Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I remember seeing a thread on this awhile back (can't find it via the fething search button)... I was wondering if there were any consensus on this?

The DE Hexrifle is a sinper weapon. In addition, when it causes an "unsaved wound", the target model must make a Wound test or is removed from play.

How does this interact with FNP models?

Option A) If player makes successful FNP roll, then the hexrifle's Wound test doesn't apply

Option B) The trigger for both FNP and hexrifle's Wound test is when an unsaved wound occurs. Therefore, both rule are in play that determine 4 possible outcomes:
Outcome 1: opponent makes the FNP roll and succeeds on Wound test
Outcome 2: opponent makes the FNP roll and fails the corresponding Wound test, thus removing that model from play
Outcome 3: opponent fails the FNP roll, and takes a wound. If multi-wound model, succeeds Wound test
Outcome 4: opponent fails the FNP roll, and takes a wound. If multi-wound model, fails the Wound test, thus removing that model from play

Thoughts?

[I'm going to move this to OP for new folks reading this...]

Okay... on page 75 on the BRB FNP states:
"...a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound, roll a dice. On a 1, 2, or 3, take the wound as normal (removing the model if it loses if final Wound). On a 4, 5, or 6, the injury is ignored and the model continues fighting...."

And here's the relevant part for the Hexrifle on page 61 of DE codex:
"...A model the suffers an unsaved wound from a hexrifle must take a characteristic test based on their Wounds value..."

You're told to take the Wound Characteristic test when the model suffers an unsaved wound.

As far as I can tell... FNP doesn't tell you to ignore the "unsaved wound"... it tells you that if FNP roll is successful that the injury is ignored. Therefore the model still suffered an unsaved wound and that the hexrifle's Wound Test still happens.

Thoughts?

Option A, in my opinion.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Option A, in my opinion.

Okay... why?

For simplicity's sake I will choose A.

Why?
Unsaved wound is akin to wound taken

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:For simplicity's sake I will choose A.

Why?
Unsaved wound is akin to wound taken

interesting... but, if my memory is right, FNP doesn't tell you to ignore the "unsaved wound", it tells you to ignore the effect of that "unsaved wound", thus the model doesn't lose a wound.

Therefore, in that event, the model still suffered an "unsaved wound", but due to successful FNP roll, the model ignores the effect, thus is still kicking...

Doesn't that how FNP work?

In my opinion Option A.

As long as you haven't rolled a 6 to wound you have a chance to use FnP. Saying you don't get to use it is a breach of the rules (in my understanding at least). You have to let it trigger before other effects take place (for instance removing a single wound model as a casualty if it fails its save).

You shoot a model with the sniper weapon.
The model takes it's saves as normal, armor/cover/invun and then FNP is the sniper weapon didn't rend or wasn't ap 2/1
Then toughness test if it takes the UNSAVED wound.

juraigamer wrote:You shoot a model with the sniper weapon.
The model takes it's saves as normal, armor/cover/invun and then FNP is the sniper weapon didn't rend or wasn't ap 2/1
Then toughness test if it takes the UNSAVED wound.

But the trigger to use FNP and the Wound test are the same... right?

FNP, if successful just tells you to ignore the effect of the unsaved wound.
The Hexrifle's special rule does NOT cause a wound... it's a different event that is triggered the same way as FNP is triggered.

I say option "A" also.

That said, scientists actually discovered that the chicken is partially formed first then is surrounded by what will later become the egg shell.

whembly you dont seem to be on the band wagon like every other poster what is your opinion.

By the way i would go with A

The Hexrifle requires and unsaved wound.

FNP also requires an unsaved wound.

However, I believe that FNP would trigger first, because it would give the model a chance to ignore the wound, therefore negating the unsaved wound. The wound only counts as unsaved when all possible saves, FNP included, are failed.

kellymatthew37 wrote:whembly you dont seem to be on the band wagon like every other poster what is your opinion.

By the way i would go with A

No... I'm not...

I remember seeing a key phrase in the FNP rule... I'll dig it out when I get home.

Just trying to see what ya'll think of this as my local group plays it differently...

FNP ignores the unsaved wound.

To have an effect trigger off of that unsaved wound is not Ignoring that wound.

[I'm going to move this to OP for new folks reading this...]

Okay... on page 75 on the BRB FNP states:
"...a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound, roll a dice. On a 1, 2, or 3, take the wound as normal (removing the model if it loses if final Wound). On a 4, 5, or 6, the injury is ignored and the model continues fighting...."

And here's the relevant part for the Hexrifle on page 61 of DE codex:
"...A model the suffers an unsaved wound from a hexrifle must take a characteristic test based on their Wounds value..."

You're told to take the Wound Characteristic test when the model suffers an unsaved wound.

As far as I can tell... FNP doesn't tell you to ignore the "unsaved wound"... it tells you that if FNP roll is successful that the injury is ignored. Therefore the model still suffered an unsaved wound and that the hexrifle's Wound Test still happens.

Thoughts?

And "injury" == "wound". If not then FNP does nothing

Okay...

Are there other instances in the game where two different rules are triggered, but depending on the result of one rule, the other one is ignored?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:And "injury" == "wound". If not then FNP does nothing

Nos... the reason why I'm so hung up on this...

and I know I'm asking rhetorically as GW writers aren't perfect... but, wouldn't it be easier to say "ignores the unsaved wound" vs. "ignores the injury"??? See where I'm getting at? And there's no explaination that says FNP rolls are always first when determining whether other special rules can kick in.

Isn't this a case of RAW vs RAI?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And don't get me wrong... I play nob bikers and I expect to start seeing hexrifles soon as we're getting more DE players in our FLGS.

whembly wrote:As far as I can tell... FNP doesn't tell you to ignore the "unsaved wound"... it tells you that if FNP roll is successful that the injury is ignored. Therefore the model still suffered an unsaved wound and that the hexrifle's Wound Test still happens.

That's how I would read it. FNP isn't a save. The model still suffered an unsaved wound... it just carried on regardless.

nosferatu1001 wrote:And "injury" == "wound". If not then FNP does nothing

+1

The answer is A. From what I've seen this is pretty much the accepted ruling with only the occasional outlaying objection.

Insaniak - actually it ignored it. And to trigger Hex Rifles rules you arent ignoring it any longer

I think Option B, since they still got wounded, but just had the willpower/insanity to ignore it. They still took an unsaved wound, but FNP allows them to ignore the effects of the wound. The hexrifle test is in ADDITION to the unsaved wound so FNP ignores the loss of the wound, but not the requirement of the rest.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
*test

Let me throw this out...

Since there's no expressed order of operation... doesn't the affect of FNP + Hexrifle Wound test happens at the same time?

There's a sort of precedent on this with the way the DE shadow fields work:
The shadow field rule tells you to roll each save separately to determine if the shadow field goes out. Otherwise, if it is not expressed, then you'd roll all saves (at initiative step) at 2+ at the same time.

meh... I'm starting to think this'll end up like the Deffrolla debate...

nosferatu1001 wrote:Insaniak - actually it ignored it. And to trigger Hex Rifles rules you arent ignoring it any longer

I can ignore the fact that there is a chicken sitting on my head.

But if someone having a chicken sitting on their head causes people to point and stare, they're going to point and stare at me regardless of whether or not I acknowledge the existence of the chicken.

insaniak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Insaniak - actually it ignored it. And to trigger Hex Rifles rules you arent ignoring it any longer

I can ignore the fact that there is a chicken sitting on my head.

But if someone having a chicken sitting on their head causes people to point and stare, they're going to point and stare at me regardless of whether or not I acknowledge the existence of the chicken.

^^^^^^^^^^

insaniak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Insaniak - actually it ignored it. And to trigger Hex Rifles rules you arent ignoring it any longer

I can ignore the fact that there is a chicken sitting on my head.

But if someone having a chicken sitting on their head causes people to point and stare, they're going to point and stare at me regardless of whether or not I acknowledge the existence of the chicken.

However, if you react to that (i.e. die), then you aren't ignoring it anymore.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

insaniak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Insaniak - actually it ignored it. And to trigger Hex Rifles rules you arent ignoring it any longer

I can ignore the fact that there is a chicken sitting on my head.

But if someone having a chicken sitting on their head causes people to point and stare, they're going to point and stare at me regardless of whether or not I acknowledge the existence of the chicken.

However, if you react to that (i.e. die), then you aren't ignoring it anymore.

Naw... he's reacting to why people are looking at him strangely... not that fact that there's a chicken sitting on his head...

Hmmm.... I'm hungry for some chicken...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back to my question...

What do you think about the argument that FNP+Wound Test via Hexrifle occurs at the same time since there's no order of operation in resolving these??

whembly wrote:
Naw... he's reacting to why people are looking at him strangely... not that fact that there's a chicken sitting on his head...

And what is the cause of people looking at him strangely?

Something the game tells us to ignore. It does not tell one person to ignore it and everyone else to not ignore it. As a whole we are told to ignore the wound, so that means everyone involved.

There are two ways to determine the effects of the hex rifle and FNP.

#1:

Roll FNP first and on a 4-6 ignore the wound. roll for the hex rifle effect, but as we are told to ignore the wound nothing happens when we fail this test.

Roll Hexrifle first then if we fail, roll for FNP and on a 4-6 ignore the wound and of course this means we have to ignore the effects of the hexrifle as we are told to ignore the wound.

Unit1126PLL wrote:However, if you react to that (i.e. die), then you aren't ignoring it anymore.

Actually, on consideration in the shower, I'm going to completely reverse my opinion on this one, and put it down to another example of why GW really need to adopt more precise language in their rules.

Because if you follow my original argument through, a (for example) 2 wound model that takes a wound but passes his FNP roll would ignore the wound... but would have still suffered it, since FNP doesnt say to negate it, just to ignore it. So essentialy, FNP would have no effect on multi-wound models. It would just allow models to remain on the board after losing their last wound so long as they pass their FNP roll.

SO I'm going to jump over to the 'ignore is supposed to mean negate' side of the fence. In which case no unsaved wound occured, so the hexrifle's effect will not kick in.

Option B.

To say Option A would be denying that the Hex Rifle's trigger happened. Just because you ignore the effect of the trigger (the wound), doesn't mean you ignore the actual act of taking an unsaved wound (the trigger itself).

insaniak wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:However, if you react to that (i.e. die), then you aren't ignoring it anymore.

Actually, on consideration in the shower, I'm going to completely reverse my opinion on this one, and put it down to another example of why GW really need to adopt more precise language in their rules.

Because if you follow my original argument through, a (for example) 2 wound model that takes a wound but passes his FNP roll would ignore the wound... but would have still suffered it, since FNP doesnt say to negate it, just to ignore it. So essentialy, FNP would have no effect on multi-wound models. It would just allow models to remain on the board after losing their last wound so long as they pass their FNP roll.

SO I'm going to jump over to the 'ignore is supposed to mean negate' side of the fence. In which case no unsaved wound occured, so the hexrifle's effect will not kick in.

I'm not following you... I don't see how if you'd take "Option B" that FNP doesn't work on multi-wound models... o.O

Just confused...

Ok, my initial claim was that the wound is ignored, but still happened, which triggers the hexrifle.

But, if you follow that route, because FNP doesn't say to negate the wound, just to ignore it, if you apply the same logic as for the hexrifle then when a multi-wound model suffers a wound and passes his FNP roll, he still suffers the wound but ignores it. So the wound is still there... it just doesn't affect his ability to keep fighting.

SO if we assume that ignoring the wound means it still happens, but the model ignores it, the following happens:

A single-wound model who suffers a wound and passes his FNP is now on 0 wounds (because he suffered an unsaved wound) but can ignore this and carry on fighting, because FNP says so.

A 3-wound model who suffers a wound and passes his FNP is now on 2 wounds. Being able to ignore the wound has no impact on his ability to fight on, because having fewer wounds than you started with has no effect on the unit's combat ability. So FNP would be of absolutely no benefit until he is reduced to 0 wounds.


In general practice, at least from my experience, this is not how it is played. It is generally assumed that passing a FNP roll allows you to negate the wound completely, rather than just ignore it. So a 3-wound model who suffers a wound and passes his FNP would still be on 3 wounds.