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High elves have a rule that allows them to cast with Irresistable Force on any roll of doubles except double one. This was written back before Irresistable Force and Miscast were tied together.

We decided on a small tweak to this rule to tie it with 8th editions combination of the two.

On any roll of doubles (except double 6) the spell is cast with Irresistable force. The Caster must then make a toughness check. If the check is failed, the player must roll on the miscast table as normal.

First off, it's not a rule so much as it is a magical item. Second, the name you're looking for is Book of Hoeth.

Now let's get to it..... No...I am not taking a toughness test on a t3 model to use an item I used a lot of points for.

It's a 100 point item which can be destroyed in various different ways. Not to mention that the archmage you put it on is screwed as he has no saves and isn't immune to anything.

I'll concede that the book of Hoeth is a bit OP, but keep in mind the previous mention of vulnerability and the fact that you must meet the casting value before the doubles even come into play. Those two draw backs alone bring the book back in line.

Are you forcing Teclis to do the same? So now I have to take a toughness test on a t2 model?

How does a non-high elf destroy an arcane item?
With the new must step up rules for heroes in units (thank you FAQ), the only really issue I have is:
Book + folding fortress + Banner of the World Dragon.

Now you've got a wizard that will never see combat, and is immune to magic; and his whole unit is stubborn.

-Matt

Kill the tower is the answer to the folding fortress.

What I meant with the 100 point item getting destroyed was not only the item, but the mage can be killed. It's not like something that is a permanent fixture on the battlefield.

And show me a viable list with both BoH and FFF. It would have to be a 2500+ point game. At 2500, you'll have a very naked prince and naked Amage taking up at least 575 points. What are you going to do, sit there with 500 spearelves in said fortress for six turns while I shoot at it with artillery before wiping it out in CC? You're talking about a pretty extreme list that is pretty silly imho.

elvennoob wrote:First off, it's not a rule so much as it is a magical item. Second, the name you're looking for is Book of Hoeth.

Now let's get to it..... No...I am not taking a toughness test on a t3 model to use an item I used a lot of points for.

It's a 100 point item which can be destroyed in various different ways. Not to mention that the archmage you put it on is screwed as he has no saves and isn't immune to anything.

I'll concede that the book of Hoeth is a bit OP, but keep in mind the previous mention of vulnerability and the fact that you must meet the casting value before the doubles even come into play. Those two draw backs alone bring the book back in line.

Are you forcing Teclis to do the same? So now I have to take a toughness test on a t2 model?

First, you do NOT have to make a toughness test to use the item.

Second, under its original rules, it did not rule out miscast + IF, it simply made IF much more available. It is still possible, depending on the # of dice rolled to roll both IF an Miscast at the same time.

This rule change brings back the original intent of the rule, more IF, not more IF + protection from miscast.

The toughness test simply checks to see if miscast happens as well, its a 50/50 chance.

Sorry, apparently I am not good with words when typing on the fly.

First things first, rereading my first post I sound a bit snarky on that first part, and I wasn't trying to be so my apologies if I did. And I meant not to actually use it, but have the use of it.... as in... I have to take a toughness test to see if I could lift the pages of the book and cast IF or if my arms give way and I just cast with normal force.

I'll still say this though - I am not going to make extra rules up to use an item that can be countered, imho, easily. If you want to play that way and your friends are ok with it, then go with. To me though, it sounds silly. I'd rather see you all just take it out all together.

elvennoob wrote:Sorry, apparently I am not good with words when typing on the fly.

First things first, rereading my first post I sound a bit snarky on that first part, and I wasn't trying to be so my apologies if I did. And I meant not to actually use it, but have the use of it.... as in... I have to take a toughness test to see if I could lift the pages of the book and cast IF or if my arms give way and I just cast with normal force.

I'll still say this though - I am not going to make extra rules up to use an item that can be countered, imho, easily. If you want to play that way and your friends are ok with it, then go with. To me though, it sounds silly. I'd rather see you all just take it out all together.

Again though. All the toughness test does is determine whether or not a miscast occurs.

I.e. Lets say you have the book and roll 4 dice, 1,3,5,5. The spell WILL go off and it will go off with Irresitable force. Now you make a Toughness Test that determines whether or not you ALSO miscast. If you pass (50% chance) then no miscast happens, if you don't pass then you STILL get the spell off with Irresistable force, but you also roll on the miscast table, just as if you had rolled double sixes.

elvennoob wrote:Kill the tower is the answer to the folding fortress.

What I meant with the 100 point item getting destroyed was not only the item, but the mage can be killed. It's not like something that is a permanent fixture on the battlefield.

And show me a viable list with both BoH and FFF. It would have to be a 2500+ point game. At 2500, you'll have a very naked prince and naked Amage taking up at least 575 points. What are you going to do, sit there with 500 spearelves in said fortress for six turns while I shoot at it with artillery before wiping it out in CC? You're talking about a pretty extreme list that is pretty silly imho.

When I've faced it, the building is packed with swordmasters (usually about 40), with the banner that gives them flaming attacks.
Charge the tower, and you face 20 S5 attacks that re-roll to hit and wound. If by some twist of fate you win combat, the elves are stubborn with Ld10 with a re-roll.
The fact that the wizard and lord have no protection doesn't matter, because they choose not to fight.
How do you kill the tower? Skaven can with a ring on the bell and with a spell, but outside of that, building cannot be destroyed.

Yeah, it's a 1200 sink in a 2500 point game, but it's VP denial. It's next to impossible to earn any points out of those 1200 in the tower, while they are very capable of picking up points.

-Matt

Why do they get to re-roll to hit and wound with flaming? I thought only the attacker, if they had flaming, got to re-roll to wound in a building combat? (I don't have my BRB on me).

With regards to the book of hoeth, the item it's self isn't particularly op. It's good for a 100 pt item. The item still miscasts on a regular IF and this makes the high mage wielding it quite the offensive caster. Until he's swiftly killed for being toughness 3 with no saves to speak of unless he's mounted.

That said Tecilis is monstrously unbalanced. Not only does he effectively not miscast (you'd need to roll two reg IF for the miscast to stick) but he can then cast most of his magic unopposed and the ruin the enemy magic phase with drain magic (likely with no way to be dealt with).

Teclis still does suffer from elfy caster fragility and as far as I can tell is toughness 2 with no saves of any kind (meaning Teclis could be bowled over by a gang of annoyed gnoblars) which balances him a little if the controlling player is silly enough to let Teclis be put in a situation where he'll be hit.

My problem is that on the tournament level Teclis is a game winning power-house. When well used he can on his own win games. I don't think you'll see him much in friendly games , but in tournaments of 2000pts and more he'll dominate right up to the 4000pt barrier. All I feel Teclis needs is to cost at least 26pts more (although I feel he's worth more like 550-600pts to put him on par with Kroak who is supposed to be op and isn't compared with Teclis (even though Deliverance of Itza is hilarious)) to put him over the 500pt lord limit and effectively stopping the top ten or so tourny lists all being high elf Teclis lists.

They'll just be high elf lists instead.

If you really wish to hobble the book of Hoeth with the toughness test you'd have to make the cost a little cheaper, more like 80pts. As with elf toughness of 3 half of most of the spells cast by the wizard will result in miscast and in all likely hood will be dead after 3-6 spells are cast due to prolific IF spam and miscasts 50% of the time.

Balance High Elves:
Remove Teclis
Allow ASF Great weapons to strike at initiative, or still have ASF but with no rerolls, but to have ASF and rerolls is crazy.

Other than that they're just fine. Could maybe use a free range griffon monster, but otherwise are just peachy.

Allow ASF Great weapons to strike at initiative, or still have ASF but with no rerolls, but to have ASF and rerolls is crazy.

Other than that they're just fine. Could maybe use a free range griffon monster, but otherwise are just peachy

This wouldn't balance HE, but rather it would severly weaken the army. As is, High Elves have some of the most costly troops in the game. Only a few other armies have more expensive troops, and usually those troops are much more survivable than what the HE have to offer.

Their only "defense" is their offense. Removing any sort of offensive power from the HE army would need to be balanced out by providing them with some kind of defensive capabilities. As is, the enemy will be steadfast almost all of the time. The only way to counteract that is by outkilling them. High Elves WILL die in combat. T3 army wide, with a 5+ armor or 4+ ward save being the best they have access to (infantry wise). The changes to the WS chart made it easier to hit, so even low WS troops can wipe out a High Elf army in combat if they have the numbers (which they should compared to the points cost).

High Elves in 7th had some variety in their competitive lists. High Elves in 8th have 1 competitive list, which performs exceptionally well due to magic, and a few gimmicky lists. The watchtower list is a gimmick, and even then, only useful against non-warmachine armies. Try playing a game against HE where they don't use Teclis or a BoH and see how you do. I'm willing to bet you steamroll them.

What I hope to see in the new book (whenever that is) is the complete removal of ASF. This would allow GW more room to change up the army a bit, give them a bit more survivability. As much as I loved the current incarnation of HE (in 7th) they need to take it back to the drawing board to make it "balanced" for 8th.

**Edit**
Just to be clear, I love 8th far more than 7th. HE had more options in 7th which was good. Overall 8th is a better system IMHO and I wouldn't mind seeing a little variety brought back to the HE army for 8th.

Lehnsherr wrote:

Allow ASF Great weapons to strike at initiative, or still have ASF but with no rerolls, but to have ASF and rerolls is crazy.

Other than that they're just fine. Could maybe use a free range griffon monster, but otherwise are just peachy

This wouldn't balance HE, but rather it would severly weaken the army. As is, High Elves have some of the most costly troops in the game. Only a few other armies have more expensive troops, and usually those troops are much more survivable than what the HE have to offer.
Their only "defense" is their offense. Removing any sort of offensive power from the HE army would need to be balanced out by providing them with some kind of defensive capabilities. As is, the enemy will be steadfast almost all of the time. The only way to counteract that is by outkilling them. High Elves WILL die in combat. T3 army wide, with a 5+ armor or 4+ ward save being the best they have access to (infantry wise). The changes to the WS chart made it easier to hit, so even low WS troops can wipe out a High Elf army in combat if they have the numbers (which they should compared to the points cost).

This is somewhat true. The only method high elves have to deal with hordes is kill them with magic, or grind through them. They lack any sort of template ranged weapon, or monster with some sort of belly-flopping kill all ability.

I'd like to see the ASF changed, but I'd also like to see swordmasters go back to not having great weapons (to put some distance between them and white lions) and have them pick up some sort of template missile. Even a fire thrower with a little more range, or some mobility.
I'm not surprised to always face a very magic heavy list in an army where "cheap" is at least 9 points. They just can't compete with 2-4 point infantry without the nuke spells to thin them down.

-Matt

To be fair, Swordmasters can cut through goblins, Skavenslaves, and gnoblars, point-for-point, twice as fast as their opponent can kill them. Now, that becomes less impressive when you consider the fact that, point-for-point, they're outnumbered more than 2:1, but considering that elite infantry isn't supposed to be able to chop through waves of fodder in 8th, I'd say they're doing a pretty damn good job.

I like the idea of High Elves being "glass cannons", but I also think they should have s'more variety. Especially since the true offensive masters of Warhammer are Dark Elves. Or are supposed to be, anyway.

Warpsolution wrote:To be fair, Swordmasters can cut through goblins, Skavenslaves, and gnoblars, point-for-point, twice as fast as their opponent can kill them. Now, that becomes less impressive when you consider the fact that, point-for-point, they're outnumbered more than 2:1, but considering that elite infantry isn't supposed to be able to chop through waves of fodder in 8th, I'd say they're doing a pretty damn good job.

I like the idea of High Elves being "glass cannons", but I also think they should have s'more variety. Especially since the true offensive masters of Warhammer are Dark Elves. Or are supposed to be, anyway.

Swordmasters do cut through fodder; but if said fodder has nets and a parry, it's very possible that the swordmasters simply won't have enough turns in the game to kill enough to break them.
-Matt

...right. But, as I said: charging elite infantry head-on into tar pits isn't supposed to be tactically advisable. I mean, if it was, who would take blocks of gobbos?
Swordmasters, though, come pretty close to being able to do the job anyway.

Warpsolution wrote:...right. But, as I said: charging elite infantry head-on into tar pits isn't supposed to be tactically advisable. I mean, if it was, who would take blocks of gobbos?
Swordmasters, though, come pretty close to being able to do the job anyway.

The problem is, high elves don't have a good answer for big blocks of gobbos, other than
1) nuking with magic
2) hoping they fail a panic test

Option one just makes the gobbo general happy.
Option two is just counting on your opponent to blow rolls.

IMO, a real shooting option to thin down mobs is needed. Otherwise it's all magic nuking. It's not like the armies that run mobs don't have counters to deal with shooting/warmachines.

-Matt

Warpsolution wrote:...right. But, as I said: charging elite infantry head-on into tar pits isn't supposed to be tactically advisable.

The BRB even says at one of its side blurbs you're supposed to tie up elites with fodder. Though everyone really knew it, it's a purposeful game mechanic.

DukeRustfield wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:...right. But, as I said: charging elite infantry head-on into tar pits isn't supposed to be tactically advisable.

The BRB even says at one of its side blurbs you're supposed to tie up elites with fodder. Though everyone really knew it, it's a purposeful game mechanic.

But when you have an army with nothing but elites, you don't have an option. The fodder runs at you, you either engage it, or it engages you.

-Matt

You guys have been hitting the nail on the head with the last few posts.

Elites are supposed to be tied up by big blocks and thats a good thing. As Matt pointed out, HE only have 1 way to deal with big blocks, and that is through magic.

The "problem" with magic is that it tends to either win big or lose big. The army itself is not imbalanced, but the outcome of games is, and thats what we tend to focus on. If I am lucky with magic, I will usually stomp my opponent. If I am unlucky with magic, I will usually lose. The byproduct of the new magic system is to either win big or lose big with a magic heavy army. For the record, the HE army (in fluff) is supposed to excel in the magic phase. A change I would like to see is a slight increase in Teclis' points, so that he may not be used in 2k games. At 2k he is slightly OP, at 3k the rest of the army issues balance out the game.

Another issue with Swordmasters is how easily they die to ranged weapons. Template weapons, basic shooting, almost any attack will kill a swordmaster if they do not have protective magic on them. T3 5+ save, and thats it. Take even the worst archers, factor in 2 rounds of shooting, and see how many Swordmasters you killed. Warmachines are even worse as they tend to eat Swordmasters for breakfast. Stone throwers scare the crap out of a HE army.

A swordmaster is every bit as easy to shoot to death as a goblin.
Now high elves are looking at using magic to both protect their own troops, and deal with opponents throw away hordes.

Dark elves have a similar issue, but have superior scouts, cheap flying units for screens, and superior fast cav; in effect, tools to deal with the shooting issue. They've also got a 30% discount on most troops (in both price and quality). This makes the glasscannon a uniquely high elf problem.

-Matt

A swordmaster is every bit as easy to shoot to death as a goblin.

True, but a goblin is 3 points, a swordmaster is 15. You understand what I was getting at though. Drop a stone thrower on a unit of goblins and you killed as many points as 2-3 Swordmasters. Drop a stone thrower on a unit of Swordmasters and you killed as many points as an entire unit of goblins (maybe a little bit of an exaggeration, but its close). That is the tradeoff of course of being elite vs a throwaway troop. As you already said in this thread, cheap for High Elves is 9 points.

Dark elves have a similar issue, but have superior scouts, cheap flying units for screens, and superior fast cav; in effect, tools to deal with the shooting issue. They've also got a 30% discount on most troops (in both price and quality). This makes the glasscannon a uniquely high elf problem

A man who understands the High Elf problem greater than most. The only thing HE really have going for them is a powerful magic phase. This is why High Elves rely so heavily on magic, and why when magic works, opponents hate playing them.

**Edit**

Also I haven't seen it pointed out in the thread, but from the sounds of it, the OP was playing it right anyway. I always still point out the rule for Teclis and the BoH; They only get IF if they get a double AND have a successful casting roll. Its not just a double that gives them IF.

Lehnsherr wrote:
The only thing HE really have going for them is a powerful magic phase. This is why High Elves rely so heavily on magic, and why when magic works, opponents hate playing them.

Bolded, italicized, and underlined for effect. People only remember when they were roflstomped by HE magic. They don't remember when they one shotted Teclis with a cannon ball. Or shot loads of SM to death before they even reached combat. Or that they are wounding on 4+ standard and 3+ or 2+ most of the time. People only want to focus on the part they don't like.

And all of this is different for DE how? I mean, honestly, how is it different? At least HE have better elites (and FAR more survivable ones) than DE do, which makes DE even bigger glass cannons than HE. Oooh! DE have the Hydra! Yeah, I'm unconvinced that is the balancing factor that puts DE over the top somehow. I'm not talking about an across the board nerf on ASF, I'm just saying that HE have no reason to continue to have ASF above and beyond what the rules say. They have multiple units with GW, and they all have ASF. Having a higher initiative than all but other elves' elite units (elite, mind you) in their elites already guarantees that they are going first. Getting rerolls on those same units gets rediculous. Surely they do more damage than Blackguards do already.

I'm fine with BoH, it's a 100pt magic item. But Teclis is nuts. An elf army SHOULD require a little more finesse, IMO. It shouldn't just be a "lolrofflestomp" army of IWIN. The only people I've seen have issues running HE are the ones who don't know how to pick their battles or apply force to the proper locations. (or got hit by a Savage Orc Biggun Horde. Cuz... yeesh. Whatre ya gonna do against THAT?)

If you are having problems with steadfast goblins, you have much bigger problems. Like, being unable to kill the BSB, which is the obvious core target in 8th ed. a LD of 5 on steadfast isn't all that great. At all.

At least HE have better elites (and FAR more survivable ones)

I assume you mean the Phoenix Guard here. They are the only survivable High Elf unit. They also happen to be the bunker for your own BSB and Archmage. Not exactly sure you'd want this unit to be getting into combat. No other HE unit should be said to be "survivable". White Lions have a 3+ save to shooting, 5+ in close combat, and T 3. Swordmasters are a 5+ with T 3. They are one of the most killable units in the game, and at 15 points per, a big chunk of your total army cost that will drop very easily.

As far as DE vs HE, I think what Matt was getting at was not only the Hydra, but Shades, Repeater Crossbow men, and general army choices that allow for compensation of the toughness issue. You can even look at witches being supported by a cauldron as being far more survivable than a HE army. The other thing he mentioned, which you glossed over, is the cheaper points cost. Make no mistake, the only reason people rate HE higher than DE is magic.

I'm fine with BoH, it's a 100pt magic item. But Teclis is nuts. An elf army SHOULD require a little more finesse, IMO. It shouldn't just be a "lolrofflestomp" army of IWIN."

In the 2k point range, I agree. Teclis can win the game for you. The tradeoff being that if Teclis doesn't win the game for you, you will lose. The rest of the army will be lacking too much to compensate. That being said, he is too much for a 2k game. In the 3k range, he is fine.

The only people I've seen have issues running HE are the ones who don't know how to pick their battles or apply force to the proper locations

I've done fairly well for myself in 8th. I tend to win most games with my HE, and it is usually a strong magic phase that allows that. When your army is outnumbered, it is very hard to "pick your battles" although I do agree it becomes SO MUCH MORE important to do so. When all things are equal, and both generals are "picking their battles" its alot easier to do so when you have fodder you can toss to tie up a unit for a round or 2.

If you are having problems with steadfast goblins, you have much bigger problems. Like, being unable to kill the BSB, which is the obvious core target in 8th ed. a LD of 5 on steadfast isn't all that great. At all.

How exactly does a HE army kill the BSB without magic though?

Assuming both generals are equally competent, the BSB will be bunkered, and protected by hordes in front of him. High Elf armies won't have the number of troops available to counteract that. Getting to the BSB is much easier said than done when you are outnumbered 2:1 or in the case of certain armies 3:1 or 4:1 (Skaven slaves can outnumber a unit of PG or SM by 7:1). A good general certainly won't allow a unit of Swordmasters to engage the unit containing his BSB.

I know your point is focused on the rerolls. If you remove the rerolls though, you are eliminating a large chunk of the HE offensive power. The current design for the HE army is to inflict maximum damage before you get hit back. Your units must be supported by magic, or they will fall. The two are designed to work together. I just personally think you are underestimating the impact of removing the rerolls on a HE army, and what it would do to the metagame.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
For fun, I did some math and figured out what the difference would be with rerolls compared to without rerolls.

You have a unit with 5 guys in the front rank and 5 supporting (the maximum # of attacks for 5 in a rank). Assuming the enemy you are facing has a lower WS, has a T of 3 and only get a parry save:

Swordmasters:
With Rerolls - 9.45 wounds
Without - 7.1 wounds

Same numbers, with White Lions:
Rerolls - 6.3 wounds
Without - 4.73 wounds

Phoenix Guard:
Rerolls - 5.03
Without - 3.78

These numbers would see a decrease if you were to up the WS of the enemy, up the T value, give them a better armor save than 5+, a regen save, or a better ward save than the standard parry. Overall I think the loss of the reroll is a rather large hit to the killing power of the army.

Don't Phoenix Gard have Halberds? I'm ONLY talking about reroll negation for Great weapons. And nothing else.

Also, I suppose this depends on the metagame. What is winning here is not hiding your BSB, it's throwing it in a Horde of Bigguns who slaughter anything they run into. no one runs 500 goblin/slave points denial lists. They run "In your face 2+ attack S5" hordes that have so much protection they can't be easily thinned before they reach your lines.

So sure, i suppose for those people who like their points denial, removing the rerol ON GREAT WEAPONS sucks for HE. But then, those lists suck for everyone, so...

It's different for DE because you have War Hydra's, you have great shooting (twice as many shots for less points ring a bell?), have better harassment units and have Core that is actually worth the points...

And as for comparing Black Guard to the High Elf elites: Black Guards always have re-rolls to hit (High Elves almost have this, but not against units like Black Guard), strike with 1 Strength less than Sword Masters, are Stubborn and cost 13.33% less. In my opinion, Black Guard are as good as Sword Masters.

Don't Phoenix Gard have Halberds? I'm ONLY talking about reroll negation for Great weapons. And nothing else.

True, forgot about that. Halberds are 2 handed but don't have ASL on them.

Also, I suppose this depends on the metagame. What is winning here is not hiding your BSB, it's throwing it in a Horde of Bigguns who slaughter anything they run into. no one runs 500 goblin/slave points denial lists. They run "In your face 2+ attack S5" hordes that have so much protection they can't be easily thinned before they reach your lines.

Any army that outnumbers you more than 2:1 will have an advantage determining which units fight where. Even orc units outnumber High Elves 2:1 (not black orcs, but regular orcs). If we are comparing 2 equally intelligent generals, the BSB will not engage the unit of Swordmasters unless they absolutely have to. Factor in that my swordmasters will be deployed 100% of the time before any horde of bigguns (this goes for any army that has low point cost units), and you have a situation where the bigguns will have the advantage going into the battle.

So sure, i suppose for those people who like their points denial, removing the rerol ON GREAT WEAPONS sucks for HE. But then, those lists suck for everyone, so...

I think removing the reroll on great weapons sucks for HE regardless of what they are facing. Thats almost a 25% decrease in the effective killing power of those units. I don't see how thats justified. It won't solve the "issue" that most players have against High Elves, in fact it will only exacerbate it. You will see less variety, and more magic.

Remember, those numbers are against low WS, T 3 opponents, with no armor save. Factor in an increase across the board for better troops, and you will see an even larger % decrease in the effectiveness for the HE. All the Swordmasters are supposed to do is shred opponents. If my elite, most deadly choice in CC can only kill 7.1 models a turn (on average) of the most basic troop in the game, I am not sure they are doing their job.

**Edit**
Seeing as how these armies aren't the only ones you run into, here are some numbers for Swordmasters against WoC warriors armed with only Halberds and a MoK.

7.53 wounds with rerolls
5.67 wounds without

When the warriors hit back, they do an average of 8.4 wounds. The warriors only cost a bit more in points, yet would outkill the swordmasters by 3:2. The warriors are a core choice, and the swordmasters are an elite one. The warriors are more survivable, whereas the swordmasters are designed for 1 purpose, killing.

You can do this with almost any other troop. The cost ratio without the rerolls will favor the enemy not the Swordmasters. I do not think a change like that would be justified at all. The only reason Swordmasters seem to be so deadly, is because they are supported by magic. Nerfing swordmasters or white lions just because they might be supported by magic is too shortsighted.

Lehnsherr wrote:

The only reason Swordmasters seem to be so deadly, is because they are supported by magic. Nerfing swordmasters or white lions just because they might be supported by magic is too shortsighted.

QFT