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Can Grand Master Mordrak join Paladins and use his rule First to the Fray? On Page 48 of the BRB it states that there are HQ choices that can have a retinue and when this bodyguard die, they count as independent characters from that point on. If Mordrak doesnt get his Ghost knights does he count as an IC ?
Thanks

Does Mordrak have the IC special rule? If he does, then yes he can join other units, if he does not then no he can not join any other units, other than those it says he specifically can.

A unit can consist of only a single model. That single model doesn't become an IC just because it's a single model unit.

Absolutely not. He is NEVER an ic

Also, nothing in the GK codex is a retinue. Mordrak becomes an upgrade character to the Ghost Knights, just like a Veteran Sergeant.

Homer

Mordrak is forever stuck with his ghost knights, he does not have IC (just like crowe) and must always be deployed with a unit of ghost knights. This means he cannot be picked out in close combat. wounds are simply alocated as if he was just equiped differently.

He is NOT forced to deploy with Ghost Knights; you dont have to purchase ANY Ghost Knights for him. You can also attach ICs to him.

nosferatu1001 wrote:He is NOT forced to deploy with Ghost Knights; you dont have to purchase ANY Ghost Knights for him. You can also attach ICs to him.

wrong on last 1

you cant attach ic to units of exaclty 1 model, except other ics

WRong, again.

You cannot attach ICs to units that ALWAYS consist of one model. Mordrak does not fit this criteria.

So you can always attach another IC to Mordrak.

nosferatu1001 wrote:WRong, again.

You cannot attach ICs to units that ALWAYS consist of one model. Mordrak does not fit this criteria.

So you can always attach another IC to Mordrak.

Agreed.

nosferatu1001 wrote:WRong, again.

You cannot attach ICs to units that ALWAYS consist of one model. Mordrak does not fit this criteria.

So you can always attach another IC to Mordrak.

Can you always attach a Tyranid Prime to a Hive Tyrant?

I can't see a difference between the two situations. Both involve a model that is alone in an entry, but can become a multi-model unit if a separate entry is taken.

Difference is that you buy mordrak + knights together, you dont decide to join them during the game.

You do if he generates them during play.

Homer

Homer S wrote:You do if he generates them during play.

Homer

Which is one of the many indications that he is never "always consisting of a single model". If he buys Ghost Knights, he is an upgrade character for them. Not a single unit there. If he is on his own, he has the ability to generate more models in his unit, therefore he never "always consists of a single model".

somerandomdude wrote:

Can you always attach a Tyranid Prime to a Hive Tyrant?

The hive tyrant is a monstrous creature, so he can't anyway.

What does being an MC have to do with it? A Carnifex is an MC and a Prime can join them just fine.

Mordrak is not a unit that always consists of a single model, so an IC can join him. If you buy or generate knights, Mordrak is automatically part of that unit.
A Hive Tyrant is a unit that always consists of a single model that can join one type of unit through a codex special rule. Note that you can buy the Guard and deploy the Tyrant and Guard separately, they're not a retinue or a unit that he must join.
See the difference?

Mordrak's special rules specifically state that when Mordrak is without Ghost Knights, he is treated as a single model unit, so no, Mordrak may not be joined by an IC when he is on his own. However, when nMordrak is with Ghost Knights, this restriction no longer applies, allowing IC to join with him and his Ghost Knights.

When in doubt, read the book.

SJ

Mordrak's special rules specifically state that when Mordrak is without Ghost Knights, he is treated as a single model unit, so no, Mordrak may not be joined by an IC when he is on his own.

Sorry, but that is NOT true.

jeffersonian000 wrote:Mordrak's special rules specifically state that when Mordrak is without Ghost Knights, he is treated as a single model unit, so no, Mordrak may not be joined by an IC when he is on his own. However, when nMordrak is with Ghost Knights, this restriction no longer applies, allowing IC to join with him and his Ghost Knights.

When in doubt, read the book.

SJ

1000% incorrect. Seriously. He is NEVER a "unit that always consists of one model" therefore ANY IC can join him.

He really is no different than any other unit bought consisting of one or more models. If you buy only a single model of thunderwolf cavalry, it could still be joined by ICs, even though it is a single-model unit.

Codex GK, pg. 40, last sentence of the first paragraph under the Ghostly Bodyguard entry: "... at which point he reverts to being a single-model unit in his own right."

"Revert" means to "go back to, or return to an original state". This means that Mordrak is a single-model unit when not accompanied by Ghost Knights. And as Mordrak lacks the Independent Character special rule, he can never join with another unit, nor be joined by another if he is on his own. Per the same paragraph, when Mordrak is accompanied by Ghost Knights, he is considered an upgrade character for that unit, which does allow Independent Charaters to join with his unit of Ghost Knights.

Reading ... it's a dying art.

SJ

Sarcasm sadly isnt.

Is Mordrak ALWAYS a single model unit? No.

Page 48. PLease reread it. You're missing the "always", or willfully ignoring it. One of the two.

Is there ever a time in the game when Mordrak is not unit consisting of a single model? Yes, there is. Therefor he is not a unit that ALWAYS consists of a single model, therefor an IC can join him.

Reading comprehension.... it's a dying art.

jeffersonian000 wrote:"... at which point he reverts to being a single-model unit in his own right."

Meaning he wasn't always a single model unit.

This means that Mordrak is a single-model unit when not accompanied by Ghost Knights.

Which also means that he is not always a single model unit.

Reading ... it's a dying art.

As is posting in a civil fashion. Luckily, we can do something about that.

Semantics. At no point can Mordrak join another unit or be joined by another unit, because he is a single-model unit as long he is not accompanied by Ghost Knights (at which point he is treated as an upgrade character for the unit of Ghost Knights). Ghost Knights, on the other hand, are never a single-model unit and therefore may be joined by Independent Characters as normal.

If you had even bothered to read Mordrak's entry in the GK codex before responding to the OP's or my post, then you might not have precieves my comment is sarcastic or uncivil. Saying I'm wrong without bothering to confirm your assumption is uncivil. Reading is a dying art, and I stand by my statement that when in doubt, read the book.

SJ

jeffersonian000 wrote: because he is a single-model unit as long he is not accompanied by Ghost Knights

There ya go. "As long as he is not accompanied by Ghost Knights". He is not ALWAYS a single model unit.

jeffersonian000 wrote:Semantics.

Which, in a discussion of the written word, often makes all the difference.

...because he is a single-model unit as long he is not accompanied by Ghost Knights

That 'as long as' means that he is not always a single-model unit. There is a situation in which he is not a single model unit (when he is accompanied by the rest of his unit)... ergo, he is not always a single-model unit.

Saying I'm wrong without bothering to confirm your assumption is uncivil.

I did confirm my 'assumption'... if a model is not always a single-model unit, then that model is not always a single-model unit. How much more confirmation do you need?

jeffersonian000 wrote:Semantics. At no point can Mordrak join another unit or be joined by another unit, because he is a single-model unit as long he is not accompanied by Ghost Knights (at which point he is treated as an upgrade character for the unit of Ghost Knights). Ghost Knights, on the other hand, are never a single-model unit and therefore may be joined by Independent Characters as normal.

If you had even bothered to read Mordrak's entry in the GK codex before responding to the OP's or my post, then you might not have precieves my comment is sarcastic or uncivil. Saying I'm wrong without bothering to confirm your assumption is uncivil. Reading is a dying art, and I stand by my statement that when in doubt, read the book.

SJ

Maybe you should read the basic rulebook before moving on to more difficult things like the GK codex. And especially before insulting people.

"Independent characters are allowed to join other units. They cannot, however, join vehicle squadrons (see the Vehicles section) and units that always consist of a single model (like most vehicles and monstrous creatures)."(BRB pg. 48)

"units that always consist of a single model"

If at any point in time, during any game in the future or the past, a unit can become a unit of more than one model, without breaking any rules, it can be joined by an independent character.

No matter how many ghost knights are bought when fielding Mordak, he always has the ability to become a unit of more than model.

So you are stating that the rules as written allows Mordrak to be joined by an independent character, regardless of Ghost Knights being present?

SJ

The intent may have been to have Modrak only able to be joined by ghost knights. The "at which point he reverts blah blah" wording seems to hint at this. But if that was the intent, it should have been much more explicit.

I've only just graduated from "always fumbling with rules" to "mostly fumbling with rules," but it seems pretty clear to me that:

Mordak cannot join a another unit because he does not have the "independent character special rule."

However, Mordrak becomes an upgrade character for a unit. Therefore the single model Mordrak unit is not always a single model unit. The fact that he is a single model unit when he is on his own does not change the fact that he is not always a single model unit. Hence, the single model Modrak unit may be joined by an IC.

jeffersonian000 wrote:So you are stating that the rules as written allows Mordrak to be joined by an independent character, regardless of Ghost Knights being present?

That's what people are saying, yes. Just as ICs can join any other single-model units so long as that unit has the possibility of containing more than one model. If a unit has a composition of, say, 1-3 models, an IC can still join it if you only select 1 model for that unit, because the unit is not always a unit of one model. It can potentially have more.

Mordrak is no different to every other unit in that regard. His selection process is just a little different.