Rumoured changes to GW release schedule because of Chapterhouse lawsuit

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**Kroothawk**

Hi,

guess you all are aware that GW started a lawsuit against Chapterhouse to crush the company, because GW feels Chapterhouse is infringing copyright and trademark laws. But instead of going right for the kill, GW lawyers have not been able or willing for almost a year to even state what GW's IP is, that Chapterhouse is accused to have been copying. Details and discussion of the lawsuit can be found in this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/355433.page . The lawsuit itself is NOT the topic of this thread.

But GW seems to have made changes in their release schedule because of the lawsuit.
1.) A.o. Tyranid and Eldar releases are on hold until the legal issues are settled.
2.) Esp. the tyranid second wave including the tervigon kit will not be released as planned. GW will invent a new similar monster with WD rules and release it in that context.
3.) Thunderwolves might not be released at all.
4.) GW gets back to its single release schedule, with every essential unit released at the start, with only some characters following later. The Ogre Kingdom release is a perfect example for that strategy.

Why? At first GW lawyers thought every name, concept and design mentioned in one of their books is per se protected and nobody may do a model based on that without their explicit permission. This proved to be wrong, because only models are protected, not ideas and concepts. Now GW lawyers fear that if they release Tervigons, Thunderwolves etc, the third party companies already doing these might successfully sue them. This is probably wrong as well, but the basis of GW's future strategies. Be aware that StraightSilver mostly presents GW's point of view (plus his own of course), so that the legal situation might be totally different in reality (maybe we have to wait for the end of the Chapterhouse lawsuit). Of course nothing here is officially confirmed by GW (only a hint at the new Tyranid monster), but I am convinced that these rumours are true.

So this thread is to discuss ... in a civil manner of course ... these side effects of the Chapterhouse lawsuit, but not the lawsuit itself, which is discussed in another thread. Attached are the relevant quotes from 4 different threads, I will post my personal comment later in this thread.

StraightSilver wrote:And Eldar will be a ways off just yet. Ther are all sorts of legal issues with Eldar and Tyranids that has meant they have been delayed, but that is a complicated issue for another thread unfortunately.
(...)
A lot of GW releases are on hold until the whole Chapterhouse mess is resolved. There are issues over copyright which until resolved mean GW won't release some stuff until it's all over which won't be any time soon. This specifically relates to two models in the Chapterhouse range, but I don't want to derail this thread with that. However GW won't release some models but not others and so is having to hold off until they can release them all as a wave.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:So wait, does that mean Tyranid players should be venting at the court case for a lack of a second wave.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Is that just speculation, or is that known for a fact?

I cannot obviously corroborate it, but I have heard that is the case from credible sources, but again stuff said over a pint isn't always that reliable, but these are people that would normally know.
And yes that is apparently why the Tyranid wave has been held up and also why GW may never make Thunderwolves. Basically the third party companies that got there first can now challenge GW over copyright, not something they would ever allow to happen.

MrMystery wrote:Source for that? Seems....odd. Given the time it takes GW to get from concept to shelf, I'd have thought releasing it would strengthen their case?
Unless of course Chapterhouse have suspiciously identical models? But this just my wild speculation!

As I say it may only be a rumour, and unfortunately I can't specifically say where most of my rumours have come from in case I drop anyone in it but they do work for the company and aren't a black or red shirt.
And it is specifically a couple of things, but these are fairly important ones.
It's just that Chapterhouse is attesting that it owns the copyright on a couple of GW concepts because it produced the models first. GW are challenging that but don't want to release their models in case Chapterhouse then challenge ownership.
Of course always take with a pinch of salt, but rumours are rumours I guess.

Kilkrazy wrote:
Skinnereal wrote:Names are copyrighted, but shapes aren't.
They can make a Space Marine, and call it a Galactic Soldier, but GW gets to stomp about and shout about it, like they are.

It's more complicated than that.
Take the Chapter House Doom Seer. It isn't part of the GW vs Chapter House case but it makes a good example.
There isn't a single element of the Doom Seer's design that isn't (a) different to the GW Far Seer models and (b) modelled on existing historical designs.
Despite that it is clearly a "not" Far Seer, based on its overall similarity to GW Far Seer models, if you have seen a GW Far Seer first.
The question the court must answer is whether GW's co-option of historical elements into an overall design is sufficiently original as to create an entirely new copyrightable work, and secondly if this has been achieved, have CH violated the putative copyright by copying the overall design with different individual elements.
You can see how complex these questions can be.

kitch102 wrote:Andrew Kenrick, our wonderful WD editor himself, and one of his colleagues (Phil I think? Not sure, will find his picture and confirm) hinted at a possible Tyranid release. This will not be the fabled 2 wave, but will fill a gap in the codex. However he also said "but then it may not be a gap filler, but an altogether different model with it's rule set to be released in white dwarf". Nid players... don't read too much in to this, there aren't enough facts to get excited about, but equally I don't think someone in the know such as Mr AK would say sometihng's coming when it's not. Again, no dates were hinted at.

StraightSilver wrote:Unfortunately GW were unable to release their Tervigon kit (see my other comments elsewhere) as they had intended and so are having to make do with a White Dwarf bolt on.
Essentially the WD rules will be a Tervigon and something else, and the kit will make both models, a bit like the new Ogre Kingdoms monsters.
At least this is what I have been told, don't know if it's true or not.

StraightSilver wrote:I just thought I would clarify some of my earlier posts, but of course am concsious of derailing this thread so don't want to go too off topic.

I have also decided not to post further on the subject as I do not want to add too much speculation or more importantly get anyone into trouble.

Anything I have said may well just be conjecture or the opinion of an individual, but as they are still deeply involved with the company I do not want to implicate them.

So I will expand upon my earlier comments but then leave it at that.

GW do not essentially have a problem with third party products or companies that produce them and in most cases these companies enhance GW sales as you need GW kits to use them.

The majority of third party companies have also been very careful not to use GW trademarks, or step over the line with GW's IP.

Generic backpacks or vehicle accessories do not infringe GW copyright, neither do seperate heads that can be used on GW figures for example.

Even companies who make more specific products such as Space Marine accessories have been very careful to not directly market them as such.

Galactic Space Knights are not Space Marines, and Galactic Space Knight shoulder pads with Templar Crosses are not Black Templar Shoulder pads.

However when a third party manufacturer starts selling Salamnder Shoulder pads, or Space Marine Black Templar Rhino doors they are crossing the line, but only to the point where GW would advise them to change their terminology on their online store and to stop using GW trademarks.

Unfortunately Chapterhouse flouted this, and even posted in the news section of their website that they were doing nothing wrong and that GW should essentially take them to court (I'm paraphrasing).

However that still wasn't the main problem with Chapterhouse.

Once they moved away from creating after market products compatible with GW kits and started producing original sculpts based on GW IP they crossed a line.

In terms of US copyright a concept or idea cannot be copyrighted, so the idea of a Doom of Malantai model, or a Tervigon, or a jetbike seer council weren't protected until the models were released.

When Chapterhouse beat GW to it by making these models it appeared it may affect future GW releases and on legal advice GW held back some of their releases until they could prove unequivecally that they had total ownership.

This of course will be decided in court, but in defence of GW Chapterhouse bought this on themselves, they were given the opportunity to comply with GW's requests, but chose instead to go to court.

In terms of how this affects GW some explanation of how the company plans its releases is required.

There is a reason GW releases miniatures in waves.

It is purely a business reason dictated to them by their financial department.

A company like GW needs consistent sales throughout the year, and also needs to show year on year growth. It is a public company and therefore very conscious of its share prices, and consistent sales are by far the best way to keep investors happy.

If they release lots of cool new stuff all in one go then they willl get sales bubbles, which look bad on their financials. It is better for them to have releases spread across the year which therefore spreads their sales.

There is also the fact that they will have invested much time and care in their new releases, and to release them all in one hit menas they will not stay fresh, but also means they will need to create more new releases to spread out that year which they do not have the resources for.

It is also common to have a release planned and to hold it back until it makes more financial sense, and this is why some expected releases seem to disappear, only to reappear later when the company needs to make some sales during a slower quarter.

However releasing figures in waves can leave huge gaps in Codexes, and not every gamer is prepared to wait. This didn't used to be a problem as people would buy GW kits and convert them, but now they can simply buy them from third party companies.

GW are fullly aware of this, and are looking at the way they release things, and make changes. Dark Eldar were an example of this, with the entire range being released in a comparatively short space of time. They were released in waves, but they were very close together so that there were no long waits. Ogre Kingdoms seem to be following the same format, with their models being released over two quarters.

However this does mean that there will be sales bubbles and GW then have to make up the shortfall elsewhere. This unfortunately often results in a price increase which GW then get a lot of flak for.

And it's also possible that Dark Eldar were too successful. Their sales beat expectation, but may be the reason another release has been put on hold (won't say which one but I think it's obvious). Having all your 40K sales in one year would then result in negative growth the following year unless GW had more products to release.

As I say most of what I am saying is based on conversations with somebody who works for GW, and may just be his or her speculation or opinion but I originally posted this in the rumours section for that reason.

I just wanted peopl to see the bigger picture where the Chapterhouse lawsuit was concerned. I don't want to demonise them, I just think if they had gone down the same path as other third party companies they could have avoided the litigation, but they decided to let it get to court, which wasn't GWs intention, but they felt they had no choice but to protect their interests.

**Janthkin**

Kroothawk wrote:But GW seems to have made changes in their release schedule because of the lawsuit.
1.) A.o. Tyranid and Eldar releases are on hold until the legal issues are settled.
2.) Esp. the tyranid second wave including the tervigon kit will not be released as planned. GW will invent a new similar monster with WD rules and release it in that context.
3.) Thunderwolves might not be released at all.
4.) GW gets back to its single release schedule, with every essential unit released at the start, with only some characters following later. The Ogre Kingdom release is a perfect example for that strategy.

**Catyrpelius**

Thats definatly an intersting read.

It made me rethink some of my opinions on certain companies and how they do buisness.

**$pider**

I have to say that this does cast a negative light on Chapterhouse if all of this is true. I am not a GW fan by any means, however it is their game, their fluff and Chapterhouse wouldn't be making a dime if GW didn't exist.

Chapterhouse should have played ball, and basically done what others have. No reason to take this where it has gone. Either way I don't see this ending well for anyone.

**Agamemnon2**

It'd be an interesting outcome if Chapterhouse really did manage to wound the behemoth. I can't say returning to single-wave releases is going to be all that popular, based on past grievances.

**$pider**

Janthkin wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:But GW seems to have made changes in their release schedule because of the lawsuit.
1.) A.o. Tyranid and Eldar releases are on hold until the legal issues are settled.
2.) Esp. the tyranid second wave including the tervigon kit will not be released as planned. GW will invent a new similar monster with WD rules and release it in that context.
3.) Thunderwolves might not be released at all.
4.) GW gets back to its single release schedule, with every essential unit released at the start, with only some characters following later. The Ogre Kingdom release is a perfect example for that strategy.

This keeps getting repeated, but I've yet to see it actually attributed in a reliable manner. Until it is, there's not really much to discuss here.

**Janthkin**

$pider wrote:I disagree. If you read the whole post you see why GW would postpone a release based on the insider information. Can't know 100% if this is true, but it makes perfect sense for a business to hold all releases until they know the results of this lawsuit. If the courts rule in favor of Chapterhouse then GW will have to rethink their entire release strategy.

The bolded part is my concern. We have this persistent rumor, based solely on StraightSilver's comments on a discussion over a pint with some unnamed person. From that, posters are creating negative opinions of Chapterhouse, when there is NO legal rationale to justify the concern StraightSilver mentions.

If I was paranoid, it would look like a astroturf smearing campaign directed at CH, since the lawsuit by GW isn't going so hot.

**plastictrees**

So were meant to believe that GW, who is constantly berated for being incapable of leveraging new media for marketing purposes, has now deployed some sort of guerrilla smear campaign against Chapterhouse.

I'm impressed that Dakka is capable of making Chapterhouse the victim in any given scenario. You're not just suggesting that this is conjecture, but that GW is maliciously attacking the poor little bitz manufacturer through rumour. Brilliant.

**Howard A Treesong**

I have difficulty believing it really. It doesn't seem very likely unless GW are trying to put on some over-the-top display of hardship to the courts.

**Kroothawk**

Janthkin wrote:Until it is, there's not really much to discuss here.

With all due respect, let everyone decide for himself what he thinks is worth discussing.
BTW StraightSilver's other rumour was that most Dark Eldar units including a flyer will be released within 6 months, which proved to be right. So his current rumour is not to be dismissed so easily.

Concerning the other comments:
1.) It is not Chapterhouse's fault that GW lawyers don't know copyright and trademark laws and start a messed up a lawsuit.
2.) Even if GW loses the lawsuit, the result would not be ultimate anarchy and the end of IP protection. It is a local result, with every other case needing its own lawsuit. And of course GW can continue making models based on its concepts without being sued by others. It is just difficult to explain to lawyers, who proved to have no idea of copyright and trademark laws.

Trasvi wrote:Personally, I don't see why GW would be delaying its release of Tyranid second wave because of CHS. My reasoning:

1) If CHS is found guilty, then that would mean that GW had the rights to produce the mini all along.
2) If CHS is found not guilty, then that would mean it is ok to produce model inspired by another company's IP, which means GW had the right to produce that mini all along.

3.) If we see a WD ruleset for a non-Tervigon accompanied by a non-Tervigon kit, we will have confirmation. The delay of the tyranid wave is an indication.

**winterman**

Wouldn't GW releasing a jetbike/seer, tervigon or doom model strengthen their case? Just seems really odd to me and just idle speculation turned into rumor.

**plastictrees**

Kroothawk wrote: GW lawyers don't know copyright and trademark laws

Kroothawk has declared it to be so and so it must be so.

**Kroothawk**

The farseers on jetbike are an interesting case.

People are waiting for the important "Farseer council on jetbike" model for at least 10 years (3rd edition Codex 2001), for female farseer models much longer. Not listening to customer demands and not releasing models for essential units for 10+ years is a mistake, and companies like Chapterhouse are dealing with this demand. Keeping new releases secret doesn't help, when GW doesn't release those units for 10+ years.

Also keep in mind that most GW customers are not aware of Chapterhouse, so their market is quite small. And that for every dollar spend on Chapterhouse models, people have to spend a multiple of that on GW products, money sometimes not spend without Chapterhouse (Storm Raven kit).

plastictrees wrote:
Kroothawk wrote: GW lawyers don't know copyright and trademark laws

Kroothawk has declared it to be so and so it must be so.

Just watch how GW lawyers can't even deliver a proper case in almost a year. Even the lawyers on Dakka can just describe that behavior as odd and not helful for GW's case.

**Saldiven**

$pider wrote:I have to say that this does cast a negative light on Chapterhouse if all of this is true. I am not a GW fan by any means, however it is their game, their fluff and Chapterhouse wouldn't be making a dime if GW didn't exist.

Chapterhouse should have played ball, and basically done what others have. No reason to take this where it has gone. Either way I don't see this ending well for anyone.

"Played ball?"

What sort of "play" did you have in mind. According to all the documentation posted on the subject on Dakka and elsewhere, GW demanded that CHS destroy all their molds and turn over all the revenue gained from any product that GW claimed violated their IP.

Would you have done that if it were your company?

Anyway, back on topic of the thread, I actually don't believe that this lawsuit has anything to do with the release schedule, at least not from a legality standpoint. I personally believe that this is merely a PR move on the part of GW to cast CHS in a negative light, and that's assuming these assertions in the OP are even true.

The fact of the matter is that GW could produce their own version of a Tervigon any time they wanted to with no possible problem with CHS as long as the GW Tervigon model was different from the CHS model.

**Bat Manuel**

All GW would have to do is release WIP or green shots of new stuff and then they could maintain the "first to make something" status and keep the fans interested for maybe a year or so out. They can't push back the releases too far without giving us something or they'll risk pissing of the fans.

I think it's awesome they got shaken up by Chapterhouse.

**Arschbombe**

But chapterhouse doesn't even make a tervigon. They make some parts that when added to a carnifex kit will give you something that approximates the cruddy art in the tervigon entry nid codex. How can that possibly be construed as chapterhouse making tervigon?

I think the idea that GW would withhold releases because a 3rd party vendor made something similar first is dumb. Given GW's inability to actually prove that it has copyright on anything it's made in the last 30 years it might actually be true, but it's still dumb. It looks like they've coasted along as the biggest fish in their little pond and no one dared challenge their pronouncements on what's what when it comes to copyright. Now all of a sudden the house of cards may fall. Still, none of the 3rd parties have the resources to pursue a remedy in court even if they were ballsy enough to want to try. Chapterhouse is only alive because they got some pro bono help (for great justice!). I don't see the pro bono guys signing on to a case where chapterhouse is on the offensive.

The whole thing as currently presented sounds like a conspiracy theory dreamed up by someone who doesn't like chapterhouse and wants to turn the 40k playerbase against them. It seems like a refinement of some of the comments from when this whole thing started where a chapterhouse victory was described as the end of GW.

**ph34r**

I already have distain for Chapterhouse, based on their terrible website/terrible sculpt quality/overpriced bits.

The fact that they might be interfering with us players receiving actually good quality kits, is just icing on the take of why Chapterhouse is awful.

**Holdenstein**

I can buy some of this rumour, specifically the Tervigon part and the fact that GW will be getting just about everything out straight away for each codex. I have noticed that they have stopped putting pictures in for any model not released in wave 1, to prevent the tervigon problem occuring again.

I'm not buying the thuderwolves part though. GW have already released a thunderwolf and beat all the third party manufacturers to it. It is part of the Canis Wolfborn kit and they're in the clear on that one.

**Baragash**

Saldiven wrote:What sort of "play" did you have in mind. According to all the documentation posted on the subject on Dakka and elsewhere, GW demanded that CHS destroy all their molds and turn over all the revenue gained from any product that GW claimed violated their IP.

It's described in the OP. What you've just described is merely the endgame.

Anyway, couldn't GW just find a sculptor that hasn't seen the CHS Tervigonand get them to make it purely from the description in the Codex?

**deleted20250424**

Trasvi wrote:Personally, I don't see why GW would be delaying its release of Tyranid second wave because of CHS. My reasoning:

1) If CHS is found guilty, then that would mean that GW had the rights to produce the mini all along.
2) If CHS is found not guilty, then that would mean it is ok to produce model inspired by another company's IP, which means GW had the right to produce that mini all along.

This is really the only item that matters. Either GW owns it and can do as they please, or they don't and it doesn't matter who makes it.

Either way, GW can still make the miniature.

I would also suggest that maybe GW look around their studio for sculpts of works in progress. I doubt anyone can crank out sculpts in a few days. Surely there are examples, sketches, etc... laying around the studio that proves they in fact own what they claim they own.

The companies that fill in the gaps make sure their stuff looks *just* close enough to be used in GW armies without standing out. Surely GW can do the same in the reverse scenario.

**theunicorn**

Saldiven
2011/10/04 15:16:51 Subject: Changes to GW release schedule because of Chapterhouse lawsuit

The fact of the matter is that GW could produce their own version of a Tervigon any time they wanted to with no possible problem with CHS as long as the GW Tervigon model was different from the CHS model.

And as long as the kit looked good or great every bug player would run out and buy 1-5 of them, even if they already had a CHS conversion kit or had converted their own.

Look at the evolution of the Wave serpent, A resin kit sold by a third party company, Then a conversion highlighted in WD using a spoon and plasticard. Many eldar players built a few each, Then FW did a conversion kit that many of us bought, now its a high quality plastic kit bought once again.

I have owned: 1 resin, built 2 SpoonSerpents, Had 3 converted FW kits, and now have 6 plastic current releases, with maybe a few more on the wish list.

GW has 1 published photo of the Tervigon, Make it similar but larger than a Carnifex base critter and release it. It will almost instantly invalidate the CHS kit in terms of size and look and sell a ton of kits.

**spaceelf**

I find this so ironic. If GW was not so tight lipped about its releases and prototypes then this would not be a problem for them at all. GW really does have a communication problem, they just do not realize it.

It has been suggested that this is some elaborate scheme to get people to rage against ChapterHouse. This may be the case, however I think that GW's actions may simply make people rage against GW. Rather than try to settle amicably with Chapterhouse they go straight for the lawyers. Real nice guys. GW has a long history of screwing with fans. Squats, Dark Eldar, etc. As was pointed out earlier in this thread the range has been lacking a Farseer on jetbike model since 3rd edition.

**Kirasu**

So.. does this mean GW won't be adding ANY models to any codex that they won't make a model for? If this is true then i say THANK YOU CHAPTERHOUSE if you make GW actually support codices in a better manner

I think its pretty silly that GW wont release a model cause someone else picked up their slack.. Whats next, holding their breath till their face turns blue?

This is how markets work, one company didn't deliver what their customers wanted so the customers looked to someone else who WOULD deliver a product. GW needs to adapt better not sue people. Chapterhouse and other companies make accessories for the game, not the actual game itself. Plenty of other companies make money off someone else's IP and I don't see this level of histrionics from the original company generally

**paulson games**

Items like the Tervigon were in GW material long before CH produced anything, therefore GW retains all of it's legal claim to make those items. (doubly so if CH is judged by the court to be producing "derivitive works" of those)

If you take the time to review the items there's a bunch of that are in dispute within the case that GW has since released.

I'm sorry guys but this is a total chicken little panic situation, GW iis simply not releasing items because they don't think they will see an adequete return for the investment to make those models. No matter what the cheerleaders say they are about making money and they don't care care that the players have gaping holes in their lists.

**Saldiven**

Kirasu wrote:This is how markets work, one company didn't deliver what their customers wanted so the customers looked to someone else who WOULD deliver a product. GW needs to adapt better not sue people. Chapterhouse and other companies make accessories for the game, not the actual game itself. Plenty of other companies make money off someone else's IP and I don't see this level of histrionics from the original company generally

I have to agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly. On multiple occasions I have pointed out the after-marget automobile parts industry which does almost exactly what CHS does. Those aftermarket companies have been around for decades operating without licenses from the automobile manufacturer. Ford doesn't have a problem with the plethora of after-market parts suppliers for Mustangs because Ford understands that you have to buy a Mustang before those after-market parts have any value.

GW has apparently never understood that someone else making a Tervigon conversion kit actually encourages someone to buy a Carnifex. And, face it...without that conversion kit, there really is no reason to buy a Carnifex model; they suck in game.

**Kroothawk**

spaceelf wrote:I find this so ironic. If GW was not so tight lipped about its releases and prototypes then this would not be a problem for them at all. GW really does have a communication problem, they just do not realize it.

That's a central point. If GW made clear there will be a model within 6 months, noone would have cared to make such a model. Everyone would have waited for the official model. In GW's point of view though, their secrecy was not enough and must be raised to even higher levels.

**fire4effekt**

So last night i made a mold of a lighting claw, and it turned out great. GW kicked in my door and shot me mum.

I should've know better, this was all my fault.

**Kilkrazy**

Janthkin wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:But GW seems to have made changes in their release schedule because of the lawsuit.
1.) A.o. Tyranid and Eldar releases are on hold until the legal issues are settled.
2.) Esp. the tyranid second wave including the tervigon kit will not be released as planned. GW will invent a new similar monster with WD rules and release it in that context.
3.) Thunderwolves might not be released at all.
4.) GW gets back to its single release schedule, with every essential unit released at the start, with only some characters following later. The Ogre Kingdom release is a perfect example for that strategy.

This keeps getting repeated, but I've yet to see it actually attributed in a reliable manner. Until it is, there's not really much to discuss here.

**Saldiven**

paulson games wrote:I'm sorry guys but this is a total chicken little panic situation, GW iis simply not releasing items because they don't think they will see an adequete return for the investment to make those models. No matter what the cheerleaders say they are about making money and they don't care care that the players have gaping holes in their lists.

I have to agree with this. GW is a publicly traded corporation. The bottom line on the P&L statement is infinitely more important to them than whether or not a player has a model for a unit that player wants in his army.

**fullheadofhair**

This thread is a total crock. It is 100% supposition and conjecture based of nothing reliable. Some of what is being said is almost grassy knoll stuff. Since this CH/GW issue it seems to me that Kroot really seems to be cranked up on the GW hate - and seeing as I cannot stand their incompetence either that is saying something.

I am willing to bet very good money that GW lawyers have a better understanding of IP than 99.9% of people who post here. I am also willing to bet very good money that they just expected CH to fold because of the costs involved and certainly didn't anticipate a pro-bono situation. Now they have to get themselves out of a stupid situation they have created without buggering anything else up. Often, it is the simple explantion that is the case.

I am reminded of two sayings:
Don't put down to malice what can often be put down to stupidity.

Dont' mistake incompetence for a strategy.

I agree with Janthkin. This thread is a waste and should be closed like the other CH/GW thread Kroot tried to spin off.

I also need to find another website for my lunch time. I am starting to shake my head at too many threads.