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I'm guessing that if Grotsnik switches on his PK, he strikes last, wounds on a 4+ with a re-roll, ignores saves and inflicts ID on T≤4? And if he switches it off, he strikes in I order and gets +1A for Slugga and CCW?

The rules do not cover what to do if you have three different close combat weapons.

See the many, many debates on marneus calgar.

However, since you are no longer given the explicit option to turn off a special weapon (which was present in previous editions) it seems to be the consensus that if you have a special weapon then you use it.

Scott-S6 wrote:The rules do not cover what to do if you have three different close combat weapons.

See the many, many debates on marneus calgar.

While they do not cover how to handle 3 CCWs, they do Cover how to handle 2 different Specials(I m not including into the following the "never getting 2CCW bonus attack" portion):

Lindsay That will never Happen. Grotsnik uses either the Power Klaw, or the 'Urty Sirynge, never both at the same time and definitely never combining all the effects of both.

Your Choices are:

A) Strike at Initiative, wounding on a 4+ with a re-roll against T4 or less enemies(T5 or less during a Charge), with Saves allowed.

or

B) Strike at I1, with a Str 8(9 on the Charge) and denying Armor saves.

P.S. Scott: 'Urty Sirynge and PK are both Special weapons, so the option to use one or the other is there(and itself denies 2CCW bonus attacks regardless of any other weapons available).

That's what I just said. We will get someone coming in with the "if you've got more than 2 CCW you just pick any two of them to use" argument though....


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lindsay40k wrote:gets +1A for Slugga and CCW?

FYI - Grotsnik doesn't have a CCW - just the Klaw and the Syringe.

D'oh, I get it now, I was coming at things from a Tyranid 'upgrades to melee attacks' background that ignores the usual rules for this sort of thing

I know this is an old thread and sorry to raise the dead, but I was searching for this topic specifically concerning grotsnik and how his urty Syringe mechanic works because I am interested in fielding him in my first ork Army.

Just today I asked a GW employee this question and he explained the Urty Syringe as being like a buff/Poison on a weapon, not a weapon in and of itself. He considered it a CCW enhancement so to say.

So Grotsnik would get 5PK(4 attacks and 2 CCW's = +1) at I1, if any of them wound with a 4+ then instant wound unless invulnerable/FNP save. He explained the intended usage is that urty syringes are intended as a monster killer.

I am totally new at this game so I am just taking his word on it, but it seems to vary hugely from what you guys are saying.

Grots R OP wrote:Just today I asked a GW employee this question and he explained the Urty Syringe as being like a buff/Poison on a weapon, not a weapon in and of itself.

Proving that working for GW doesn't guarantee that someone actually knows the rules.

The 'urty Syringe is a Poisoned Weapon.

True enough, but the guy has been playing for 16 years so that's why I am asking. Also I made an edit not ID but unsavable wound is what I meant. Sorry still learning the lingo a bit.

Welcome to 40K and the Orks!

You'll find that a fair number of rules are somewhat vaguely written and open to interpretation. The writers are only human, after all.

In this case, the rules as written are pretty clear, as I realised over the course of the thread: "An 'Urty Syringe is a Poisoned Weapon..." Ork Codex, pg38

Grots R OP wrote:True enough, but the guy has been playing for 16 years so that's why I am asking.

You'll find that long-time vets are often just as likely (if not more so) to get the rules wrong as newbies. There are a lot of rules in this game, and they change every few years.

In this particular case, experience is no match for just looking at the rules for the 'urty Syringe.

Yep, I know orks are not his main either. The urty syringe buff rule sort of sounded wrong tbh that's why I was searching here. BTW thanks for the replies this site is pretty friggin cool.

So if I get it right:

At beginning of Ork CC round, Grotsnik would choose Syring or PK to strike with.

Syringe comes in at initiative 3 vs 1 for the PK as normal.

In a normal combat round grotsnik could strike 4 times with either weapon but not both.

He gets 4 attacks as listed in his A column, but not the extra 5th attack because he has two specialty weapons and that rule over rides the Slugga he is toting that would otherwise grant him a 5th attack.

Amirite?

if he uses one of the weps the slugga is still just chilling there on him so he would get the bonus attack it dosent say only 2 close combat attacks also
he has 3 close combat weapons so he would get the bonus regardless of witch he chooses L

Pretty much, yeah. The only debatable part is whether or not he can gain the +1 for two weapons from his slugga... you'll find that people are actually a bit divided on that one.

Best option (at least until GW get around to clarifying how two special weapons work when the model has more than 2 weapons total) is to just confirm with your opponent before the game how it will be played.

Personally, I'm inclined to go with the model being allowed to choose which of the weapons he is using that round and basing bonus attacks on that, as I strongly suspect that this is the way that GW will rule it (if they ever do) since the hardline RAW stance suggested in this thread renders Marneus Calgar's twin powerfists largely pointless.

OK I can see the problem you are talking about now, for the SM Character Marneus you are talking about it would in fact render the twin fists pointless, at the same time it also nerfs snikrot if you allow him to use both and snikrot can't. Seems unfair at that point.

Oddly enough, allowing the SM character to use both and giving snikro that "Poison Buff" BUT NOTthe extra attack seems to be In the spirit of the game I would think. It's always better to give out appropriate buffs than to nerf anything in gaming. Nerfing things makes everyone mad, especially when it comes to boss characters who are supposed to be Uber-powerful.

Grots R OP wrote:OK I can see the problem you are talking about now, for the SM Character Marneus you are talking about it would in fact render the twin fists pointless, at the same time it also nerfs snikrot if you allow him to use both and snikrot can't. Seems unfair at that point.

Just to clarify here, under either interpretation, Snikrot can't use the klaw and the syringe. The argument is over whether or not he should be able to use the syringe and slugga or the klaw and slugga, or if having the klaw and syringe stops him rom receiving the bonus from the slugga (which is the commonly perceived RAW).

The side-issue for Marneus is that some players argue that the Gauntlets don't count as two weapons anyway, so it's (to them) not actually an issue.

My take on this isn't strictly RAW, it's just my opinion on how I think GW are likely to rule on it if they ever do.

Snikrot = Kommando upgrade

Grotsnik = Mad Dok

Got it. So the question is Does he store the claw in his Backpack and pick up the Slugga and get +1" or "Put the syringe in his hip pocket and then grab the slugga and get +1 attack".

I was going to say "it's pretty obvious under RAW that since he has two special weapons he would not get the +1 bonus."

You get a choice:

1. Attack at at I3 syringe @ 4-Syringe.
OR
2. Attack at I1 @_PK

You choose.

But then I looked at the picture in codex of grotsnik.

Clearly he can swing the PK and then pull the slugga trigger. Likewise he could poke you with syringe and pull the trigger. In the PK case, the slugga is "just a distraction that allows the PK to hit you better"-resulting in 5 attacks. And in the syringe case, the slugga blows a hole in you at short range-which allows the "missed" syringe poke's poison to seep into the wound-so +1.

Yep subjective indeed.

Kommissar Kel wrote:P.S. Scott: 'Urty Sirynge and PK are both Special weapons, so the option to use one or the other is there(and itself denies 2CCW bonus attacks regardless of any other weapons available).

But only if you are using 2 special CCW's

The BRB tells us that we can use up to two CCW's (P.37) "Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit"

P.42 covers this as well "Fighting with two single-handed weapons"

Only if you are using "Two different special weapons" then you follow the rules for "Two different special weapons"

"Two different special weapons when it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus for using two..."

If you are not using Two different special weapons, then you do not use the rules for Two different special weapons.

Remember the section says "Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations."

So you use the rules for the combination you are using.

Again this goes back to you cannot "use" 2 different SCCWs, becdause the rule tells you to choose 1 SCCW and use only it, and the rules for which weapons you "use" are based on which weapons combinations from the list you are equipped with.

You only ever have an option as to which weapon you Use, when you are equipped with more than 1 SCCW, and being equipped with 2 different Specials means that you must choose 1 to use and can never gain the benefit of having 2 CCWS(Special or otherwise).

Also the only way that grotsnik would be able to gain a bonus attack with one of his specials(if it were ever ruled to be the way your camp claims) is when using the Syringe and Slugga because his other special is a Power klaw(which is a Power fist), and that can only ever gain the bonus from a second Power klaw. Which is better, 5 savable attacks that wound on a 4+(and get a re-roll vs T4 or <, or 4 unsaveable attacks that wound most things on a 2+(and cause ID vs T4 or <? Also the power Klaw Denies FNP, the Syringe does not.

Hmm a decent resolution to this problem would be this:

The weapon you first attack with is the weapon you equip. You must use this weapon for the remainder of combat and cannot switch weapons until combat is resolved. You de-equip the other sccw which gives you a bonus attack.

Not codex but fair.(hey I'm a noob to wh40k but I have artwork from monster manual 2 tattoeed on my body and I can kick your ass at donkey kong).

They tell you to choose 1 SCCW of the two you are USING.

if you are not using Two different special weapons those rules do not apply.(They even go on to say that "Such is the penalty for wielding two different special weapons" So clearly if you are not wielding two different special weapons, you do not use the rules for such).

Equipped has nothing to do with the rules for using Two different special weapons.

Remember "Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use"

Two is a subset of three. so if you have three CCW's you have three sets of two CCW's. If you have the different sets of two, you must chose two weapons to use since (P.37) "Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit"

Pick two weapons to use, look up the rules for what you are using, and go from there.

Clearly they meant for Clagar to have 2 Power fists and a power sword and with 2 Power Fists clearly grant 1 bonis attack, since he only has two hands and can only wield two weapons. However the rules could have been more clear.

if it's not in your hand and it's not equipped it's not usable. two pk'z not an option so immovable object vs irresistable force not valid.

You wouldnt choose 2 because no benefit.

You choose one, stick w it till combat resolved.

Get bonus attack. +1

Buff not nerf.

Your american english confuses the brits and they will never understand wtf you are saying

buff don't nerf-makes people happy.

Whose my camp? Orks? yes.

I'm from Ohio, where you from Git?

DeathReaper wrote:They tell you to choose 1 SCCW of the two you are USING.

if you are not using Two different special weapons those rules do not apply.(They even go on to say that "Such is the penalty for wielding two different special weapons" So clearly if you are not wielding two different special weapons, you do not use the rules for such).

No they do not.

They tell you to choose which weapon to use in the 2 different SCCW rules.

Now I know what you are going to say: "but the paragraph under Fighting with 2 single handed weapons says the rules for the weapons "using"" To whit I will again reply: "no it does not, It says that "the models may be equipped with two weapons that they can use"."

Equipped has nothing to do with the rules for using Two different special weapons.

Remember "Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use"

Two is a subset of three. so if you have three CCW's you have three sets of two CCW's. If you have the different sets of two, you must chose two weapons to use since (P.37) "Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit"

Pick two weapons to use, look up the rules for what you are using, and go from there.

Equipped has everything to do with it; you really should have put the rest of the quote from page 42, it adds to context: "Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, [b]with the rules given below for the different possible combinations."

You are equipped with 2(or more) single-handed CCWs, you then run through the list, you see that there are no rules for choice in combinations excepting the 2 different, which is not even a combination: you choose exactly 1.

Ad the first paragraph and being equipped with 2 single handed CCWs allow for the rules for use, then you get down to how the 2 different SCCW equipped models, you then must choose which to use(you can never use 2 different, says so in the rule so you cannot choose to use 2 different and the be told by the rules for 2 different that you cannot use 2 different).

But we can go further into that, when you have the choice (have 2 different Specials); the rule for the choice specifically says you choose 1 and never gain a bonus for a second.

You have no choice when equipped with 2, 3, 5, or 1000 Normal close combat weapons or normals and a single special; you do have a choice when you have 2 or more different special CCWs; and that choice then prevents you from ever gaining a bonus attack.

If you seem to think that you can choose which 2 weapons to use in any given circumstance; would you argue that you can again "Turn Off" a power fist should you be equipped with Bolt pistol, Power fist, and Chainsword; using the Bolt pistol and Chainsword? Or would you follow the rules for being equipped with a Normal and a Special, and always use the special?

Yes let's look at page 37 again shall we?

"Models with two single-handed weapons(snip) get an extra attack"

"with", not "using"; with, as in "having", "possessing", or "equipped with"

Then the part you quoted: "Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit" the choice to use just the 2 normals, or a normal and a single special(which is never granted permission for) certainly sounds like an additional benefit, especially when we go back to that old "never gaining a bonus attack" when the choice is permitted.

Clearly they meant for Clagar to have 2 Power fists and a power sword and with 2 Power Fists clearly grant 1 bonis attack, since he only has two hands and can only wield two weapons. However the rules could have been more clear.

I am not going to get into calgar.


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Grots R OP wrote:if it's not in your hand and it's not equipped it's not usable. two pk'z not an option so immovable object vs irresistable force not valid.

You wouldnt choose 2 because no benefit.

You choose one, stick w it till combat resolved.

Get bonus attack. +1

Buff not nerf.

Your american english confuses the brits and they will never understand wtf you are saying

buff don't nerf-makes people happy.

Whose my camp? Orks? yes.

I'm from Ohio, where you from Git?

"equipped" is to have on your person available for use, not holding in your hand. A Marine(USMC) in full combat kit is "equipped" with a Personal side arm, combat knife, M16, several grenades, and sometimes a few Claymores, this does not mean that said marine has every weapon in his hands; merely on his person.

Also both DR and myself are Americans(that is why we have the American flag next to our names)

I am from Cleveland, Ohio(PM if you can make it to the east side for a game, should you be in the area).

Kommissar Kel wrote:No they do not.

They tell you to choose which weapon to use in the 2 different SCCW rules.

Now I know what you are going to say: "but the paragraph under Fighting with 2 single handed weapons says the rules for the weapons "using"" To whit I will again reply: "no it does not, It says that "the models may be equipped with two weapons that they can use"."

you don't even look at the 2 different SCCW rules, unless you are equipped with, and using 2 different SCCW.

Remember they are equipped with 2 weapons they can use, and they never get the bonus for using 2 SCCW's. This says you have to have them equipped and be using them in CC.

The rules for 2 SCCW's make it clear you have to be using/wielding them for you not to gain the bonus attack. A Power sword that is magclamped onto your waist has no bearing on a combat in which you are using 2 Power Fists.

No, as I have said tie and agauin; you look at 2 different SCCWs when you are equipped with them, in order to see what weapon you use.

Having 2 different specials means you never get a bonus.

The 2 different Specials rule makes it very clear that you can only ever use 1; You cannot wield 2, so you cannot gain a bonus from wielding 2

You are getting caught up in the parenthetical discussing the wielding of "too many complex weapons" the sentence before it tells you they never gain a bonus for using 2 weapons. Not 2 specials, 2 weapons. If you are equipped with 2 different Specials, 1 extra of one of the 2 different specials and 2 normals, the only rule that gives you a choice in weapon used states you never gain a bonus for 2 of any weapons(Normal-normal, Normal-special, nor Special-special).

Look at that again in the context of the paragraph.

You never gain a bonus for using 2 weapons is listed iunder the Fighting with 2 SCCW's section, so only applies when you are actually fighting with 2 SCCW's

It does not apply when fighting with 2 of the same special weapon, or any of the others listed there.

Kommissar Kel wrote:The 2 different Specials rule makes it very clear that you can only ever use 1; You cannot wield 2, so you cannot gain a bonus from wielding 2.

You can wield two, in fact when you are wielding two you have to chose which one to attack with.

Again you are misapplying the "Use" in fighting with 2 weapons; the model is equipped with 2 weapons you may use with the following rules, does not mean that you may use any of the following rules for the 2 weapons you are using, it is look at what you are equipped with and the following rules are applied for what you use. Then there is only 1 of those following rules that allow for any choice in weapons used: 2 Different Specials.

The entirety of the 2 different Special CCWS is that you Never Use 2 different specials, you always must choose 1 of the 2 specials to use; and when you have that choice(by being equipped with 2 different specials) you may never gain the 2-weapon bonus attack for using 2 weapons(of any sort)

If you are applying "wield" to mean "equipped with"(since you admit here that you are only {i]using[/i] 1 to attack with), then my point remains valid: you are equipped with 2 and thus no matter what weapons you choose to use(in the fantasy that you can choose more than 1 weapon to use): you never gain a bonus attack.

P.S. Totally forgot to address the Context of the paragraph:

The context is exactly as stated:

-Have 2 different special CCWS
-Choose 1 weapon to use
-never gain any bonus attack for a second weapon

Second Edit: just fixed some unnecessary shouting to Italic-Bold instead of Bold-caps; no reason to get hostile.

I am not misapplying the "Use" in fighting with 2 weapons, you are.

You use the rules for the 2 weapon combination you are using.

Use means Wield. look at the fighting with 2SCCW's

Remember the () that says (Such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons)

That says that if you are not wielding 2 SCCW's then you do not follow those rules.

DeathReaper wrote:I am not misapplying the "Use" in fighting with 2 weapons, you are.

You use the rules for the 2 weapon combination you are using.

That is not what the rule says; read it again:

Fighting with two single-handed weapons wrote:Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations.

Lets break down this sentence:
Q: What can you do?
A: Use 2 single-handed weapons that you are equipped with.
Q: How can you use them?
A: with the rules given below for different combinations.
Q: What are they?
A: 2 Single-handed weapons that the model is equipped with.

DeathReaper wrote:Use means Wield. look at the fighting with 2SCCW's

Remember the () that says (Such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons)

That says that if you are not wielding 2 SCCW's then you do not follow those rules.

That logic means that the 2 different CCW rules never ever come into play.

What you are saying is that the rules are saying this this:
When you are using/wielding 2 different SCCWs, you must choose 1 to use/Wield(editorial: well now you are not using/wielding 2 SCCWs now are you?), and will never gain the bonus attack for using(wielding) a second CCW(editorial: That you are not using/wielding to begin with anyways, since you had to choose only 1 to use/wield at the beginning of the sentence).

This is all wrong, the rules are based on what you are equipped with(since the rule itself says you choose which weapon to actually use, and you are only choosing to use 1 weapon).

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Lets break down this sentence:
Q: What can you do?
A: Use 2 single-handed weapons that you are equipped with.
Q: How can you use them?
A: with the rules given below for different combinations.
Q: What are they?
A: 2 Single-handed weapons that the model is equipped with.

Which 2 Single-handed weapons that the model is equipped with if you have 3 or more? The rules really do not cover it. The only real way to handle it is to pick 2 weapons and look up the rules for the two you are using.

But it is clearly something that will only be settled with an FaQ.

One that they will rule that you gain the bonus attack if you are using two of the same special weapon, even if you have a power sword as well. (Like Calgar).