Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

First of all this is not a rant against Games Workshop, so please let’s not turn it into one. I decided for my own personal reasons to stop / limit the amount of money I spend on my hobby with GW as I no longer can justify to myself their ludicrous prices and pricing policy (in my opinion). I think the increase in Finecast tipped the balance. I thought I’d share my experience with people on ‘life after GW’ in the hope it may help people unsure of what’s out there. A bit of background first….

I consider myself a ‘mature’ gamer having been an avid fan and supporter of GW for +20 years (yes I’m that old). The only wargames / models I have ever played / painted have been GW’s, everything to do with my hobby is GW. For me the painting comes first, the social aspect of playing games second, with third being the actual game itself. Mostly I’ve played 40k, but have played Epic, Space Hulk, Necromunda, Gorkamorka and at the start of it all, Space Crusade. I’ve spent anything up to £5,000 on GW / Forgeworld products in one year and probably my yearly hobby budget is around the £2,000 to £3,000 on average. But you seem to be getting less and less for your money, so I took the decision to see what is out there, and spend my money with other companies. I will continue to keep all my GW armies updated with new models as and when they need them, but I have 5 large 40k armies, I wanted to start a 6th, but couldn’t justify to myself the prices of the new Dark Eldar range…………

Painting and Supplies.
It took a while, but after researching I realised I can get any of my GW paints cheaper. They just have different names and are made by Vallejo. GW = 12ml for £2.30. Vallejo = 17ml for £2.00. For those of you not able to do the maths, but buying Vallejo, I’m saving £1.25 on a pot of paint for almost the identical product. I still prefer the GW pots, so they get washed out and filled with Vallejo. A year I probably use around 60 pots so this puts £75 back in my pocket, and it doesn’t stop there. GW spray is now £9.50. I’ve switched to Army Painter Spray and after using it for a few models, I can safely say it is a better product and £2.00 cheaper than GW. I probably go through 10 cans a year, another £20 in my pocket. As for brushes, I’ve tried other brushes, but I actually really like GW ones, so I’ll continue to buy them. I also prefer their washes and foundation paints, so I’ve continued with those as well.

Games & Models
This has been the biggest step into the unknown for me. After heavily researching I decided to try a ‘skirmish’ game and settled on Spartan Games Firestorm Armada. Basically it’s ship to ship combat in space. I picked up a rule book and was so refreshed with what I read. Here was the book, telling me to download paper cut out models to trial with to see if I liked them before buying them. Telling me to use other manufacture’s models with these rules, but here’s our range of models to consider. And then there is the price. I’ve bought a rule set, scenery, gaming mat, and 2 different armies for less than a third of what I would have spent on a new GW army. But it’s not just that. There is a new ‘buzz’ in the air between my gaming friends and I who’ve all gone out and bought their own fleets. How are you painting yours? When’s our first game? Have you seen this? What strategy can I use? Not for a long while have I been excited to try something new out on the table (except with the Wife but that’s another story!). It’s totally brought in a new life to our hobby that non of us realised was missing. We’d all fallen foul of same old same old, knowing exactly what my opponent would field and what he’d gun for first to take out etc.

There are so many small niche model companies out there making excellent stuff. Kromlech, Maxmini, Armorcast, Micro Arts Studio, Pig Iron, which I’ve all now bought bits from to enhance some of my armies and models. I got 30 Soviet Grots from Micro Arts Studio’s and I was like ‘Waagghh’ with the coolness of the models and the quality of them. The same feeling with stuff I got from Kromlech. It was an eye opener to the quality of the smaller manufacture’s who are now feeding my model addiction over GW. I know it was wrong but in the back of my head it was saying 'Only GW models can be any good'. If these companies can provide detailed resin models with all the flash already sanded off, why can't FW?

I’m a big fan of Anime and Manga and have been collecting and Painting Sodapop models since they arrived on the Hobby Scene. At the moment I’m buzzing waiting to pick up a copy of their Super Dungeon Explore game when it’s available. I looked forward to buying the latest copy of Space Hulk the other year, but I own every copy made. SDE was something new and original I’d not seen before. I’ve opened up to what great games are out there from other companies other than GW, I just needed to take the blindfold off.

Other Stuff
I’m in the process of changing all my figure cases for Battlefoam ones. In my opinion a far superior product that’s worth the extra cost. I’ve found ‘Litko’ who are making gaming tokens for uses in all sorts of games, including the ‘Epic Fail’ token. This has now become common currency amongst us and whoever holds the most has to get the Pizza or Beers in. I’ve found a Greenstuff manufacturer selling GS at a quarter of the price of GW with a larger amount of GS in the packet. One of our gaming friends is now researching ‘Infinity’ as a game to play.

In Summary……
GW will always have a hook in me. The rich and diverse background of the 40k universe has no comparison and I enjoy their games. But they are very controlling with their models (i.e., you must use this, you must do this) and the pricing has gone way OTT for my liking. In starting a completely new games system we’ve brought a new buzz into our hobby and it’s leaving more money to explore more products / systems / shoes for the Wife.

All I can say is if like me you’ve only explored GW, get out there with your friends and explore something else, there is so much to choose from if you look………..

Wow, that is a beautiful post. I hope you will continue to have lots of fun with other manufacturers and games.

I am relatively new to the hobby myself, but I agree that GW prices are just too high. I do love the models GW produce and the convenience of finding everything you need (rules, models, paints, brushes and whatever) in one place is awesome, but their prices often cause me to say no. I am thinking of starting WHFB, but the rule book alone is €60...

A while ago I ran into a few boxes of Mantic models, and the price tag on it made me check and re-check to see if it wasn't a typo. And when I bought a box I even ended up getting a discount.

Anyway, I agree with your points. I don't want to rant because if I hated GW I wouldn't be buying their products in the first place.

TheSecretSquig wrote:Painting and Supplies.
It took a while, but after researching I realised I can get any of my GW paints cheaper. They just have different names and are made by Vallejo. GW = 12ml for £2.30. Vallejo = 17ml for £2.00. For those of you not able to do the maths, but buying Vallejo, I’m saving £1.25 on a pot of paint for almost the identical product. I still prefer the GW pots, so they get washed out and filled with Vallejo. A year I probably use around 60 pots so this puts £75 back in my pocket, and it doesn’t stop there. GW spray is now £9.50. I’ve switched to Army Painter Spray and after using it for a few models, I can safely say it is a better product and £2.00 cheaper than GW. I probably go through 10 cans a year, another £20 in my pocket. As for brushes, I’ve tried other brushes, but I actually really like GW ones, so I’ll continue to buy them. I also prefer their washes and foundation paints, so I’ve continued with those as well.

You don't have to quit GW games to use Vellajo paints, Army Painter primers, galeforce 9 drills and files, etc. If you were sticking to GW hobby supplies, then it's really your own fault.

Just saying.

I mean, the only things I'd say are simply better from GW and worth their price are their foundation paints and washes.

Sorry, I may need to read this through again to be sure but:

@Loki: He isn't giving up the game....just saving himself some money by shopping smarter.

It seems that a lot of people who have made the switch from GW colours have stuck with the washes and foundations, me included.


@TheSecretSquig - I agree with you on a bunch of your points. I still buy some GW products, just not directly from GW and more often than not, for cheaper. I've also started looking at other game systems.



Great post mate, some bits came off a little bit more bitter than maybe you intended but I've adopted a similar stance to you and have saved myself christ knows how much money so far.

Might want to write some articles on your experiences with your alternative modelling supplies/gaming systems?

TheSecretSquig wrote:Painting and Supplies.
It took a while, but after researching I realised I can get any of my GW paints cheaper. They just have different names and are made by Vallejo. GW = 12ml for £2.30. Vallejo = 17ml for £2.00. For those of you not able to do the maths, but buying Vallejo, I’m saving £1.25 on a pot of paint for almost the identical product. I still prefer the GW pots, so they get washed out and filled with Vallejo. A year I probably use around 60 pots so this puts £75 back in my pocket, and it doesn’t stop there. GW spray is now £9.50. I’ve switched to Army Painter Spray and after using it for a few models, I can safely say it is a better product and £2.00 cheaper than GW. I probably go through 10 cans a year, another £20 in my pocket. As for brushes, I’ve tried other brushes, but I actually really like GW ones, so I’ll continue to buy them. I also prefer their washes and foundation paints, so I’ve continued with those as well.

I really don't understand why GW sells so many paints, especially at my FLGS where the Vallejo are stocked right beside GW. The Vallejo brand is better and cheaper, and it's not hard to match up color differences (Citadel Ultramarine Blue = Vallejo Ultra Marine Blue). Although I do agree that some of GW's washes are worth the extra expense. Plus, you know, Devlan Mud.

However, have you looked at professional brushes like Winsor & Newton? Even with the amount of painting that you do, a few Series 7's would last quite a while. They're moderately more expensive than GW, but a lot better (I think GW uses synthetics, not sure) and will last longer, assuming you take care of them.

Keep in mind, anything GW sells that's not a model they buy from someone else and mark up the price. That means that anything you get from GW can be found elsewhere for less. And probably in a better quality.

I save alot by making my own washes and using Vallejo paints. Dickblick.com is great for most art supplies and widgetsupply.com is great for modeling supplies. I get my minis online for 25% off and do not really buy GW anymore either. Malifaux has it's hooks on me real good as of late although I really miss Gorkamorka and Necromunda. If they got support again then GW would get some of my money again, but until then I am satisfied with cheaper games. The minis may cost about the same, but the model count saves me loads.

Almost forgot...if you can make Payne's Grey wash you will never regret it. The best thing I ever made for washes!

On the painting supplies front I totally aggree, but my head was in this bubble that only GW can sell me the paints I need. I've not for a long time bought anything directly from GW, I use Maelstrom instead.

biccat wrote: really don't understand why GW sells so many paints, especially at my FLGS where the Vallejo are stocked right beside GW. The Vallejo brand is better and cheaper, and it's not hard to match up color differences (Citadel Ultramarine Blue = Vallejo Ultra Marine Blue). .

More people know about GW paints, and they are available more places. Vallejo at times are horrible at supplying distributors and retailers. I spent two years waiting for a paint rack through my distributor. They could sell me the paints, but never had the racks. I finally got two Vallejo racks from stores that went out of business. The range has changed a bit and strips are not up to date, but better than nothing. It seems like they ship paint to the US every few months. I can have certain colors out of stock for weeks on end, unavailable for order.

I have about 6 different paint racks in my store, and the worst for stock levels is absolutely Vallejo. If they kept their suppliers filled up, I'd order more and sell more.)

Honestly, I still buy GW over Vallejo because I like pots and hate Droppers.

That said, the new pots annoy me because the tops don't lock upright.

GW will always be #1 for me, I just have too much invested (both time and money) to drop em completely. The higher prices do suck, but I just buy what I can afford, just less of it. I'm not increasing my fun stuff allowance of $50 a month, so I'm just gonna get what I can afford. If I know something expensive is coming like a new box set that I want or whatever, I'll just save up.

I've been checking out other stuff lately. My club is starting to get into warmachine now when they used to be 100% GW games. I'm getting into Dust Tactics/Warfare and I wouldn't mind checking out Firestorm Armada or Leviathan.. but, I have limited game cash to spend and on top of that, I barely ever get to play anymore.. I get like 1 game in every 6 months or so. So that also makes me hesitant to get into newer games too.

mikhaila wrote:

biccat wrote: really don't understand why GW sells so many paints, especially at my FLGS where the Vallejo are stocked right beside GW. The Vallejo brand is better and cheaper, and it's not hard to match up color differences (Citadel Ultramarine Blue = Vallejo Ultra Marine Blue). .

More people know about GW paints, and they are available more places. Vallejo at times are horrible at supplying distributors and retailers. I spent two years waiting for a paint rack through my distributor. They could sell me the paints, but never had the racks. I finally got two Vallejo racks from stores that went out of business. The range has changed a bit and strips are not up to date, but better than nothing. It seems like they ship paint to the US every few months. I can have certain colors out of stock for weeks on end, unavailable for order.

I have about 6 different paint racks in my store, and the worst for stock levels is absolutely Vallejo. If they kept their suppliers filled up, I'd order more and sell more.)

I have to agree. Nothing bugs me more than going to a store for paint, only to see they are out, and then coming back 2 weeks later... and they are still out. Sadly this means I will pay for convenience and a premium for stuff in stock... Also, I have had really bad experiences buying paint off the internet in both colors not matching and being dried out. At least in a store, I can match paints and open a pot to see if the paint is liquid and fresh or not.

I know GW paints are expensive, and I use some alternative brands for inks and washes, but when it comes to my wheelhouse, Chaos black, Boltgun meta, Goblin green and Ultramarines blue... GW pots are where it is at.

A very nice original post.

I myself was not so heavily invested in 40k that my decision to leave the game will not haunt me. I do have enough E:A to play games and still enjoy the 40k universe at a scale that suits me with a game that I can enjoy.

I'm moved over to historicals mostly, with Flames of War being my gateway game. Seriously, you'll balk at GW's prices when you realize that guys like the Perry Brothers can offer a box of 36 28mm (25mm?) multi-part plastic infantry for $30. And, of course, the fact that you can pick up a good size 6mm army for around $60.

As for paints, I'd recommend searching 'how to make a wet palette' on google. One plastic container, some freezer paper, and some paper towels later, I have exactly what I need to keep my Vallejo paints good for up to a week.

Platuan4th wrote:Honestly, I still buy GW over Vallejo because I like pots and hate Droppers.

I can only assume that you paint directly out of the pot. How do you minimize cross-contamination, watering down, or drying out?

Since I use a separate palette, the droppers is I love most about Vallejo droppers, I can easily get the right amount of paint to my palette without worrying about spilling or gunking up the tops of my paints.

mikhaila wrote:Vallejo at times are horrible at supplying distributors and retailers.

I have a very good friend who runs a midwest retail store, and his experience is significantly different than yours, FWIW. He has no trouble getting Vallejo paints. I will see if I can find out which distributor he uses, but he's never lacking in product for that line.

I prefer Vallejo's droppers over GW's newer style pots that don't stay open.. I liked the last kind with the black flip tops, that had the little flat part on the inside of the lower lid. I do like the fact that the new pots have clear tops though.

That said, the new pots annoy me because the tops don't lock upright.

Every generation of GW paints has had that problem since the mid 90's. Different gak, same stink.

AesSedai wrote:

That said, the new pots annoy me because the tops don't lock upright.

Every generation of GW paints has had that problem since the mid 90's. Different gak, same stink.

Actually, many of the Foundation paints DO lock upright, it's the non-foundations that don't. The previous style also did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

biccat wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:Honestly, I still buy GW over Vallejo because I like pots and hate Droppers.

I can only assume that you paint directly out of the pot. How do you minimize cross-contamination, watering down, or drying out?

Watering down isn't so much a problem. No cross contamination, as I use a palette(or cheap plastic pot for large, army wide mixes) for mixing, using plastic syringes for each color(or if I don't need to mix a decent batch, I simply clean the brush after adding and mixing in a different color). For drying out, do you mean the pot or the palette?

Platuan4th wrote:For drying out, do you mean the pot or the palette?

The pot, since I assumed you painted straight from the pot, which is, IMO, the only reason to use GW paints.

But I'm confused, you don't like Vallejo droppers, yet use disposable plastic droppers to get the paint out of your pots? Wouldn't it be easier to use droppers already containing the paints you want?

biccat wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:For drying out, do you mean the pot or the palette?

The pot, since I assumed you painted straight from the pot, which is, IMO, the only reason to use GW paints.

But I'm confused, you don't like Vallejo droppers, yet use disposable plastic droppers to get the paint out of your pots? Wouldn't it be easier to use droppers already containing the paints you want?

My pots aren't open long enough at a single time to dry out. I've painted straight from the pot since I began 15 or so year ago and the only dry outs I've had are from year long+ periods of disuse from a color.

You are confused, as the only time I use the syringes is when I need to transfer more than a brush load or 2 to a palette for mixing, the pots I use for consistent army wide mixes, or airbrush container. The amount of times I do that isn't enough to justify the cost of a second dropper alongside the pot.

My hate of the dropper stems from how much wastage there is on to my palette when I only need a tiny amount. Of course, this issue is really only caused by my not having invested in a wet palette because I've yet to order one from online(haven't found one in stock at any hobby stores here).

However, I will and do buy Vallejo, as the store I purchase Warmachine from(they offer a discount unlike the other stores here) only carries Vallejo and P3 so if I'm there and needing a color, I buy the Vallejo equivalent. Plus Vallejo still makes colors GW doesn't(like Tentacle Pink for my Horrors).

My system has worked this long, I've yet to see a reason to fix it.

I paint straight from the pot, it does dry and thicken over time, but all ya need is a couple drops of water and a good shake once in a while and it'll keep your paints good as new. I have some colors going back 1+ years back to the old white flip tops, I think they were the bestest tops of all.

Nice post. Sounds like you're in roughtly the same boat as myself and some of my gaming friends

TheSecretSquig wrote: as I no longer can justify to myself their ludicrous prices and pricing policy (in my opinion). I think the increase in Finecast tipped the balance...
I consider myself a ‘mature’ gamer having been an avid fan and supporter of GW for +20 years (yes I’m that old). The only wargames / models I have ever played / painted have been GW’s, everything to do with my hobby is GW. For me the painting comes first, the social aspect of playing games second, with third being the actual game itself.

This is where we're at. Those of us who used to be into the big-name games just can't stomach the prices anymore and our priorities are roughly the same, though some of us aren't as mad about painting.

TheSecretSquig wrote:Painting and Supplies.
It took a while, but after researching I realised I can get any of my GW paints cheaper. They just have different names and are made by ...

Definitely. I don't think any of us use GW paints. One of us is a Vallejo fan and one uses a whole range of artists' acrylics nither of which is nearly as expensive as GW. I use craft paints as though I like the resulte, none of my paint jobs are fine enough to require a miniature-specific paitn. Also, getting 4 times as much for 1/3 the price is quite nice!

TheSecretSquig wrote: Games & Models...
... There is a new ‘buzz’ in the air between my gaming friends and I who’ve all gone out and bought their own fleets. How are you painting yours? When’s our first game? Have you seen this? What strategy can I use? Not for a long while have I been excited to try something new out on the table (except with the Wife but that’s another story!). It’s totally brought in a new life to our hobby that non of us realised was missing. We’d all fallen foul of same old same old, knowing exactly what my opponent would field and what he’d gun for first to take out etc.

There are so many small niche model companies out there making excellent stuff. Kromlech, Maxmini, Armorcast, Micro Arts Studio, Pig Iron, which I’ve all now bought bits from to enhance some of my armies and models...

... I’ve opened up to what great games are out there from other companies other than GW, I just needed to take the blindfold off.

Very True, realy breaths alot of life into your gaming when you aren't set on what rules you'll play next month or which figures you'll buy. We've been trying various generic Fantasy and Sci-Fi Skirmish rules and it's awesome to see games where not only do you have no idea what kind of figures your opponent will show up with (we routinely have 4-10 brands of figures on one table, all painted of course...), there's also alot of spontenaity in playing rulesets that haven't been inspected/mathed/cheezed to death by ourselves and the internet community.

TheSecretSquig wrote:In Summary……
GW will always have a hook in me. The rich and diverse background of the 40k universe has no comparison and I enjoy their games. But they are very controlling with their models (i.e., you must use this, you must do this) and the pricing has gone way OTT for my liking. In starting a completely new games system we’ve brought a new buzz into our hobby and it’s leaving more money to explore more products / systems / shoes for the Wife.
All I can say is if like me you’ve only explored GW, get out there with your friends and explore something else, there is so much to choose from if you look………..

No reason to have to leave GW entirely -I'll always hold onto my BA and IG- but taking of the GW-only blinders really opens up a whole world of possibilities.

Excellent post as I share a similar situation with the OP.

Glad to see another person discovering GW isnt the end-all be-all of gaming. There are many good companies, games and minis out there, and anyone who doesnt look around and check out stuff besides GW is doing themselves a disservice.

Now I will admit I love many of GWs minis, and would buy silly amounts if I had the money. However, Im not all that into the rules systems they have so I dont play any of their games.

I love me some vallejo, more for your money

Only problem is I sometimes get a bad one. One time my dark green was clogged and when I unclogged it, the pot decided to gush out all the liquid leaving only some dried up paint

Only good things from GW paint is their washes and foundations and even then if I feel like getting some cheap stuff theres always a woodstainer at wal mart and I think vallejo has some opaque colors though never tried those myself.

I always sigh when I see some poor sod buying a gw spray can.

You take Vallejo paints out of dropper bottles and then put them into GWS pots? Talk about in Soviet Russia!

I tend to use a mix of Vallejo and GWS paints, but I transfer them all to droppers if they don't come that way. They last longer since they don't dry out as fast, and my clumsy ham hands don't knock them over and spill them everywhere.

GWS is more expensive for sure, but some of their paint is also legitimately better. Some of Vallejo is legitimately better. Why don't people have these kinds of fanboy arguments about other tools they use? You don't see screwdriver forums arguing about how phillips rocks flathead.

This is a great post and pretty much reflects how my bro and I feel at the moment.....
He has alot more disposable income than me at the moment, and introducing me to so many new games systems at the moment. Playing KoW this Friday and possibly some Dust Tactics too. I'm looking forward to it