Some rumours on Vampire Counts (official pics added to first post)

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**Kroothawk**

14th January releases and US prices provided by a birdy

:

Official Preorder page: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440004a&rootCatGameStyle=wh

New:

Warhammer: Vampire Counts 96pp Full Colour Army Book ($41.25)
WBM: Vampire Counts 7 Large Format Spell Cards ($4.95)
Vampire Counts Coven Throne / Mortis Engine Plastic Box ($57.75)
Vampire Counts Black Knights / Hexwraiths 5 Fig PlasticBox ($29.75)
Vampire Counts Vargheists / Crypt Horrors 3 Fig Plastic Box ($47.00)
Vampire Counts Wight King 1 Plastic Fig Clampack ($13.25)
Isabella Von Carstein 1 Finecast Fig Clampack ($15.25)
Krell, Lord of Undeath 1 Finecast Fig Clampack ($18.25)
Winged Vampire Lord 1 Finecast Fig Clampack ($22.25)
Von Carstein Upgrade Pack 13 Piece Finecast Clamback ($19.75)

Finecast Recasts:

Coffin Lid Shields 8 Piece Pack ($13.25)
Heinrich Kemmler 1 Fig Clampack ($15.25)
Mannfred The Acolyte 1 Fig Clampack ($18.25)
Mounted Vampire Lord 1 Fig Clampack ($25.50)
Vampire Counts Bat Swarm 2 Base Clampack ($24.75)
Vampire Counts Black Coach 1 Fig Box ($53.75)
Vampire Counts Fell Bats 3 Fig Box ($49.50)
Vampire Counts Mounted Wight King 1 Fig Clampack ($25.50)
Vampire Counts Necromancer with Skull 1 Fig Clampack ($15.25)
Vampire Counts Necromancer with Staff 1 Fig Clampack ($15.25)
Vampire Counts Necromancer with Sword 1 Fig Clampack ($15.25)
Vampire Counts Spirit Host 1 Base Clampack ($18.25)
Vampire Lord on Abyssal Terror 1 Fig Box ($49.50)
Wight King Battle Standard Bearer 1 Fig Clampack ($18.25)

Repackaged Batallion (20 skeletons, 20 ghouls, 10 Dire Woves, 1 corpse cart, $115.00) on 18th February

Pictures:

Huan Qu'itt on Warseer collected some VC rumours hidden in the Empire and other threads. It's not much, but it's a start for a possible January release:

On release date:

Harry wrote:I said : I had VC, Empire and Dwarves in the frame.

ihavetoomuchminis wrote:And VC come in January. Believe it or not.

75hastings69 wrote:The WD VC article should be viewed as a stop gap between books, terrorgheist will be in proper print much quicker than some people may imagine

On Krell:

75hastings69 wrote:Wait till you see the other new vc stuff new krell anyone?

On flesh golems and plastic black coach:

Harry wrote:Yeah but you wouldn't say no to a plastic black coach and some flesh Golems would you.

Ah yes, I think Hastings mentioned the Flesh Golems.

I am quite exited about a new VC book
He did. The concept art for them is very cool. Half way between a big zombie and a ghoul with lots of stitching,
Note : The existence of concept art does not a mini make.

ps: Flesh Golems sound daft....

In fairness I am not sure that is what they are ... That phrase is just one that has been used in rumours here for years ... to describe an unknown big zombie like creature on a 40mm base.

Mirbeau wrote:Not Harry but... rotters, the lot of them. Well, with an exception.

ihavetoomuchminis wrote:About the Monstruous infantry unit, i've been told that they are more of Big ghouls than big zombies. Oh, and the models can have something no MI in the game have yet..... maybe something like the terrorgheist, but smaller? Don't know, just guessing.

I've realized that Maelstrom no longer has the VC battalion. Don't know if it's just a mistake, or a clue.

On Black Knights:

Bramgaunt wrote:One of my people mentioned that Black Knights would be 'held back' for a major release. My response was 'that's gonna take some time, I guess?', and he said 'you might be wrong.' That was back in July. He also mentioned a plastic set for undead/chaos trolls.

Okay, now I have a thread to link to from my rumour roundup

Edit 25th December:
Pics posted by ZAlpha over at Warseer:

ZAlpha wrote:Lore of the Vampires

Signature Spell is definitely Invocation of Nehek - on the most fundamental level it can restore "D6 + caster's Wizard level" of Wounds to friendly Undead unit within 6". Boosted version has 12" range, as well as 18" ones.

Other spells includes Raise Dead, Vanhel's Danse Macabre, Curse of Years, Gaze of Nagash, and Wind of Death

Lore attribute: When the spell from the Lore of the Vampires is succefully casted, the wizard or any undead models within 12" restores 1 wound.
Rules tidbits:

All Vampire has rule called "Hunger" - You get to roll a D6 when the vampire kills one or more models in combat, on a 6 you recovers one wound. (Vlad with Blood Drinker pass the roll on 4+)

Also Vampire, including vampiric creatures "such as" Varghulf and Vargheist, can march. So Vargheist will be able to move 20" per turn almost all the time. (not sure if Varghulf can also fly)

Vampiric Powers: (not all of them, just those mentioned in WD)
Flying Horror - give the vampire ability to fly (unsure)
Dread Knight - ability to boost WS (don't know how - but a Vampire Llord with Dread Knight has WS of 9)
Quickblood - gains ASF
Master of the Black Arts - get to re-roll one D6 for the Winds of Magic.
Dark Acolyte - add D3 to the total number of models raised by Nehek.
Red Fury - should be about the same. (unsure)

New units:

Coven Throne
- Basically a chariot mount for your Lord.
- Is a Large target with S5 T5 5W and 5+ save.
- has Spectral Steed rules (can move 8"), Undead, Vampiric, ASF (only for Handmaiden who has 2 S5 Attacks)
- has Random Attacks (2D6) at S3 from the spirit horde.
- Has Ward Save of 4+
- Battle of Wills (before the first enemy rolls to hit against the character or the Throne, both player roll a D6 and add their LD value. Has effects based on the difference of the score)
* no effect (0 or less)
* suffer -1WS/BS
* the enemy must re-roll successful To Hits
* each model in the enemy unit strike each other (only 1 attack per model)
- Has Bound Spell (lvl3) allowing the Throne (and all of its crew) to re-roll either To Hit or To Wound rolls.

Mortis Engine
- Is a Rare Choice
- Same stats as for the Throne (S5 T5 W5 Sv5+)
- has 2D6 attacks at S3 from the spirit horde
- Undead, Terror, Spectral Steed, and Regeneration
- can make Ghostly Howl attack.
- can take upgrade, allowing any wizards casting spell from the Lore of the Vampires to get +2 to their casting attempt. (ANY) miscast wizards rolls twice on the table and have the opponent choose the result)
- The Reliquary (at the start of your turn, roll 2D6 and add the current turn number - until the start of its next turn, all friendly Undead units within this number of range gains +1 bonus to their Regeneration, 6+ if they don't have any, to a maximum of 4+. Also, all enemy units within this range suffers D6 hits at the strength equal to the turn number.

- Also has some penalties if removed from play - by damaging every units within a random range at the strength equal to the current turn number)

Master Necromancer
- New Lord choice (ie. better Necromancer)

- Banshees and Cairn Wraith are now Hero

Hexwraiths (special)
- Fast Cavalry with Ethereal (yes!) that can inflict automatic S5 hits on unit that it moved through.

Vargheist (special)
- Flying Monstrous Infantry that has Fly, Frenzy, and 3A.

Crypt Horrors (special)
- Monstrous Infantry unit with M6 S4 T5 I2 W3 A3, has Poisoned Attacks, Regeneration 5+, and Undead.

I think that's all I've seen in the WD...

BTW, Heinrich Kemmler is back in finecast (and in the book) for sure. But on the original sculpt, no new miniature for him. (at least for now)

Seeing lots of people wondering if the Bloodline is back in the book.
Honestly, I'm not sure as it's not specifically mentioned rule-wise.

Skeletons....should be A LOT cheaper.
(40 Skellies with Full Command for less than 240 points. )

Crypt Ghouls... definitely a bit more expensive.

Zombies... even cheaper than the current one.

Fell Bats... cheaper.

Corpse Cart.... almost the same (but goes Special)

Black Knights.... cheaper.

Spirit Host... cheaper as well.

Varghulf... remains the same.

Dire Wolf....should be exactly the same.
(...)
Unit of 3 (2 Vargheist + 1 Vargoyle) is cheaper than 3 Great Eagles.
(...)
There's one list posted in WD, apparently no Vampire - only Kemmler (as Lord), Krell, and two Cairn Wraith.

Looking from the text in WD, I suppose...yes you can field a no-Vampire army. This is what the text says:

White Dwarf wrote:".....Master Necromancer allow players to field a high-level wizard without having to rely on a Vampire Lord to do so. In fact, they are perfectly capable of leading an Undead army on their own...."

You don't expect Ethereal Fast Cavalry to be that cheap, don't you?

Based on the demo list posted in WD, I think they may be almost as expensive as Dragon Princes of Caledor.

-Loki- wrote:Necromancers can take an upgrade called Master of the Dead. The only way to add models to a Skeleton unit raised with Raise Dead is with a Necromancer with Master of the Dead. This seems to be the benefit of zombies - if you raise skeletons, you need a Master of the Dead Necromancer to keep adding to the unit.

Ghouls are 10 points. A unit of 40 with a Ghast in one of the sample lists was 410 points.

Banner of the Blood Keep is one of the returning banners, and grants a 4+ ward save to shooting attacks.

There appear to be 3 different vampire types. Vampire lord, Vampire, Strigoi Ghoul King. This is mentioned in the new rules for Vampire Counts pacts for Storm of magic, they specifically name the lord choices you can take, and it is those 3 and Master Necromancer. They don't mention at all what makes a Strigoi Ghoul King different, though it might have something to do with Hatred and Poison, as Phil Kelly pointed out in the GW website Terrorgeist designers notes.

I also may be reading too much into it, but there's some hints towards Ghouls not being able to be reinforced through Invocation of Nehek. Don't quote me on this, it's not outright stated, just whenever they talk about raising models, Ghouls are the only unit not mentioned, as well as in the Lahmian sample list they say 'with 40 models, it ensures there will be enough left when they reach the enemy' or sometihng to that effect.

A Vampire Lord with death knight is WS 9. Looks like Vampire Lords are getting ridiculous stats again.

Master Necromancers can be the general. They specifically state this. It's possible to make an army completely lacking vampires.

They make a subtle mention about 'when the general dies, the army starts to crumble until another powerful character can regain control.' Seems like you can replace the general with a powerful Necromancer or other Vampire caster somehow if the general dies.

Avian wrote:The +2 to cast bonus only works for the Lore of Vampires, not any other Lore. The miscasting affects users of all Lores. In either case, it affects friends or foes within 12" of one or more Engines with the Tomes upgrade.

Over9000 wrote:Oh and direwolves count towards 25% core now
(...)
Seems to be, looking at white dwarf: They have some sample armies which dont add upto 25% unless counting wolves.
(...)
Btw the raise dead spell is now zombies/skels

Do we have any confirmations to point cost of Hexwraiths, or their stats?

30 pts s5 magic flaming
Blood knights are either 50 or 51 pts now
3 vargheists champ upgrade 148
horrors 38
knights 26 full kit

And spectral host? At last are core? How it much?

45pts ^.^ still special tho

Kyte wrote:So far I gather from various international, German and Danish forums that:

Bloodlines won't be back, but similar abilities as 6th ed bloodlines will be available through the new vampyric powers. Different powers will unlock different equipment and mount options.

New wraith cavalry will cause the same inter-forum whine as Ogre Mournfangs did, being essentially mounted one wound wraiths, easily the new power-gamer's unit of choice.

Skeletons will be the same price as the TK variety and have the same options at the same cost, except access to magic banner (varying statements on whether only one unit will be allowed magic banner or not)

Giant ghouls have T5. Otherwise same stats as a Rat Ogre.

One of the spirit-borne-thrones/engines/things gives 2+ to cast to ALL wizards within a range of (varying statements), not just your own wizards (commentary: will probably be a really fun model to both play and play against, as it offers whole new tactical aspects for both players to the game... Going to be a true hit among casual gamers like the Thundertusk, I gather).

Wraith and Banshee move to Hero Choices only.

Ixquic wrote:The Mortis Engine gives +2 to cast from the Lore of Vampires to all casters within 12" so you only have to worry about that working against you when you are playing against another Vampire. The problem is that same upgrade also causes you to roll twice on the miscast chart and your opponent picks the one that you take. It seems to me that will end up screwing you more than helping unless there's a way to single dice cast reliably in the new book.

Admiral_Wow wrote:GW website is no longer selling:

Vampire count battalion box
Vampire Counts Zacharias on Zombie Dragon
Blood Dragon with Great Weapon, Foot and Mounted
Vampire Counts Necromancer on Nightmare
Vampire Counts Spirit Host
Vampire Counts Black Coach
Vampire Counts Tomb Banshee 3

all items are no longer available.

Kemmler is confirmed to get a Finecast rerelease in January, A Black Coach Finecast recast also this month or later.

Harry wrote:I put in the OP that I had heard that there were 5 new units in the book ....
I guess that is Coven throne, Mortis Engine, Crypt Horrors, Vargheists and Hex wraiths ... so I guess that is your lot!

'Flesh Golem' was something Hastings heard as a rumour ages ago. I remember asking Gav Thorpe about it at the launch of 7th edition. I had also seen some concept art for Flesh Golems so when I heard monsterous infantry I assumed ....

**-Loki-**

Since VC are a more recent 7th edition book, my guess would be that they were worst hit by 8th edition, and this is a relatively easy fix.

Release the book adjusting some points values with a wave of new models they've had sitting around to get them actually released. The Zombie Dragon, Wraith, Banshee and Necromancer were probably done to see if there was still interest in the army to make this release worthwhile.

**kenshin620**

VC, now with undead monstrous infantry

**Mr.Malevolent**

I hope this is true. Never quite liked the last army book. Seems like Gav Thorpe just ran out of creativity near the end.

**-Loki-**

I think it's more Gav limited himself too much by focusing on the von Carsteins rather than the full spectrum of Vampire Counts fluff. Strigoi were reduced to a short story and a mention with the Vargulf, Blood Knights reduced to a rare unit, and the rest just in short stories.

He shouldn't have dropped the Bloodlines, basically.

**Mr.Malevolent**

Yeah. Although I like the "powers" section, kind of keeps it open for Vampire choices, if you know what I mean.
IMHO I think Von Carsteins make for some boring fluff, though it was cool to see a switch in theme for them. Not being so Bela Lugosi Dracula looking.

**ph34r**

Well I'm pumped. I'll definitely be in for Black Knights if they come out in plastic.

**Kurgash**

I guess this was the prize for winning Storm of Magic, having your faction book updated in 8th despite just being updated in 7th.

**snake**

Kurgash wrote:I guess this was the prize for winning Storm of Magic, having your faction book updated in 8th despite just being updated in 7th.

See, GW's "campaigns" do have an impact on the direction of the game

Now only if they'd do bloodlines again.

**Nagashek**

:sigh: Despite the fact that I PLAY VC, and despite the fact that I have been playing undead horde VC since 6th ed, and despite the horrific nerf to my style of play, having the VC out next would upset me beyond reason.

Dwarves, WE, and Brets need updates the most. Empire could use one soon too. Let VC wait, says I, despite VC being my first army (and most storied and feared in the local community). WE need serious love. Brets need serious love. Dwarves need... well, moderate love. (their WM are freaking tops this edition, but I am not looking forward to the loss of Runes, which I expect given the simplification of everyone else's Magic Items section...)

I suppose I could ALLOW VC if they came before Empire (whom I do not play: I mean, better an update for an army you play, right?) but I'd rather see them out after Brets or WE. But I mean, hey. Best to rerelease all the 7e army books first, just to make sure they are caught up before the 6e ones, right? Then of course, there will be 9th edition... :sigh:

**H.B.M.C.**

-Loki- wrote:I think it's more Gav limited himself too much by focusing on the von Carsteins rather than the full spectrum of Vampire Counts fluff. Strigoi were reduced to a short story and a mention with the Vargulf, Blood Knights reduced to a rare unit, and the rest just in short stories.

He shouldn't have dropped the Bloodlines, basically.

Kinda like what he did with 40K Chaos, right?

**Kanluwen**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
-Loki- wrote:I think it's more Gav limited himself too much by focusing on the von Carsteins rather than the full spectrum of Vampire Counts fluff. Strigoi were reduced to a short story and a mention with the Vargulf, Blood Knights reduced to a rare unit, and the rest just in short stories.

He shouldn't have dropped the Bloodlines, basically.

Kinda like what he did with 40K Chaos, right?

Keep beating that horse, HBMC. It ain't dead yet!

In all seriousness: Gav catches far too much flak for cleaning up others messes. Chaos and Vampires were some of the most ridiculously bloated and nonsensical books, and should have been given far more time to be worked upon.

**-Loki-**

Kanluwen wrote:In all seriousness: Gav catches far too much flak for cleaning up others messes. Chaos and Vampires were some of the most ridiculously bloated and nonsensical books, and should have been given far more time to be worked upon.

No arguments there. When I look at Alessios 6th edition book and Gavs 7th edition book, Alessios is a mess. He unfortunately spent too much time on the Bloodlines, and not much on the list itself. However, a balance between the two would have been nice compared to Warhammer Armies Von Carsteins.

**Kanluwen**

I didn't really mind "armies Von Carsteins" considering the fact that it was possible to make a close representation of the previous lists using the Powers and the unit entries themselves.

You want a Strigoi army?
Vampires with the "Ghoulkin", "Summon Ghouls" and "Summon Beasts" powers.
Take a large amount of Ghouls, large amount of Dire Wolves and the various Bats, and for rare slots use the Varghulf.

Wabam. That's a fantastically thematic Strigoi army there, all things considered. You'll be light on Magic, but Strigoi were anyways. Of course, now you can also take a Terrorgheist which is kinda nice.

Blood Dragons aren't too hard to do either. Focus on Skeleton Warriors, take a large amount of Black Knights and/or Grave Guard(Depending on if you want them to be a "Bretonnian Dragon" or not), and have your rare slots filled with Blood Knights. You can add in a few Necromancers, as Blood Dragons seemed to be less about the "Necromancers are dumb!" and more about the "I prefer to have my own undead servants, but why shouldn't I assemble a host of followers?" school of thought.

Lahmia would be hard to do, but that has everything to do with their ridiculous ability to take heroes from every other book out there.

Necrarchs wouldn't be hard to do, as they're simply magic heavy Vampires with cadres of Necromancer apprentices. Have lots of Zombies and lots of Skeletons, et voila!

The big thing I hope that they do is bring in Skeleton Bowmen or some kind of archer unit. Shooting is something I think they're missing, and would be an 'easy remedy' for some parts.

**kenshin620**

I dont know about archer skeles, its a defining feature for TK

Well of course unless you want to combine them back into Warhammer: Undead

Speaking of which, I wonder if Nagash would come back

It would also be interesting to see what other SC get in

**-Loki-**

I mostly want to see Zombies and Skeletons become worth taking. Ghouls are great, but they're not undead, and certainly don't fit my army theme, being Lahmians.

Zombies don't fit completely either, but the short story about Neferata mentions her using them as guards, so I use them anyway. But Ghouls are a no go for me.

**kenshin620**

-Loki- wrote:I mostly want to see Zombies and Skeletons become worth taking. Ghouls are great, but they're not undead, and certainly don't fit my army theme, being Lahmians.

Zombies don't fit completely either, but the short story about Neferata mentions her using them as guards, so I use them anyway. But Ghouls are a no go for me.

Well with the TK book to compare, I bet the skeles will be 4 points naked and Zombies will either be 2 or 3 points

**Kanluwen**

kenshin620 wrote:I dont know about archer skeles, its a defining feature for TK

No, it's really not. Chariots, constructs such as the Ushtabi, and the ability to cast magic without really casting magic are "defining features of Tomb Kings".
Archers aren't nearly as "defining" as you think they are.

It would also be interesting to see what other SC get in

Throwing out a few wild guesses...

The Red Duke, Master of Shadows, and lastly Heinrich Kemmler with his best friend forever Krell.

**-Loki-**

kenshin620 wrote:
-Loki- wrote:I mostly want to see Zombies and Skeletons become worth taking. Ghouls are great, but they're not undead, and certainly don't fit my army theme, being Lahmians.

Zombies don't fit completely either, but the short story about Neferata mentions her using them as guards, so I use them anyway. But Ghouls are a no go for me.

Well with the TK book to compare, I bet the skeles will be 4 points naked and Zombies will either be 2 or 3 points

I'd rather see zombies get a little tougher rather than just cheaper so they can more effectively tarpit without dying by the dozen every turn. I know they're meant to be a horde, but the amount you need in a unit right now to tarpit something is frankly ridiculous.

**Nagashek**

I DID like the idea of S2, T4 zombies... Or just giving them ASL like last edition.

**ph34r**

Kanluwen wrote:In all seriousness: Gav catches far too much flak for cleaning up others messes. Chaos and Vampires were some of the most ridiculously bloated and nonsensical books, and should have been given far more time to be worked upon.

No, he catches the right amount of flak. Just because a book has "too many options" does not make the solution "too few options" a good idea.

**Kanluwen**

ph34r wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:In all seriousness: Gav catches far too much flak for cleaning up others messes. Chaos and Vampires were some of the most ridiculously bloated and nonsensical books, and should have been given far more time to be worked upon.
No, he catches the right amount of flak. Just because a book has "too many options" does not make the solution "too few options" a good idea.

I didn't say "too few options" is a good idea, but it's not like the book was really that broken prior to this most recent edition. It's only when Ghouls suddenly became so incredibly worth their points that you really see the "too few options" argument coming up.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should also like to add: Page 79 of Alessio's Vampire Counts army book. Right there, in black and white, under the Blood Dragons army list:
Skeleton Bowmen.

**H.B.M.C.**

I tried to take it to PM's, but the Kan just doesn't get it folks. He even tried to argue that only WAAC players liked the old Codex. I mean honestly...

Generic arguments like 'just use counts as' and 'Iron Warriors were too powerful' in no way excuse or justify what was done to the Chaos Codex, and the same applies to the gutted VC list.

**ph34r**

Kanluwen wrote:I should also like to add: Page 79 of Alessio's Vampire Counts army book. Right there, in black and white, under the Blood Dragons army list:
Skeleton Bowmen.

In the old book you could also take a hero from any army book as a lahmian thrall. It was pretty cool.

**Kanluwen**

ph34r wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:I should also like to add: Page 79 of Alessio's Vampire Counts army book. Right there, in black and white, under the Blood Dragons army list:
Skeleton Bowmen.
In the old book you could also take a hero from any army book as a lahmian thrall. It was pretty cool.

The Swains, you mean?

Yeah. They were neat, but if you weren't up to date on the lists people would try to sneak some crazy crap in.

I do want Skeleton Bowmen though. Quite a bit. It has always seemed a tad silly to me that somehow the Tomb Kings' minions can remember how to fire a bow, but the Vampires' minions can't.

**ph34r**

It's likely because the VC are based largely near the empire, who do not employ archers nearly as much as the khemrians.

**LunaHound**

VC need a complete revamp for the Undead rules especially if they want to make it different than TK.
The whole unstable rule need tweaking or have points adjusted accordingly.

**-Loki-**

Well a fluff reason for Tomb Kings having bowmen and VC not would be that Tomb Kings forces are as they were in life, but reanimated. So if that king had bowmen, he now has skeleton bowmen.

For VC, skeleton units, like zombie units, are whatever happened to be in the ground when the vampire decided it wanted an army. There might well be bowmen in there, but they're not going to form into specialised groups.

Fluff aside, it's somethig that could make VC core choices a bit more interesting. Being able to have bunkers of bowmen would certainly be more appealing for caster lords, since the bowmen would be able to do something while acting like a backline bunker.

**Kanluwen**

ph34r wrote:It's likely because the VC are based largely near the empire, who do not employ archers nearly as much as the khemrians.

Not "near" the Empire, within the Empire. Sylvania and its surrounding environs are within the province of Stirland, and bordered by Averland, The Moot, and Ostermark.

I would agree with you a bit about the Empire...if the dang Vampires weren't smack dab in the middle of Stirland, which has the claim to fame of being one of the more poor provinces with rustic customs and simple weaponry. The "Uniforms and Heraldry" book even goes so far as to mention that the province is famed for its Huntsmen and Archers, with the 'signature' unit of the province being a unit of scouts known as the "Deathjacks".

Heck, it's also worth mentioning that many of the Blood Dragon lineage go out of their way to try to make the more 'regimented' armies of Wights, Skeletons, and Zombies into grotesque mockeries of Bretonni or Empire formations.

Can you imagine Wights with detachments of Zombies and Skeletons? Fun!

**Dice Monkey**

Kanluwen wrote:In all seriousness: Gav catches far too much flak for cleaning up others messes. Chaos and Vampires were some of the most ridiculously bloated and nonsensical books, and should have been given far more time to be worked upon.

Gave Thorpe changed my life by allowing me to shelve my Tyranids, then my Word Bearers and finally 40K entirely. He should be recognized as the greatest writer of game rules and Science Fiction ever to live, much as Coleman Francis is to film and Florence Foster Jenkins is to opera.

I am indifferent to the new VC book, I just hope they playtest it with someone besides the case of pork and beans and cardboard cutouts of Tom Selleck and Edward James Olmos they have been using for the past few years.