Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Here it is. The fruit of some labors; mine and many others. Tell me what you guys think, generally and on specifics. Don't feel like you have to give me a detailed critique on the whole thing; a comment here or there from any one person will surely add up to a lot, if it keeps happening.

If any of you folks are still hesitant to download the file, send me a PM and I'll send it to you via one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, looks like I forgot to change some stuff. All Core troops should have BS4 or lower. Special are the same, except Eternal Guard and Waywatchers; they have 5's.

We had them starting out at BS5 for a bit, instead of ignoring various penalties, since it was simpler, but I'd rather keep things as close as I can to the current book. Though BS5 is a lot simpler than BS4-but-ignore-this-and-that. The Mathhammer shows it to be a big difference, though. Not sure if the Wood Elves need that kind of help. Not yet.

Okay, the more current version is the lower one. A few questions:

- would giving Dryads a 6+ Scaly Skin save be worthwhile? I don't think it would do much at all, but the question is: is the loss of simplicity, of streamlined rules, worth it?

- Eternal Guard. In this incarnation, they're WS/BS5 with spears, shields, and Stubborn. Beyond that, they're Glade Guard for +3pts. Would halberds be better than spears and shields? It would fit the idea that most Guard-type units use halberds. But do you think they're reasonable? Good? Should they be able to run from a fight like the other units?

- Wild Riders. A 4+ Ward save, Frenzy, and the ability to continually back down from combat so they get to keep using their spears. How much should these guys cost. A 4+ Ward is often amazing, but they'll still fall faster to Goblins and Free Company faster than any knight. Would it be better if, as long as they had Frenzy, they couldn't flee from combat? That would make sense to me.

- War Hawk Riders. What if they had two wounds, same price? T3, with a 5+ save, on a big ol' base, for 30pts. 2 Wounds would make them a little tougher to bring down via small-arms fire, but the things that will tear through them like tissue paper will still do so. Whaddaya think?

Any other comments would be welcome!

These rules would make Wood Elves the most dominant Armybook in Warhammer Fantasy. Glade Guard will be extremely overpowered with these rules. No stand and shoot negative modifiers, automatically falling back from combat without allowing a pursue move, shooting in three ranks, Armour Piercing.... You suggest the Glade Guard to be 1 point more than High Elf Archers. Now I wouldn't compare to High Elf Archers if you want to balance Glade Guard (because High Elf Archers are extremely overpriced), but these rules should make Glade Guard almost twice as expensive as High Elf Archers.

It also doesn't address the issues Dryads currently have, which is that they are Skirmishers.

I haven't looked at the rest yet, but these stood out to me.

I think it is nice to have house rules like these to prevent your local Wood Elves player to be screwed until a new Armybook is released, but I feel like you shouldn't any new units and if any Magic Items are added they should be few. It is already difficult enough to balance the amount of units the Wood Elves currently have.

A-buh? Really?

So, first: the shoot-in-three-ranks thing I meant to delete. It was an idea I had before, a way to encourage Wood Elf players to take larger units of Glade Guard.
Furthermore, Glade Guard already ignore those penalties to shooting.
And yes, an improved Hit and Run rule and Armour Piercing. So, does the Archery rule, Forest Strider, Hit and Run, and Armour Piercing equal out to be more than light armour and ASF? Yes. But does it equate to more than a 12pt model should be worth? I'm less sure on that. As you say, High Elf Archers pay too much for their bows.

I've done some numbers on the Hit and Run concept. T3 with no saves equals a lot of dead elves. If they're fighting, say, Chaos Warriors, that initial combat will see to it that so many elves die as to drastically reduce their effectiveness when they run away and rally. Against Clanrats, they'll lose less bodies, but the higher number of arrows they'd be shooting would account for less, point-for-point.
If they lose combat, they'll keep losing, and have less and less guys. If they win combat, the benefits to running off will be rather small. Usually just the +1 CR. Maybe +1 S for charging with spears, in some cases.

The real issue with that rule is that it makes it harder for your opponent to gain victory points in 8th, but I think that could be solved with a return of partial victory points; a needed change, if you ask me.

In this book, Dryads have a permanent 5+ Ward and the ability to charge in, kill some dudes, and then run off again. It's not a big deal, but Dryads are WS4 S4 T4 models with A2 for 12pts. And that's not even a little bad. Sure, you can't really field them in big units. But...that's sorta' the point, isn't it?

My friends and I are all adamant on this: each army book should have, more or less, the same number of options as the others. Adding a few units helps mix things up. As for balance? I think the potential to throw things off doesn't really change much from switching the rules on an existing unit versus making up rules for a new one. Mathematically, you're just changing the font the equation's written in, or the color of the ink it's printed in.

But thanks for pointing out that issue in the Archery rule. That, I feel, would make the Glade Guard...too good. Just like BS5 was probably too big a swing. My unit of 40 Stormvermin was down to 4 in two turns of shooting. With the Stormbanner up and running. Eesh.

I quite like this fan-dex. Although I do have some suggestions.

Eternal guard seem very powerful. With all the benefits of Glade Guard and then str 4 to boot, I would say that 15 points is to much for that. I would drop the shooting element from them completely.

I like the hounds but would rather they where wolves and had the forest spirit rules. Seems fluffier to me as I don't picture WE hunting with dogs.

While I do like the changes you have made to the wardancers and I think it would be the path that they would be taken down, I would miss the ability to pick and choose dances

I would keep waywatchers at 24pts since you made them awesome again. the ability to take out an enemy chr before the game starts is huge (even if you have to role a 6 first).

The WE lore seems very op to me. While it does reflect WE to me the ability to summon troops out of forests seems quite powerful, a treeman for 20+ seems to good. Maybe change it so that it replenishes 2D6 wounds forest spirit units (like that VC one 'summon undead horde'?) and the buffed version could give them hatred for the turn.

Other than that awesome work. I like what you did with the dragon. The Glade Riders would be useful again, without being to strong and the shadow kin look good (you should do more of these for the core/special/hero areas, I have always wanted to do a shadow army).

Nice work.

I see what you're saying.

The thing with Eternal Guard...they need to compare to Black Guard and Pheonix Guard/White Lions. They don't have a Ward save or Hatred or ASF or a high Strength. And reading up on the stories, it seems silly that the Glade Guard, who study the ways of the bow so extensively, set down their bows forever after their promotion.
That said, +1WS +1BS +1S, along with light armour, spears, and Stubborn for 3 more points is skewed, to be sure. I'll still argue that T3 with basically no save for 15pts has its diminishing returns, but even so. What if they went back down to S3 or something?

The hunting-hound thing was just a little extra somethin'; a way for the Wood Elves to put down a small unit that isn't really expensive. And for the record, there are some tales of the Wood Elf lords keeping fine, otherworldly hunting hounds in their kennels. And these guys have the same stats as the mutant wolf-dogs of the north.

I too liked the selection of dances, except that garbage about being forced to change each turn. Still, guys that can have 1 S4, 2 S3, or 1 S3 ASF/KB attack just aren't good enough, and bumping up their S made them way better than, say, Sword Masters.

The Waywatchers, while awesome, are still T3 models with no save, though they are resistant to BS-related shooting. They might be able to take down characters...if those characters are without a unit to guard them. And even then, a cannon can do the same and more, and more reliably, and for less points.

The Lore seems too good, or just the last spell? I hadn't really thought too hard on that one. I forgot that it doesn't carry much of a penalty. What if it carried some of the drawbacks of the Lore of the Wild's big spell? No casting spells, if the caster dies, the monster/unit leaves? Sound better?

I'm rather pleased with the dragon myself, though I'm not convinced he's worth his points. The Shadow Fey aren't my idea, but yeah, I like the feel of it. The Wyld Wood is a dangerous place, and Athel Loren is hungry. Not even the Asrai are completely safe from it's wrath.
Thanks again.

Ah yes, I'm rather pleased with how this all turned out. My only change would be to at least give the Glade Guard type units an option for light armor. It makes sense for Goblins and Skaven slaves to show up to the field naked, but elite units should have the foresight to at least slap on some boiled leather.

I suppose. Though I think the idea is to allow them to move through the undergrowth with ease. Eternal Guard and Wild Riders are the only ones to wear light armour currently, no?

Still, it makes so little difference either way. And it'd only help against S3 attacks. I think it would be good, for the Wood Elves to fair a little better against the massed hordes than they already do, which is terribly. It won't change a thing when they face...anyone else.
Though it would make them vulnerable to the Lore of Metal. Ha.

What do you say, Dakka? What about Dryads? Would it help fix them to have a 6+ Scaly Skin save?

I wouldn't give them a scaly skin save myself. I would go down the regen route. 5+ regen save makes more sense to me fluff and game wise. Another suggestion I have seen floating around is to give forest spirits or just Dryads in particular hatred toward all units with flaming attacks.

I would also reduce the eternal guard to str 3. Str 4 should be reserved for forest spirits and heros/lords.

No armour for the glade guard imo. Glade guard having armour doesn't really fit the fluff for me and it makes an already expensive unit cost for for very little in return. Saying that though it could work well with that spell that adds 2+ to your armour save. I still don't think they should in my opinion. If your glade guard are in combat something has gone wrong and a 6+ save wont do much to help.

-Kredic

To clarify for a moment:

I'm talking about light armour/6+ Scaly Skin saves with no cost adjustments. Dryads and Glade Guard with a 6+ armour save, for 12pts.

Regen would make sense for Dryads, but since that's worse than a Ward save, and Dryads being as difficult to use as they are now, I'm not sure it's a solid mechanic choice. Plus, the Ward save still works. They're Forest Spirits; the Daemon-servants of the lesser Chaos god known as Athel Loren. Sure, they're made of wood. But is living wood more flammable than flesh? Eh.
Hatred against anything with Flaming Attacks would come up so rarely, and it doesn't seem to make much sense to me, unless they also hated models with axes. And beyond that, I think their hatred for...anything that isn't themselves...is more prominent.

Eternal Guard with S3 makes more sense, but not because S4 is only for characters and Forest Spirits; just from a cost-to-effect perspective. They need to be the equivalent of Pheonix/Black Guard and White Lions.
With that in mind, would halberds make more sense than spears and shields?

I don't see why supple leather armour and thick-woven cloaks need contradict with the concept of Glade Guard. Light armour can be light and flexible, and I'm sure the Asrai can make it that way.
Like you say, the save would barely ever help. So what's the harm in it? Let the Glade Guard take 1 in 6 less casualties when fighting Goblins and Skaven, I say.

I'm fine with them keeping their 5+ save and getting a 6+ parry and S4 base. With stubborn, that puts them at pt for pt on par with Black Guard (except for the rerolling misses all rounds thing) or PG (ditto, and the 4+ ward save). So I think getting more attacks, attacking in an extra rank, a points reduction, or all 3 would be appropriate.

And I don't find the Regen save idea to be that much less survivable than the ward, given how many people shoot them with magic missles or Flamers or the like. At least there is a more logical reason for their saves to be negated if it's regen. Or, just make it a straight, normal ward. I still hold that Daemons wouldn't have been the juggernaught of 7th ed if it had retained the vulnerability to magic. Probably would have been a very balanced book at that point.

Oh, yes, I firmly believe that Forest Spirits should retain their Ward saves, magic or no; that's one of the first changes this set of rules included.

Can someone post the stats on Black/Pheonix Guard? I'd like to keep them balanced. And I think that the bows make them quite formidable at BS5. They might fair poorer in combat than their High and Dark kin, but they'll be fighting diminished foes from the beginning, and they'll be more versatile as a unit.

Updated rules. Questions above.

Black Guard:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1490015

Phoenix Guard:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod900164a

And in answer to your query, WR are overcosted now at the 26ish ppm that they are placed at now. They are nearly as much as COK for easily half the usefulness and a fraction of the survivability. I'm fine with their defenses staying as they are now for a points reduction (20ppm sounds about right) or an inclusion of a rule where they cause panic if they charged the flank or rear or negated steadfast the first turn of combat if they hit the flank or rear to represent the "OMFGWHEREDTHEYCOMEFROM?!?" effect of the Wild Hunt.

And yes, I like Frenzy on them. And Brutal Charge.

The big parts seem to be-

Pheonix Guard: ASF, 4+ Ward
Black Guard: Stubborn, permaHatred, two attacks
Eternal Guard: Stubborn, BS5, bows, downgrade to light armour.

I think that's more than fair. What do you guys think? Also, halberds, or spears n' shields?

As for Wild Riders, the 4+ Ward will result in them being almost as durable as heavy cavalry versus a lot of scary things, but significantly less durable against basic units. I think 26pts seems fair right now. All they need is a rule to prevent them from charging, fleeing, charging, fleeing, what with spears and three attacks, but that'll be easy enough; just a brief statement in the Horns of the Wild Hunt rule. I don't want to mess with Steadfast in any way though. Too delicate a balancing act, there.
I really don't think they need any more rules than that, though. 3S5A and a 4+ Ward where you need it, when you need it. They seem Very Good to me ('specially coupled with a Highborn with the Dawnspear and the ASF Spites. Broken? Naw. Awesome? Oh yes).

One more thing. I forgot to change up the Big Spell. It should look something like this, I think:

6: Battlecry of Loren: (16+) The caster cries out to the woods for aid. And the forest provides…..

This spell may be used to summon 2d6 Dryads, or 1d3 Spite Swarms or Treekin. The new unit will appear within 3” of any forest nominated by the caster, or from any table edge, just as if they had pursued an enemy off the table. As long as this unit exists, the wizard who summoned them may not cast spells. If the caster is removed as a casualty, the unit is immediately removed as well. The summoned unit is not worth any victory points. The upgraded version (20+) will summon a Treeman within 3” of a wood.

I'm not sure if its necessary to downgrade them to light armor. I mean the White Lions get by just fine in heavy and they're a pretty good analog for Wood Elves. The main thing from the fluff is that Eternal Guard are unusually martially skilled and will defend their ward to the last man.

Wait...do they have heavy armour right now? I thought it was light armour.

The White Lions do have the Forest Strider rule, but...it just seems odd. Really though, I feel like a Fandex including Wood Elves in heavy armour would get a lot of flak for being too wish list-y, though I bear the Wood Elves no significant love. 'Cept when they're seasoned right. Little warpstone powder, slow roasted...mmm.
I feel like it won't matter much, and like it goes against the fluff just enough. Winter and heavy armour do not mix.

Unless, of course, the current book has them in heavy armour. Then it's all gravy. I think it would be best to avoid peppering the army with little tidbits here and there, otherwise.

This is raising an interesting question as to the function of Eternal Guard. In 7th they were an anvil unit. They were supposed to catch things like enemy monsters and chariots and hold them until the Wild Riders could charge home. Of course an appalling amount of them died doing so.

I always think of these guys as unusually grim for elves. They're oath bound to defend their wards and they probably don't expect to walk off the battle field, just buy their commanders enough time with their lives.

As they're the only guys in the army that really fight in ranks and aren't using hit-and-run maybe heavy armor (between light and full plate) wouldn't be too bad.

I agree with this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree with this.

So how about this:

Eternal Guard 15pts
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
5 5 5 3 3 1 6 1 9
Asrai Archery, Bodyguard, Elite Warriors, Forest Walkers, Stubborn
Equipment: Asrai Longbow, halberd, heavy armour

Really, they're just as durable as before, but they're S4. It fits in with the whole Guard aspect, what with halberds and all, and I also think it's just generally more useful than an extra rank of S3 attacks.

So, I think Eternal Guard, War Dancers, Waywatchers, and Wild Riders are all pretty solid here, everyone. Does anyone think that War Hawk Riders with two wounds each would be crazy-stupid, or should I just go ahead and do that?

Okay, after a few (very few) games, I've had some thoughts:

- bump the Forest Dragon up to M8, drop him down to 250pts?

- Wild Riders, as they are, should cost a good deal more than 26pts. 3 S5 attacks, with a 5+/4+, I think, should cost, say, 35pts a model. Grail Knights cost 38pts, have one less attack at one higher strength, aren't fast cavalry, and are slightly more durable (2+/5 or 6+), and are considered a poor choice.

- The Hit and Run idea seems to be working out pretty well; it's been sort of hard to gauge its effectiveness, since combats are so bloody in 8th. One of the greatest boons seems to be the lack of a desperate need for a BSB. I wonder if that makes Wood Elves too different from the rest of the armies...

- the Lore seems to be doing okay. Nothing crazy's happened yet. Well, nothing crazier than the other Lores of magic.

Cold One Knights are Stupid, AS2+, S6 on the Charge, and have Hate. 27ppm. If you think they should cost more, I think no one would field them. EVER. They would die to one round of small arms fire, and there you go.

I hear you Nagashek, but there is a danger in using Dark Elves as the meter stick for army power. The units in that book are noticeably more efficient than any other army in the game and should be recosted (War Hydra). Using the Empire is probably a safer bet.

Well, let's take a look:

- Cold One Knights have a 2+ armour save, which is as mathematically likely as a 5+/4+, but it's worse, sense it's all modified by strength.

- Cold One Knights have...two attacks, yes-yes? I'd wager that two S6 attacks is almost always worse than 3 S5 ones.

- Their mounts are Stupid and have a decent attack, but they're not Fast Cavalry, and they're slower.

- these Wild Riders have an ability that, while relatively minor, shouldn't be overlooked. The Horns of the Wild Hunt will mean your nearby units will always be able to attempt a Fast Reform, that your opponent's units may not, and that you'll win ties by 1.

Hatred is entirely in the Dark Elves' favor, but beyond that, I'm sure that these Wild Riders are better, and should thus cost more. 8pts/model more? Maybe not. But then again, Questing Knights are 28pts/model, and are generally inferior to Cold Ones Knights; the only reason they're good is within the context of the army. S5 each round is important to the poor Brettonians.