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I know this sounds cheesy, but if you look under the sanguine sword psychic power in the blood angels codex. It never actually says that it ever ends. So this power only needs to be cast once, then lasts for the rest of the game?

I can't imagine that playing it that way will make you many friends though.

You know technically you are right, but I don't think your going to have many friends to play with if you use this.

Edit: Beat me to it Scott

While it may not say that it ends, the person using the power is under the obligation to point out where it says it continues beyond the turn. If you can't point out where it says it continues beyond the turn the psychic test is passed, then it only lasts for the duration of the close combat attacks.

The reason for that is listed in the main book page 50, end of the first paragraph, "Exceptions to these rules are covered in the Codexes." As there is no exception given that sanguine sword lasts longer than the turn, it does not.

Lone Dragoon wrote:While it may not say that it ends, the person using the power is under the obligation to point out where it says it continues beyond the turn. If you can't point out where it says it continues beyond the turn the psychic test is passed, then it only lasts for the duration of the close combat attacks.

The reason for that is listed in the main book page 50, end of the first paragraph, "Exceptions to these rules are covered in the Codexes." As there is no exception given that sanguine sword lasts longer than the turn, it does not.

Where in the general psyker rules does it state that the default duration of a power is one phase?

RAW no it does not end

RAI the power references the assault phase and then talks about attacks being made at S10. It's obviously implied that you need to test for it each assault phase you want to use it.

While not official rules, the INAT supports this idea as well, so unless you want to be TFG I'd honestly just go with retesting each assault phase you want to use it on.

Scott-S6 wrote:Where in the general psyker rules does it state that the default duration of a power is one phase?

It doesn't specifically say the default duration of a power is one phase. However it does specifically say that psykers are allowed one power per turn (Which as we all know means player turn). Thus to use Sanguine sword turn one, and a different power in a second turn means that he is no longer under the effects of the sanguine sword since sanguine sword does not specifically state how long it lasts. The rule has to say that if it is used on a turn, it carries over to another turn. It's another of those, it doesn't say I can't do it arguments. Since those arguments aren't valid rules arguments we have to go with the next rule which is one psychic power per turn.

The problem is you're going on a, it doesn't say when it ends so it doesn't end argument. I'm going on a it doesn't say when it ends, so it carries to the end of the turn because psykers are allowed one power per turn. The argument can further be extrapolated to be, the librarian cannot be under the affects of 2 psychic powers the model itself casts on the next player turn unless he has a rule (an epistolary upgrade, or a power that lasts until the end of the next player turn for example) that allows it to.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

It doesn't specifically say the default duration of a power is one phase. However it does specifically say that psykers are allowed one power per turn (Which as we all know means player turn). Thus to use Sanguine sword turn one, and a different power in a second turn means that he is no longer under the effects of the sanguine sword since sanguine sword does not specifically state how long it lasts. The rule has to say that if it is used on a turn, it carries over to another turn. It's another of those, it doesn't say I can't do it arguments. Since those arguments aren't valid rules arguments we have to go with the next rule which is one psychic power per turn.

The problem is you're going on a, it doesn't say when it ends so it doesn't end argument. I'm going on a it doesn't say when it ends, so it carries to the end of the turn because psykers are allowed one power per turn. The argument can further be extrapolated to be, the librarian cannot be under the affects of 2 psychic powers the model itself casts on the next player turn unless he has a rule (an epistolary upgrade, or a power that lasts until the end of the next player turn for example) that allows it to.

None of what you wrote is true, except for the "it does specifically say that psykers are allowed one power per turn (Which as we all know means player turn)" and the "It doesn't specifically say the default duration of a power is one phase."

A psyker may be under the effects of two powers at once. E.G. A Blood Angels Psyker with the epistolary upgrade(Allows 2 powers to be cast per turn) can use one power to cast Unleashed rage, and the second to cast Sanguine sword. He would have prefered enemy, from unleashed rage, and S10 attacks, from sanguine sword.

The issue with Sanguine Sword is that all the other powers available to a blood angel Psyker are either a PSA, or say that they end at the phase, or, in the case of Might of Heroes, says that they get +D3 attacks that assault phase.

So how it reads, based on the other powers readings, you cast it once, and it lasts all game.

My entire argument boils down to one thing in the end. Point out where it specifically says that the sanguine sword lasts for the rest of the game after being cast once. That is the ONLY way that it would be allowed to stay all game. There are numerous rules, wargear, and abilities that state whether or not they work all game.

Death leaper's "it's after me" rule, Njal Stormcaller's Lord of Tempest's rule, The Sanguinor's blessing (from the very same book that the rule in question is from!!) all specifically state they either last until the model is dead, as long as the model is alive, or for the remainder of the game. Those are an example of rules that last for the entire game, now show where it says that the Sanguine sword lasts until the model is dead, or for the duration of the game and then RAW it would last that long.

Until that can be definitively proven we have to go with the rule of one psychic power per turn. Which indicates not only the number of powers per turn, but it also CAN, depending on how one chooses to interpret the sentence, indicate how long the powers last. In other words, one turn.

How can someone possibly interpret it to mean that? I'll show it, it hinges on the word use. The psyker can use one power per turn. Does it mean he can activate two powers? No, it means he can activate one per turn. Does it mean that he can be under the affects of two powers? Here's the rub, because of the word use. Use can mean activate, but it also means to make use of. In other words to use a power could mean that if one carried over then technically the psyker could not make use of any additional power until the sanguine sword ended. The point I'm trying to make is that if the sanguine sword lasts until the end of the game, there are no other psychic powers the librarians can use (taking it to mean make use of rather than activate) during other turns.

Warhammer is a permissive ruleset. If the rules do not explicitly state something (such as a power ending) it doesn't.

Also your alternate reading of the psycher rules, while highly creative , is not correct. There are situations where a single psycher can be under the effects of multiple psychic powers while still only be able to cast one himself. For example, 2 librarians within the same unit. One may cast unleash rage while the other can cast might of heroes. By your reading of the rules, that would not be allowed since one of the librarians would be 'making use of' multiple psychic powers even if he did not cast it himself.

RAW Sanguine sword does not specify an end condition, thus it does not end. This is clearly an oversight by considering how all of the other powers are written so RAI is that it ends at the end of that assault phase.

I'm not disagreeing with you in principle, it should only last until the end of the phase. However, there is nothing in the rules that states that, hence why most other psychic powers explicitly state end conditions. It's an obvious oversight, but due to that oversight it can be read, and rightly so, as meaning that the power does not end.

WanderingFox wrote:Warhammer is a permissive ruleset. If the rules do not explicitly state something (such as a power ending) it doesn't.

Yes, it is a permissive ruleset. Keep in mind what that means, it means you have to have permission to be able to do something. Ask the question, do you have permission to have the power affect you all game from a single activation?

Just one side note, if you'll notice I said that a librarian cannot be under the effects of 2 powers that it casts unless it has permission, and I gave a couple of examples. I didn't say it couldn't be under the effects of 2 powers.

Yes, however that's not how it's phrased in the rulebook.

It says, and I quote, "Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn."

Using your wording it would be:

"Psykers can make use of one psychic power per player turn."

Being a permissive rule set, that would mean that a psycher can only ever gain the benefits of a single psychic power, be it theirs or someone else. Since this is obviously untrue, your interpretation of the wording is wrong. In other words, a psycher who was under the effects of unleash rage, a psychic power, could not also benefit from something like might of heroes, also a psychic power.

Thus, since part of your logic is no longer sound, the whole theory is no longer sound

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you in a practical sense here. It should only last a single phase, but the rules as written do not state it as such.

Lone Dragoon wrote:My entire argument boils down to one thing in the end. Point out where it specifically says that the sanguine sword lasts for the rest of the game after being cast once.

Page 50 BRB. This gives Psykers the ability to cast Psychic powers.

Once a power is in effect it lasts as long the power specifies, in most cases (In the Blood Angel Book) they are either Instant (PSA's) or the last til the end of the current phase.

Sanguine sword does not specify when it ends, so RaW once cast it does not end.

A power last until it tells you when it ends. PSA, happen instantly, as it is a shooting effect. Others tell you which phase they end in. The Sang Sword does not tell you when it ends, and therefor does not end by RAW.

Note, as a Blood Angels player, I have never tried this, and I have know of this loop hole for a while. Also, this question came up shortly after the Codex came out, and GW did not address it.

Lone Dragoon wrote:Thus to use Sanguine sword turn one, and a different power in a second turn means that he is no longer under the effects of the sanguine sword since sanguine sword does not specifically state how long it lasts.

There is no rules basis to support that.

The rules for psykers are that they get to USE one power a turn. If they used Sword last turn, that doesn't prevent power usae next turn.


RAW, it lasts indefinately, RAI it probably lasts a phase. Probably an ommission.