Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yeah. It's a stupid beardy cheese thing, but the RAW doesn't seem to go either way. What do you think?

A unit with Descent of Angels deep strikes using jump packs. An attached independent character has terminator armor. How many d6" do they scatter?

My vote goes to 2d6".

The GW FAQ says a unit deepstriking by any other means than a jump pack cannot use this rule, but it could be said that the unit is still using jump packs.

When an independent character joins a unit, it might
have different special rules from those of the unit.
Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn'
special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred
upon the character, and the character's special rules
are not conferred upon the unit. In some cases
though, the independent character or the unit may
lose their special rules as a result of the character
joining the unit. For example, if an independent
character without the 'infiltrate' special rule joins a
unit of infiltrators during deployment, the unit
cannot infiltrate (see the Universal Special Rules
section for more details).

The IC in termi armor does not have the DoA rule, thus it cannot use it to deepstrike.

Unless I've missed something, they would scatter the full 2d6.

There are several other threads about this very thing. The IC doesn't gain Descent of Angels, but the unit doesn't lose it either.

I brought up something similar in joining Astorath to a unit of DC and using Skies of Blood to deep-strike out of a Stormraven. I think the concesus was that since the entire unit doesn't have the special rule (and Descent of Angels describes units with the rule), that they cannot use it.

puma713 wrote:There are several other threads about this very thing. The IC doesn't gain Descent of Angels, but the unit doesn't lose it either.

I brought up something similar in joining Astorath to a unit of DC and using Skies of Blood to deep-strike out of a Stormraven. I think the concesus was that since the entire unit doesn't have the special rule (and Descent of Angels describes units with the rule), that they cannot use it.

Every Blood Angel with a jump pack gets DOA, so if Astorath and the DC both have jump packs you're fine. Or did you mean dropping the DC without them? (ouch)

-edit
the idea of a terminator being able to deepstrike with a jump pack unit is broken anyway - nevermind if they have DOA. Termies aren't dropping from the sky and jump pack troopers don't teleport so I don't even think you can attempt this, though granted I don't know where to point that out.

If you read the original post, he's talking about an IC with terminator armor. Terminators don't have jump packs, they teleport in.

Also, all of the ICs with packs in the BA codex have the DoA rule in their special rules sections. The only notable exceptions are the HQ choices that can take JPs as an upgrades, which are granted DoA via a very specific line in the wargear section.

It's also worth noting that this exact situation was also clarified in the FAQ:

Q: If a unit with the Descent of Angels rule Deep Strikes
via a transport, teleport or means other than by jump pack,
can the Descent of Angels rule still be used? (p23)
A: No.

WanderingFox wrote:It's also worth noting that this exact situation was also clarified in the FAQ:

That doesn't really answer the OP's question as he's asking about a unit where some models have DoA, others don't.

Personally I wouldn't try it before an errata or FAQ says it's legit - DoA is conferred on the individual model by having a Jump Pack, but it's used by the unit. IMO that sounds like all models should have it in order for the unit to use it.

If the entire unit does not have DoA then the unit does not have DoA. I fail to see how that's confusing The FAQ states that if a unit that has DoA deepstrikes by any other means (ie being forced to by not all having the DoA special rule) then they don't get to use said rule.

This kind of thing is clearly described in the BRB:

When an independent character joins a unit, it might
have different special rules from those of the unit.
Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn'
special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred
upon the .character, and the character's special rules
are not conferred upon the unit. In some cases
though, the independent character or the unit may
lose their special rules as a result of the character
joining the unit. For example, if an independent
charader without the 'infiltrate' special rule joins a
unit of infiltrators during deployment, the unit
cannot infiltrate (see the Universal Special Rules
sedion for more details).

If we go to the USR section of the BRB, it states several rules marked with an * are lost if both the IC and the unit do not have them. Every single one of those rules is worded exactly like DoA "the unit..." compared to all the others which are worded "the models..."

This allows us to infer that a rule that effects the unit must be included on all of the models of said unit.

If this gets FAQ'd or someone can disprove that then I'll gladly eat my words and stand corrected, but from the way everything is worded at current my argument is valid

Brotherjulian wrote:Or did you mean dropping the DC without them? (ouch)

Yes. It's what I ran for 'Ard Boyz. Astorath + 10 DC w/Power Weapons in a Stormraven. With a Death Company Dread in the rear hangars.

WanderingFox wrote:If the entire unit does not have DoA then the unit does not have DoA.

This is widely accepted, but not actually anywhere in the rules. It doesn't say anywhere that if an "entire" unit doesn't have a special rule, then the unit doesn't have the rule. If you have 1 meltagunner in a unit, is it a unit equipped with a meltagun? You don't have to have all 10 equipped with meltaguns to say that, yes, it is a unit equipped with a meltagun. Or Defensive Grenades. If an attached IC has Defensive Grenades, then you are assaulting a unit "equipped with defensive grenades".

So, while what you're saying is the accepted reading of the rules, it's not actually outlined by the rules.

WanderingFox wrote:This kind of thing is clearly described in the BRB:

When an independent character joins a unit, it might
have different special rules from those of the unit.
Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn'
special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred
upon the .character, and the character's special rules
are not conferred upon the unit. In some cases
though, the independent character or the unit may
lose their special rules as a result of the character
joining the unit. For example, if an independent
charader without the 'infiltrate' special rule joins a
unit of infiltrators during deployment, the unit
cannot infiltrate (see the Universal Special Rules
sedion for more details).

If we go to the USR section of the BRB, it states several rules marked with an * are lost if both the IC and the unit do not have them. Every single one of those rules is worded exactly like DoA "the unit..." compared to all the others which are worded "the models..."

This allows us to infer that a rule that effects the unit must be included on all of the models of said unit.

So, you're inferring meaning of a non-USR Special Rule by looking at the USRs? This is a special rule that is not conferred onto the IC, nor is it lost by the unit. It is not a USR, so it does not get treated like one. This concept of an IC having a non-USR and a unit not having it are new concepts, for the most part, and people are having trouble wrapping their head around it. DoA is not a USR. Do not treat it like one or try to infer rules from something that it isn't.

WanderingFox wrote:If this gets FAQ'd or someone can disprove that then I'll gladly eat my words and stand corrected, but from the way everything is worded at current my argument is valid

Your argument needs a small shift for me to agree with you. The unit doesn't lose DoA, but it may not use DoA. Since DoA refers to the "unit" using the rule, and the entire unit doesn't have the rule, then the rule may not be invoked. It is not a unit of 10 Jump Packs and a Terminator, all without DoA. It is a unit of 10 Jump Packs with DoA and 1 Terminator without it, so, therefore, they cannot choose to use it.

I was clarifying the definition of "unit" vs "model" not necessarily stating that DoA was a USR. It's obviously not.

What I was getting at is that DoA uses the exact same wording as the USRs that are prevented from functioning by an IC that does not have them in a unit that does. As such, we can assume that when the wording 'unit' is used it is referring to the entire unit as a whole. You'll notice that any time that the something works for partial units they are referred to by the word 'model' not 'unit'

I will agree completely that it is not RAW that it functions as such, it is however fairly clear that it is RAI.