gun, chainsword
Doomseer with runes of warding
3X5 fire dragons in wave serpents with scatterlaser, shuriken cannon
3X5 dire avengers in wave serpents with scatterlaser, shuriken cannon
1 squadron of 2 vypers with scatterlaser, shuriken cannon
1 squadron of 2 warwalkers with dual scatterlaser
2 falcons with EML, holofield
I routinely put dire avengers in the falcons and leave their serpents empty, then use the empty serpents as gunboats to run interference, provide cover saves for other tanks, interdict movement. There's still a lot of efficiency to be had from this list, though, as soon as I put together more vypers.
EML war walkers sound to me like a viable alternative for even more Str8 fire, but I can't say from personal experience since I haven't tried them yet. I know from using scatterlaser wwalkers that people love to assault them, and they die pretty easily, even in cover.
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"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/19 23:24:05
Subject: Mech Eldar - Falcon vs Fire Prism
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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Hmmm... Cool. I am wondering, what are the best units to get scatter lasers in? Falcon, guardians, vyper, wave serpents or what?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/19 23:36:03
Subject: Mech Eldar - Falcon vs Fire Prism
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Charing Cold One Knight
Lafayette, IN
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Niiai wrote:Hmmm... Cool. I am wondering, what are the best units to get scatter lasers in? Falcon, guardians, vyper, wave serpents or what?
Scatter lasers on war walkers are the usual.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/21 23:41:22
Subject: Mech Eldar - Falcon vs Fire Prism
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Numberless Necron Warrior
denmark
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I sometimes like to put a seer council inside of my falcon. Then instead of just sitting still and hugging cover/objective i use it as my counter attack hammer. Move the tank in position just before my enemy hits my lines, when he does the seer council jumbs out and flame his ass, chrage and shtuff, while the falcon keeps blasting away with all it got. I took out an entire wych squad and their transport this way. Later in the game the same combo took down the arcon and his enitre incubi retinue (falcon) after the serpents had kissed his raider, while i destroyed a crones with mindwar all at the same time. All in all i think it's a great tank that you definitely get your points worth out of if you ask me.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/21 23:41:53
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/22 01:15:43
Subject: Mech Eldar - Falcon vs Fire Prism
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Longtime Dakkanaut
New Zealand
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Except doing that puts the Falcon into melta range, which almost completely negates the bonus Holofields give you. For anything which will be getting up close a Serpent is a better choice, even more so in this case because a 6 man assault unit doesn't really threaten much. Thats ignoring the fact that assaulting from Serpents is tricky at the best of times.
@ Niiai. War Walkers are the most common place to get massed Scatter Lasers because it where you get the most volume. They also work on Falcons, you lose a big chunk of shooting compared to the Walkers, but it will stick around for much longer and protect a scoring unit as well. They are also tied with the EML as the best weapon for a Serpent (and as your going to end up with Serpents anyway its an easy way to get more S6 shooting) and are also the weapon of choice for Vypers as it keeps them outside of the 24" small arms range.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/22 02:10:22
Subject: Re:Mech Eldar - Falcon vs Fire Prism
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Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade
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The biggest thing I think about comparing the two for anti tank, is also their accuracy.
Yes, the blast from the prism does scatter a lot (Unless your dice love you). But what no one here seems to have mentioned, is the fact that the Falcon is BS3.
Take that into consideration with your approach. You can easily field a single farseer to guide a falcon, but more than that, and you lose out on your autarch and the tactical advantage he brings to the table for mech eldar.
Without the farseer to guide the falcon, half of your shots are going to miss. Against AV 12, you will need a 4+ to glance with one of your three shots. That means one shot a turn is actually going to do anything against that AV12 unit. For 240 points (standard layout + avengers) that is just... terrible. Granted, factor in guide and your odds improve (obviously).
The prism, not being scoring, does about the same amount of good for the build. You have a 1 in 3 chance of hitting dead on with the scatter die, then the chances of it scattering into the target further, then the odds of it not scattering after reducing distance by BS4. Only further increasing the odds should you link the shots together. But as we are factoring the falcon without a farseer we will say that you are not linking shots.
I don't have the mathhammer skills to work that one out without a bit of looking things up, so we'll skip that part for the sake of time. As for penetration, obviously 3+ is better than a 4+ but it comes back to the need to have that mathhammer done for the to hit ratio of a fire prism.
Also, the fire prisms add more versatility to the army than a falcon. True, the falcon can score, which the prism can not, but the Prism can also be left to deal with hordes, where the falcon is next to useless in that circumstance. On the flip side, the falcon is better against MCs due to shear RoF. The prism, also has the option of doing the link, giving it a TL S10 AP 1 weapon with a 60" range.
Now, I personally use two prisms, and a single falcon in my mech line up, with a farseer in the falcon, and my two prisms soaking fire if nothing else (and when they're not doing that, my scatter die loves to watch things explode...).
Personally, I would say it comes down to your own experience, as both tanks are pretty interchangable.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/22 11:19:12
Subject: Re:Mech Eldar - Falcon vs Fire Prism
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Plastictrees
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Amanax wrote:
Without the farseer to guide the falcon, half of your shots are going to miss. Against AV 12, you will need a 4+ to glance with one of your three shots. That means one shot a turn is actually going to do anything against that AV12 unit. For 240 points (standard layout + avengers) that is just... terrible.
I think you've tweaked up the cost of the falcon here unfairly--actually a falcon costs exactly the same as a fire prism before any upgrades, and the EML is 20 points more--and you dont *have* to take any additional upgrades. Holofields and dire avengers don't affect a falcon's antitank fire ability, so including them in the cost shouldn't factor into the comparison. You can tool up a fire prism with holofields and other stuff too, but it doesn't make them any better at anti-tank.
But the main point here is my point too. On a basic falcon with just an EML, " one shot a turn is actually going to do anything against that AV12 unit." That one reliable shot that actually does something every turn is exactly what I want.
On a fire prism, even though it's BS4 and depending on the target, slightly less than half your shots will scatter off and do nothing (based on analyses I've read about on YTTH of how frequently templates scatter off of vehicles).
(Optional math nerd part: Furthermore, large number theory says that because you have three shots rather than one, your frequency of the actual value coming out closer to the expected value is going to be greater with an EML falcon than it is with a prism.)
I'd rather have that one reliable damaging hit every single turn than a shot that's only having an effect 3 or 4 turns out of a 6-turn game for 20 points less.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/05/22 11:23:31
"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/23 08:47:26
Subject: Re:Mech Eldar - Falcon vs Fire Prism
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Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade
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Flavius Infernus wrote:Amanax wrote:
Without the farseer to guide the falcon, half of your shots are going to miss. Against AV 12, you will need a 4+ to glance with one of your three shots. That means one shot a turn is actually going to do anything against that AV12 unit. For 240 points (standard layout + avengers) that is just... terrible.
I think you've tweaked up the cost of the falcon here unfairly--actually a falcon costs exactly the same as a fire prism before any upgrades, and the EML is 20 points more--and you dont *have* to take any additional upgrades. Holofields and dire avengers don't affect a falcon's antitank fire ability, so including them in the cost shouldn't factor into the comparison. You can tool up a fire prism with holofields and other stuff too, but it doesn't make them any better at anti-tank.
But the main point here is my point too. On a basic falcon with just an EML, " one shot a turn is actually going to do anything against that AV12 unit." That one reliable shot that actually does something every turn is exactly what I want.
On a fire prism, even though it's BS4 and depending on the target, slightly less than half your shots will scatter off and do nothing (based on analyses I've read about on YTTH of how frequently templates scatter off of vehicles).
(Optional math nerd part: Furthermore, large number theory says that because you have three shots rather than one, your frequency of the actual value coming out closer to the expected value is going to be greater with an EML falcon than it is with a prism.)
I'd rather have that one reliable damaging hit every single turn than a shot that's only having an effect 3 or 4 turns out of a 6-turn game for 20 points less.
No tweaked numbers there. I said standard layout. That means Falcon w/ EML, holofields, spirit stones. That's 180 points for the tank right there, plus another 60 points for the five avengers to sit inside and let it score. A standard layout prism (Prism w/ holo fields and possibly spirit stones) is a grand total of 150 points (160 with stones). Do you NEED those upgrades on the falcon? No. However, without Holo fields, and without spirit stones you still come out to 195. There, you have your predictable single S8 shot a turn, but at what cost? You have traded in your survivability on a tank that is still more expensive for an extra shot, maybe two. Those shots could well be game changing, yes. But what if your S8 gun boat is actually picked out a a target? Lets face it, it's more expensive and it is now a lot more vulnerable than the wave serpents that will be zipping around the field. On top of it's now increased vulnerability, it has troops in it. This tank is a high priority target that WILL be shot at. Removing it's survivability to cut costs to gain that extra shot or two is absolutely suicidal. The tank will be dead before it can make up those extra shots. For cheaper, you can take the prism and still keep that survivability and realistically put out the same number of scoring shots on the target.
Another reason I am in the boat of 2x prism 1x falcon. You are much better off covering your bases than trying to cut corners with the Eldar. If you do, you'll pay for it, and the Eldar are not a forgiving army.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/23 13:05:03
Subject: Mech Eldar - Falcon vs Fire Prism
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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wuestenfux wrote:Fortitude? So you think the GK psykers can rely on their powers when they face the runes of warding.
They will roll 10.5 on average with 3 dices. These guys generally have Ld 9 and so will hardly bring their casts through.
I really don't care.
GK Vehicles are Ld10. Point still stands though.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/23 14:45:15
Subject: Mech Eldar - Falcon vs Fire Prism
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Beaver Dam, WI
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Assume a falcon with EML and Pulse Laser. If you move 6" that is 1.5 S8 hits per turn. Versus a fire prism with approximately .67 S9 Hits. The advantage of the Falcon is it can - for 60 points - carry a troop choice that can claim an objective. The problem of war walkers is probably the biggest issue as this works against the heavy slot and provides your fire power. So look at the falcon and it provides a ranged threat and an ability to control an objective. This is the one bonus for taking a falcon. So now the question is, do you gain a benefit for fielding 2 or 3 falcons versus 1 falcon and 2 prisms or 2 squadrons of 3 walkers. Vypers are slightly less efficient than walkers but could be used due to the cover available with multiple falcons and serpents. So you are left with the FOC and the charts as an issue.
3 x falcon w EML + Dire Avenger @600 pts
2 x 3 Vypers with SL & Shuricannon @ 400 pts
Now you are left with -assuming 1850 around 800 points to
select 1 or 2 HQs and other choices in serpents.
If you went with 2 prisms + falcon you have about 150 points extra to play with. So this is your issue: can you get by with 800 pts for HQ and others or do you feel more comfortable with 950? Add to that a falcon truly benefits from a guiding farseer so it makes for a tough choice. Assume you go with two serpents w 5 firedragons and we have 400 points used up, assume you go with Eldrad and you have 200 more points used up. So you have 200 points to play with for having 9 S8 shots in your army. That probably converts to a 3rd DA squad in a wave serpent.
So your choice is:
3 falcons, eldrad, 3 wave serpents, 20 DA, 10 fire dragons and 6 vypers
or
1 falcon, 2 fire prisms, eldrad, 4 wave serpents, 15 DA, 10 fire dragons and 6 vypers.
Classic choice of fire power versus troop choices.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/05/23 18:55:46
Subject: Re:Mech Eldar - Falcon vs Fire Prism
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Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
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Amanax wrote:
No tweaked numbers there. I said standard layout. That means Falcon w/ EML, holofields, spirit stones. That's 180 points for the tank right there, plus another 60 points for the five avengers to sit inside and let it score. A standard layout prism (Prism w/ holo fields and possibly spirit stones) is a grand total of 150 points (160 with stones).
You can't really count the 60 points for the Dire Avengers, because they are going to be in your army regardless of if you take a Falcon or Fire Prism. One way, they are protected and make your HS choice scoring, the other way they don't interact with your HS choice at all. However, if you are going to be staying at max range firing, it's a great way to also keep a Troops choice safe, which you can't do with the Fire Prism.
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