Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Having a game today against a friend, and he's using tau.
My list:
Autarch W/Fusion gun
Autarch W/Fusion gun
5 Fire dragons//Wave serpent W/T.L. Shruiken cannon and Spirit stones
5 Fire dragons//Wave serpent W/T.L. Shruiken cannon and Spirit stones
5 Fire dragons//Wave serpent W/T.L. Shruiken cannon and Spirit stones
5 Dire Avengers//Wave serpent W/T.L. Scatter lasers and Spirit stones
5 Dire Avengers//Wave serpent W/T.L. Scatter lasers and Spirit stones
5 Dire Avengers//Wave serpent W/T.L. Scatter lasers and Spirit stones
3 War walkers W/6 Scatter lasers
3 War walkers W/6 Scatter lasers
2 War walkers W/4 Scatter lasers

His tau:
Commander shas'el W/Plasma rifle, missle pods, targetting array, H.W. Multi-tracker and H.W. drone controller W/2 shield drones
3 Crisis suits W/3 plasma rifles, 3 missile pods and 3 multi-tracker//Team leader W/Bonding knife and 2 shield drones
3 Crisis suits W/3 plasma rifles, 3 missile pods and 3 multi-tracker.
3 crisis suits W/3 T.L. missile pods and targetting arrays//Team leader W/Bonding knife and 2 shield drones
6 Fire warriors
10 kroot//5 hounds
10 kroot//4 hounds
10 kroot//4 hounds
5 Pathfinders//Devilfish W/Disruption field
2 Broadsides//ASS
2 Broadsides//ASS
2 Broadsides//ASS

Who do you think will win?

MSU

cheapbuster wrote:MSU

QFT, Tau will win despite the mistake of taking Kroot. There's just too much AT in there even though you have the Energy Field.

Kroot, a mistake? He took them to bubble wrap the broadsides.

woodbok wrote:Kroot, a mistake? He took them to bubble wrap the broadsides.

Kroot is a mistake, In the 5 years i've played Tau i've discovered despite the hype they are not worth taking, Fire Warriors in Devilfish are so much better and more manouverable.

Yeah going MSU as Tau Fire Warriors for the Devilfish is infinitely better. At worst you use the fire warriors as meatshields for the broadsides and have the Devilfish go shooting stuff.

Any decent Tournament winning Tau player knows that Tau Troops are crap. The only reason to get the Fire Warriors is to buy the Devilfish.

BTW your War Walkers may have done well against the BA, but they will MELT against the Broadsides(auto-pen lmao).

That's some serious kidding, yes?

Kroot are 7 points a model, hit better than Marines in CC, gain 3+ in forests which are present at most tournaments one way or another, shoot with 1 point of strengh less than FWs, are independent from their costly and overpriced Devilfishes since they got infiltration, may appear in really big units able to counter-assault depleted by shooting enemy...

I felll for this joke... I hope. You had to be kidding.

As to winning, woodbok, your tanks have durability and speed (Wave Serpents just laugh at broadsides), so it all comes to a few things...

Will you pull off overload Alpha Strike or not?

I think after initial turn of shooting of your War Walkers (directed at regular Crisis suits) they will drop or at least get crippled as a fire team (eat those S7 missiles and Broadside shots that would initially be wasted versus Serpents). But I believe he will really have no options as it comes to stopping your Fire Dragons. If he even bubble-wrap his Broadsides, if they survive first turn... I mean second turn Flat-Out (maybe not all, but most I believe will), the you just Tank Shock your way through his lines...

All Ld 7 units that don't actually run away will free up some space after Serpent's prow moves them away. Then, Dragons deploy at almost point blank range to Broadsides...

If they survive, they will get crippled.

With 90% of enemy anti-tank crippled, and your scoring units safely aboard, it will be a mop-up.

Cheers.

I think some of you misunderstand my strategy. All my units go in reserve, and on turn 2 I get +2 to my reserves. I'll post the battle report ASAP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Battle report.

Mission: seize ground (3 objectives)
Deployment: Pitched battle

He won roll to go first (I got a 1, as normal) and chose to go first.
His deployment.

Turn 1.

Turn2.

My move: I get 2 fire dragon squads, The normal dire avenger unit, both dire avenger units with autarchs in, and all the walkers. So just one unit of fire dragons didn't come on.

All my tanks flat-out.
Shooting: I shoot 6 walkers into the Plasma rifle/Missile pod suits next to them, wiping them and their drones out. The other 2 walkers shoot the kroot in front, but they go to ground so no wounds.

I assault the 2 walkers into the Kroot. (To stop him shooting them, and to get the kroot out of the way so next turn I can melta gun him)

(I made a mistake. I thought Kroot were strength 3, not 4. So, Due to untimly bad luck, they immobilise both vehicles, and wreck them. )

His Turn 3: movement.

His shooting: He shoots his twin-linked missile pods at my Wave serpent closest to him, and he destroys my scatter lasers. Broadsides shoot it as well, but they whiff. 2 more broadsides shoot the wave serpent to the right flank, and explode it. Killing 3 dragons in the blast. The last 2 broadsides shoot the other fire dragon serpent, and shake it.

My turn 3. Movement: I get my last dragon squad on.

I shoot some war walkers into his broadside squad, And kill one. He pass's his LD. (At this time, I know I can't beat his fire power, so I'll just hope for a last turn objective jump)

His turn 4. Movement:

Shooting: His T.L. Missile pod suits wreck the dire avenger serpent in front of them. The Plas/Pod suits shoot the fire dragon wave serpent, but Whiff. The kroot shoot at my remaining 2 fire dragons, and wipe them out. The 2 broadsides lining his board edge shoot the wave serpent also on his board edge, but whiff.

Assault: His kroot assault my wave serpent, but needing 6 to hit and 6 to glance, do nothing. His suits move as well.

My turn 4. My move. (I tank shock with the wave serpent against the kroot in front of me, and they run off the board!!)

Shooting: Fire dragons shoot the crisis suits, and kill 2 suits and a shield drone. Then the war walkers shoot them, and kill the last shield drone. The dire avengers on foot run towards the objective. the war walkers nearest his board edge kill the lone broadside.

Tau turn 5. Move:

Tau shoot: His Deathrain suits explode the last fire dragon wave serpent, killing 2 fire dragons. They then die to to kroot. The Shas'el squad kills all of the fire dragons.

In assault he moves his suits next to the objective, contesting it.

My turn 5. Move. fire dragon wave serpent tank shocks the commander squad, and they fail LD! They fall back.

Shooting: The war walkers near his board edge shoot the Deathrain suits, killing all but the Team leader. The other squad of walkers shoot the commanders squad, And killing but the commander. (He has 1 wound left)

The game ends there, with me winning 2-1.

This game was really tough. The amount of firepower he can put out is frightening. I had to resort to just jumping around to contest objectives.

the weird one wrote:That's some serious kidding, yes?

Kroot are 7 points a model, hit better than Marines in CC, gain 3+ in forests which are present at most tournaments one way or another, shoot with 1 point of strengh less than FWs, are independent from their costly and overpriced Devilfishes since they got infiltration, may appear in really big units able to counter-assault depleted by shooting enemy...

I felll for this joke... I hope. You had to be kidding.

I can't help but disagree with you more. How do Kroot hit better than Space Marines in CC? both are WS, the only difference is that Kroot have 1 more attack standard, but the disadvantage is that they are T3 and have a 6+ save, In a combat where no one charges the marines will easily win...

a 3+ Cover save is nice in forests, but that won't help you when a decent armored enemy will assault you, the 3+ cover save will mean your opponent will focus his fire elsewhere and overall is not the best idea when you have T3 and you are MSU.

Devilfish, Overpriced? Yes and No, for 80 points you get a decently armoured vehicle that pumps out a total of 5 Str 5 shots (2 at BS 2 but Twin Linked) after moving 6", in objective games the gun drones help alot too providing nice objective contesters for that last gasp break for it.

The only way to take Kroot is by going MSU and To be honest this is a bad choice, 12 Fire Warriors mounted in a devilfish may be much more expensive but will do so much more for you with their S5 Rapid Fire Guns, and not only that they won't hold enemy units up in combat which is what Kroot definatley don't want to be doing as the Tau cannot use their S5 weaponry!

Nothing to say about the battle then? Shame.

woodbok wrote:Nothing to say about the battle then? Shame.

Sorry Got caught up in the Kroot row, give me some time to read it in full and i'll post a response

Why did two wave serpents stay back for so long? Eldar NEED to move. It should be a natural part of the Eldar tactics to be faster than everyone else and use it to your advantage and with that many wave serpents you should have been in his face as soon as you were on the board. Beating tau requiers you to be right in their faces with your tanks ASAP using turbo boostness to get a cover save as well as energy feilds to maximize survival chances then deploy in front of him without moving so you can charge afterwards and fire your assault weaps beforehand as well as the Wave serpents unleashing a salvo of TL SC and SL.......

there something as been said.

Btw congrats on winning. you have served your craftworld well.

Because the mission was objectives, and 3 units of 5 dire avengers don't last long when there near Tau.

they do if the're in combat with them because he can't shoot you if your in CC with his pesky FW's

woodbok wrote:Because the mission was objectives, and 3 units of 5 dire avengers don't last long when there near Tau.

That was the best idea

Good Report, I've been wanting to make a Eldar WS List myself, I think you did the right thing, but I'm not a fan of MSU

I think where the Tau player does come in the wrong is with the Kroot, especially against this list, He is spending 100 points on creating a shield for the broadsides when they aren't going to get assaulted this quickly, against Eldar FW's come in much more handy with the S5 shots they can dish out they can even hurt WW's when against a mech army while the Railguns and Missile Pods pop the tanks.

Good battle. The only thing I'd propobably have done differently is shoot the crap out of his Crisis suits with Walkers and get as many Dragons to target Broadsides later.
Honestly, he didn't really have that much firepower, I expected worse - him targeting War Walkers with broadsides.
Also, he got some hilarious luck when those Kroots wrecked both Walkers.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:I can't help but disagree with you more. How do Kroot hit better than Space Marines in CC? both are WS, the only difference is that Kroot have 1 more attack standard, but the disadvantage is that they are T3 and have a 6+ save, In a combat where no one charges the marines will easily win...

Albeit you get two Kroot per Marine... and one free point. All the sudden, Marine looses, both in shooting and CC. And he ain't got no Infiltrate. Did I mention sick unit composition?

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:a 3+ Cover save is nice in forests, but that won't help you when a decent armored enemy will assault you, the 3+ cover save will mean your opponent will focus his fire elsewhere and overall is not the best idea when you have T3 and you are MSU.

I really don't get this line. Decent armored enemy will assault after being seriously depleted by firepower - cheap kroot firepower included. What's more, if you charge Kroot, then his firepower units are still intact, which is the point of thing. And he may actually manage to win the combat with Kroot. And their cheap... expendable. Unlike decent armored unit, costing lot of points, dying on Kroot speed bump... or one consolidation away from this combat.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:Devilfish, Overpriced? Yes and No, for 80 points you get a decently armoured vehicle that pumps out a total of 5 Str 5 shots (2 at BS 2 but Twin Linked) after moving 6", in objective games the gun drones help alot too providing nice objective contesters for that last gasp break for it.

Guesmen beat Drones. For half that price you get GK Rhino. For less that, Blood Angels full Firepower overload Razorback. For just a bit more, Eldar Wave Serpent (which has overpriced weaponry by the by). For freagin 55 points you get Chimera. Everything Devilfish can do Chimera does better... apart from one point side armour.
It is overpriced. Really. What's worse, there ain't no decent units to transport inside. Main firepower jumps itself.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:The only way to take Kroot is by going MSU and To be honest this is a bad choice, 12 Fire Warriors mounted in a devilfish may be much more expensive but will do so much more for you with their S5 Rapid Fire Guns, and not only that they won't hold enemy units up in combat which is what Kroot definatley don't want to be doing as the Tau cannot use their S5 weaponry!

Large Kroot units actually win the game. ;P 12 Warriors + Fevilfish are over 30 Kroots. I see no way those could do more with S5 guns than 30 Kroots with S4 guns. And save vs shooting is same. And Kroots infiltrate. And Kroots ignore DT in Forests. And get 3+ cover there. 3+ cover that with GtG can become 2+ when holding objective. And they infiltrate... D'oh. I think I don't need to mention differences in Close Combat.

I really can't understand in which cases (and it is my opinion that there are none) Fire Warriors actually perform better.

Cheers

Nice battle, I agreed with your strategy - not least because I voted for Eldar - being an objective battle, I think you did the right thing to tie the Tau; they've got superior firepower, particularly against your walkers, but they really suffer in objective games due to a lack of mobility, hence the need to hold back your otherwise speedy and unscathed troops. Well played and close game.

Here is my Tau List at 1500 points:

HQ:

Shas'o Firestorm 135
Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, Shield Generator, H/W Multi Tracker, H/W Blacksun Filter

Troops:

12 Fire Warriors 130
Shas'ui

12 Fire Warriors 200
Devilfish

12 Fire Warriors 200
Devilfish

Elites:

3 Crisis Suits 186
Plasma Rifles, Missile Pods, Multi Trackers

3 Crisis Suits 159
TL Missile Pods, Targeting Arrays

Heavy:

Hammerhead 165
Railgun, Burst Cannons, Multi, Disrupt

Hammerhead 165
Railgun, Burst Cannons, Multi, Disrupt

2 Broadsides 160
Advanced Stabiliziation Systems.

1500/1500

In the 8 games I have played with this list I have yet to lose once, putting in 5 Wins and 3 Draws, Don't get me wrong Kroot are nice in forests but seriously how many forests will there be in a tournament game? 2 Tops. and they won't be over your side of the board so you can deploy/infiltrate into them all of the time

Another Point, was that the actual terrain you used on that board? There was way to much woodland on that board and that's why those Kroot would've performed quite well.

the weird one wrote:Albeit you get two Kroot per Marine... and one free point. All the sudden, Marine looses, both in shooting and CC. And he ain't got no Infiltrate. Did I mention sick unit composition?

How? Ok then both units are shooting at one another, 3's to hit and to kill for the marine while the kroot have to stick with 4's. You can't always assume they will be in a forest and even the marine would beat 2 Kroot in CC with his 3+ Save. With 4 Kroot attacks you are likely to get 1 wound and the SM should pass his save, if he then wounds with his attack you don't even get a save, and what happens when you lose against MEQ's such as Chaos marines with a BP and CC weapon? you run away on low ld and get your precious objective unit mowed down.

You want to know why Kroot don't work in this game? Mechanised Wins, this game was a perfect example, the kroot had little to do because they can't hurt the WW's enough and the Broadsides would find it difficult to pop transports, Fire Warriors would've come in handy here because they can actually penetrate AV 10 and they have 30" Range which would've helped get the DA WS at the back of Woodbok's side of the board.

the weird one wrote:I really don't get this line. Decent armored enemy will assault after being seriously depleted by firepower - cheap kroot firepower included. What's more, if you charge Kroot, then his firepower units are still intact, which is the point of thing. And he may actually manage to win the combat with Kroot. And their cheap... expendable. Unlike decent armored unit, costing lot of points, dying on Kroot speed bump... or one consolidation away from this combat.

What Firepower? Oh you mean your S4 AP6 Firepower at BS3 yes? Kroot only work in units of 10 Carnivores and 5 Hounds so you're pumping 20 shots into a unit, 10 should hit and 5 should wound so you're killing 2 guys tops, Are you going to assault after you fired that gun? Thought not.

the weird one wrote:

Yet again, the whole board isnt going to be a forest, Ruins are the ideal terrain at tournaments, Kroot really are not a threat when they go up against MEQ units with more than 1 attack because no matter what you say they will die. sure GtG in forest cover will give you a 2+ cover, but you said you were going to shoot them with your guns? your points don't add up.

Since we manage good and properly gentle yet intense discussion, let's cease it here... and continue via PM. Await crippling argumentation!

<fake message, sorry>