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I was looking around this afternoon and i noticed a thread whereby the OP asked a professional how he painted a models that the pro had put up as an example. I for reasons best left unsaid find this moraly ambiguous and etiquet(ly) wrong. A profession has his skills to live off if they go around giving their techniques away all the time they're giving away their only marketable skill for nothing and nothing dosen't put bread on the table. As it is the pro has offered the advise requested and told the OP what paints he used.

What do you guys think, Is it just snobbery and eliteisum for PRO's to with-hold their knowledge from us hobyists or is it important to keep your tricks of the trade all to yourself?

I see no problem with this.
The knowledge of the technique doesn't take "bread off the table"
The skill to apply that knowledge is what puts the "bread on the table"
Sharing the technique doesn't give the skill.
Only endless practice does.

There's more to it than just a list of paints, it's all about the skills.

Ah, someone ninja'd me.

mullet_steve wrote:What do you guys think, Is it just snobbery and eliteisum for PRO's to with-hold their knowledge from us hobyists or is it important to keep your tricks of the trade all to yourself?

I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't share what they know about any hobby or craft. Painting toy soldiers well doesn't place you in some secret society where all the elites have a horde of tricks they keep cleverly hidden from the rough Huns at the gates. If you want to learn a technique, typically all you have to do is ask 'the internet' and answers will be forthcoming, or do some research. There's plenty of experts on any subject sharing their knowledge in various formats, be it video, text, audio, whatever. And for every dude who thinks he's too cool to show you 'his tricks', there's plenty of dudes who actually are cool and will gladly help you out.

What's more, I can't think of too many scenarios where someone who is great at what they do doesn't willingly, even eagerly, sit down and talk about their craft with their peers on at least a semi regular basis.

mullet_steve wrote:I for reasons best left unsaid find this moraly ambiguous and etiquet(ly) wrong.

This intrigues me. Are you a super artist yourself who doesn't want us to come and seek advice? Is it against your religion? Really, this intrigues me greatly.

I can't understand what would be morally ambiguous or poor etiquette about this. He or she was asking a question.

The pro painters make their money from skill, practice and patience, not some secret technique.

That said, a pro-painter would be well within their rights to withold the information if they wanted to. But whatever they're keeping secret won't be the be all and end all of their talent.

This is a silly question.

Morality has nothing to do with it.
Etiquette has nothing to do with it either, just don't be a jerk about it and someone will gladly answer your questions in 99.99% of cases.

If that .01% don't answer, the reasons can be anything from "I don't want to" to "I didn't see your question within a timely manner, and just decided not to bump a dead thread".

What an absurd thread. Do people really think that any professional painter uses a technique that is yet unheard of to man, that they possess some arcane knowledge that they have a right to hoard? Very few modellers will refuse to discuss their approach to modelling.

Painting is painting, there are different techniques, but the theory is generally the same. There's a gulf between being told how to do an expert technique and actually being able to achieve it yourself. There are only a few short cuts in painting, and they are all well known. The rest is skill, and you develop that only with practice.

If a pro-painter shares their techniques with you, don't think they are undermining their business. You have to match their skill first and that's the bit you don't get from reading the interwebs.

Not just do you have to match their skill, you have to garner a reputation as being a trustworthy individual and have your skill recognized consistently as being worth the money you are being paid, being able to deliver a completed project on time, etc.

BrookM wrote:

mullet_steve wrote:I for reasons best left unsaid find this moraly ambiguous and etiquet(ly) wrong.

This intrigues me. Are you a super artist yourself who doesn't want us to come and seek advice? Is it against your religion? Really, this intrigues me greatly.

not at all I'm a former modelmaker and gladly shared ideas techniques and such with my workmates as such however I wouldn't go telling the competition how we did stuff as those techniques were our bread and butter they were what brought the clients back to us rather than our competition.

I found the etiquet and morality of asking a professional how they did something so you could learn/copy them kinda funky and as I was corrected by the professional in question I thought it might open up a nice debate on the morality and etiquet of doing so. Apparently I am very much in the minority which pretty much answers the question on how the community feels on this issue. I appologise if people think it is a silly question it just interested me and I thought I'd share.

Its the same as any amateur asking a pro for tips.

-How to curve a soccer (foot) ball
-How to take a proper slapshot in hockey
-How to properly throw a football

And many others. Just because you know the proper techniques in theory doesnt mean you can do it.

I can throw mechanically near perfect, but cant throw a football 70 yards, or even 50 probably. Giving help on techniques isnt going to turn an amateur painter into a pro without a gak ton of practice, so in short, no absolutely nothing wrong with asking/giving advice.

Howard A Treesong wrote: Do people really think that any professional painter uses a technique that is yet unheard of to man, that they possess some arcane knowledge that they have a right to hoard?

Whispers of Tzeentch, dawg. Whispsers of Tzeentch.

mullet_steve wrote:I was looking around this afternoon and i noticed a thread whereby the OP asked a professional how he painted a models that the pro had put up as an example. I for reasons best left unsaid find this moraly ambiguous and etiquet(ly) wrong. A profession has his skills to live off if they go around giving their techniques away all the time they're giving away their only marketable skill for nothing and nothing dosen't put bread on the table. As it is the pro has offered the advise requested and told the OP what paints he used.

What do you guys think, Is it just snobbery and eliteisum for PRO's to with-hold their knowledge from us hobyists or is it important to keep your tricks of the trade all to yourself?

For starters: "Pro" is a label/term that gets thrown about and applied to things far too often.

Secondly: When did painting become a competative part of gaming as well?

This seems a non-issue to me...

When I was in college I ran a business with a couple of buddies building lofts in dorm rooms for folks. One time some chick's dad asked what we charged, I told him. He asked how much materials cost, and I told him (about 20-25% of what we charged for the loft). He demanded justification for the cost.

I explained I had the tools. I had the truck to haul lumber. I knew the materials to buy, the cuts to make, and how to assemble the pieces. He asked for the material list and I gave it to him, even giving him the list of cuts he would need to make.

I have NO problem sharing knowledge/tips and will even spend time teaching what I know if someone is genuinely interested.

A couple of days later he came up and pushed a wad of cash into my hand to build his daughter a loft and said we could try to salvage any lumber in her room that we wanted to. It seems that even with the knowledge of what to buy and how to build, he couldn't get it done correctly.

I see Pro-Painters like that. I've bought some fantstic books on figure painting, and had some great artists give me tips. Bottom line is I don't have the time and patience to dedicate to raising my skill level to the point i can get the results of some of these folks, let alone get those results in the same amount of time it takes them to do so.

I'm okay with that. I can paint well enough for my purposes, and have been known to use painting services because I honestly don't have time to paint a lot of what I want painted.

That's the thing.
If I pay a pro painter, I'm paying for his time more than his skill.
I have more money than time. I can always make more money, but time is finite.

There's also the assumption that if a painter 'gives away their secrets' they will diminish their customer base.

My impression is that a lot of people who pay for painting do so not because they lack an ability to paint, but that they don't have the time or genuinely have little interest in painting or really would prefer someone else's efforts. Being given painting tips isn't a solution for them.

In fact, a couple of painters that have answered my 'How do you do that' questions have gotten my business because they were willing to answer my questions.

Jake

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/401073.page

Here is the thread in question that the original poster was referring to, and i am the painter he is referring to.

I freely give suggestions on how I paint, and what colors/techniques I use.....however I find the mentality of "holding back" to be elitist and something that detracts from the hobby, not adds to it.

As I mentioned in the referenced thread, I help people because that will help that person enjoy the hobby more, if they enjoy the hobby more, I feel they would be more inclined to be more involved in the hobby, and having people involved in the hobby is something everyone can benefit from, idealist I know....

Many others though have hit the nail on the head about skill, for example, a few months ago I did a commission on some Eldar Jet Bikes, I did a blue/black marble effect, it really tuned out well. Now I have been painting that marble effect on things for years, it is a very easy technique for me to use. I had several people pm me about it and and wanting to know how it worked, I helped them out and one person in particular emailed me back indicating he "gave up" he understood the technique, but lacked the skill. I have no problem what so ever explaining how to do things to people...but that is just my altruistic nature.

Ashton

I think it's perfectly acceptable to ask better painters what techniques they use and how they accomplish their work. They don't necessarily have to answer, but then again - if *I* don't at least ask, how will I ever improve my skills? I'm not a world class painter by any means; my stuff is slightly above tabletop quality at best, and a lot of that is largely because I don't feel like spending 30+ hours on individual models.
As others have pointed out, simply because you know the techniques and paints doesn't mean you can replicate the effect.

This is the power of the internet. You can find everything you want to know, even in paintin. The true question is what are you gonna do with it. There are lots of people asking others how to become bether but they will never succeed because they dont have it in them. The true artist will shine and the rest will only envy

I think the pro painter that probably has the most name recognition in this issue is Les B from APJ. a guy with a lot of talent who freely shares not only how he does his majick but showed the community easy economical ways to get great results. Without selling a DVD or expecting anything in return.
That's pretty much how I see this. Talented people share thier work on Dakka, they have to expect tha someone will ask how they achieved thier results. It's certainly not a faux paux in the PandM section.

Knowledge of the technique as has been said does not skill enough to make a living from give.
By your rationale, GW should just leave everyone in the dark on how to do any painting technique, so the new people to their games can struggle with no clue as to how to highlight up etc and get disheartened?
And honestly pro painted means nothing these days thanks to ebay claims! .

All "Pro Painted" means these days is that someone is being paid for the painting.

I can slap some paint on a model and sell it on eBay claiming it's "Pro Painted"
If I'm getting paid, it's a profession.

marv335 wrote:All "Pro Painted" means these days is that someone is being paid for the painting.

I can slap some paint on a model and sell it on eBay claiming it's "Pro Painted"
If I'm getting paid, it's a profession.

Perfectly sums it up. Or my favourite ebay auction, "This is pro painted, it was in a GW cabinet" and yet the paintjob looked worse than terrible.

I've caught a lot of crap over the years for freely sharing tricks of the trade, so to speak, and I see nothing wrong with sharing them. Most people aren't going to master the techniques quickly, but when/if they do, that will mean competition. I LOVE competition. It keeps me sharp & on my toes. It helps me push myself so that my work doesn't become stale & redundant. I'm not just talking about painting, this REALLY applies to the tattoo industry. If you've got questions, ASK THEM I say!!!

Erm, I am genuinely shocked here. By helping other people learn new techniques and improve their own painting you get crap?
Ok in the past I have done painting of models for money, armies at a time usually, but never once have I refused to explain to someone how I did things. Sharing these ideas is to me part of the social aspect of the hobby as much as playing a game is.

SonofTerra wrote:Its the same as any amateur asking a pro for tips.

-How to curve a soccer (foot) ball
-How to take a proper slapshot in hockey
-How to properly throw a football

And many others. Just because you know the proper techniques in theory doesnt mean you can do it.

I think this ended the thread nicely. Being a skilled painter isn't like knowing a secret password. If Tiger Woods tells you how to drive a golf ball 400 yards, you won't now be able to drive a golf ball 400 yards.

As a semi-pro painter myself, my opinion is:

You can ask, and they can choose whether to tell you or not. Simple as that. I myself have no problem whatsoever with trading tips methods, there are way too many miniatures out in the world for me to paint all of them. And who knows, if I do build up some good will with you or someone else for sharing suggestions, you might give me business when your hand gets stuck in a garbage disposal and ground to hamburger