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hi, sorry if i am being annoying, but i got no useful answers in my last post about this, so here it is again.
i am making a chaos super heavy based lightly of http://www.angelfire.com/ultra/world_of_warhammer/rogaldorn.html.
HOWEVER the main turret weapon is being replaced with a daemonicly possessed vanquisher cannon (see pic) i imagine the vanquisher shell being warped into a ball of daemonic energy as it progresses through the barrle
so id' like some help with some rules & values for this weapon:
should i simply keep it as vanquisher?
or should i lower the range on the standard round and add a small blast marker and keep the AT round as is???
or should i (most probable) have a completely new weapon, long range (96"), good AP(2), str 9. small blast heavy 1


any suggestions would be awesome

here are the pics

wow, that gun looks both cool and disproortional at the same time....

it it just an ordinary cannon with decoration or a full-on alien skeleton possessed by an angry daemon and stuck onto a bloated Land Raider?

either way, the whole thing is a cool kitbash and creative use of kits. did oyu make this?

Yeah i made it yesterday, still waiting on the reaper auto cannon though. the kits used are 2 chaos land raiders, chaos knights, and forgeworld vanquisher turret.
I dont think that it is that disproportional for a long range weapon. and yes it is a possessed turret weapon as i basically stated earlier =].

What do you think of proposed stats for it? have you got any other suggestions???

I LOVE THAT GUN!!!

Id say R82" S9 AP2 ordnance 1
small blast
possesed shell


Possesed shell
a weapon with this special rule may re-roll the scatter dice and the 2D6 to hit.

First off, that conversion looks great! Have you thought of a name for it yet?

I would definately say ordnance rather than just a small blast.

Range 82 seems a random amount. Why not make it a daemonicly enhanced Earthshaker? i think that gives it a min range as well (36-120 i believe).

I also like the idea od a Possessed shell but i think re-rolling the scatter AND the penetration dice is a little much, not so much OP as too many dice to roll and faff about with.

How about instead of a re-roll the daemon helps guide the shot so it only scatters 1D6?

So......



R: 36-120
S 9
AP2
Ordnance 1, Small Blast.
*Possessed Shell
**The daemonic entity possessing the cannon is able to affect the trajectory of the "shell" after firing. As a result shots from the cannon only scatter 1D6



I see some other funky gun looking bits on there too. Please post the rules for the tank as it looks epic!

I like the conversion, although the skeleton makes the gun look really unbalanced(i would have had the skeleton further back towards the turret)


For the statline,

I like Praxiss's idea of only scattering 1D6.


Diabolos Cannon

Range 72", Str9, AP2, Ordinance(1), Small Blast, Posessed Shell*, Spawn of Chaos**

*The Daemonically posessed shell is able to steer the shell in flight so that it is much more accurate. The blast only scatters a single D6.

**The Daemon posessing the shell will often attempt to posess a new host upon the impact, and destruction, of its current host the Daemon shell. Any non-vehicle model directly underneath the center hole of the blast must, before rolling to wound for the actual blast marker, pass a Toughness test. If the test is passed, they have resisted the Daemon's attempts to posess them. If the test is failed, the model is immediatly replaced with a Chaos Spawn model under the control of the Chaos player in exactly the same way as for Gift of Chaos. The new spawn doesn't take the hit from the Diabolos cannon, but the model it replaces is counted as slain for the purposes of panic tests.

Wow guys, thanks heaps for the feedback, i am loving some of these rules here!!!! Any aproxx points value?? and i will be uploading more pics as soon as construction is finished =]=]

What is the rest of the vehicle's stats?


Going off the pictures I would say,

Points Cost: 400 points

Type: Super-Heavy tank

AV 14/14/14

BS2

Transport Capacity: 12 models

Access Points: Front Assault Hatch, 2 side hatches

Structure Points: 3

Special Rules: Daemonic Posession(BS drop included in stats), Assault Vehicle

Weapons: 2 Sponson mounted Twin-linked Lascannons, Hull Mounted Reaper Autocannon, Turret mounted Diabolos Cannon

Diabolos Cannon

Range 72", Str9, AP2, Ordinance(1), Small Blast, Posessed Shell*, Spawn of Chaos**

*The Daemonically posessed shell is able to steer the shell in flight so that it is much more accurate. The blast only scatters a single D6.

**The Daemon posessing the shell will often attempt to posess a new host upon the impact, and destruction, of its current host the Daemon shell. Any non-vehicle model directly underneath the center hole of the blast must, before rolling to wound for the actual blast marker, pass a Toughness test. If the test is passed, they have resisted the Daemon's attempts to posess them. If the test is failed, the model is immediatly replaced with a Chaos Spawn model under the control of the Chaos player in exactly the same way as for Gift of Chaos. The new spawn doesn't take the hit from the Diabolos cannon, but the model it replaces is counted as slain for the purposes of panic tests.

What happens if the shell hits a monsterous creature or a multi-wound model...or an independent character? Is it essentially a str D (D for Diabolos!hehehe) weapon to living creatures then?

Not exactly, its a Toughness test. Most monsters or ICs have high toughness(4+)

BS2?!?! Daemonic Possession only takes chaos tanks down to BS3.

I love the gun but super heavys are generally used with the base model of a baneblade.

LOL
this is an awsome conversion.
i think all the demon earthshaker is a good idea.
The Diablo cannon is a good idea too.
likeing the way youve modified my possesed shell rules-keep up the good work guys.
the reason for 82" range was that 96 seemed a bit ecsessive and well 82 just seemed to fit.

RandomSauce19 wrote:I love the gun but super heavys are generally used with the base model of a baneblade.

To be fair there's no reason a super heavy has to be based off a BaneBlade chassis. If this were a normal sized LR i would agree with you. But now that it has been extended i would think it is at least the same length as a Baneblade, although maybe a little narrower.

Yeah it is an extended land raider, and i am thinking of adding some extra Armour to represent the higher values as well as beef it out slightly.
also, i would not like to go lower than BS3.
and the rules for the diabolos cannon are pretty much set for me
as for other stats i am wondering if chapter approved 2004 VDR are still viable, because the way the hull mounted TW MM is modeled (land raider exhausts mounted to the roof of the raider, see pic) - it is quite large, enough to say that it is mega (adding 150% to cost of weapon for 1+ to STR and AP) but because of its position in the middle of the hull, i would bet that its ammo store would greatly impact the transport cap.

Ok so final stats: (from Grey Templar)

Type: Super-Heavy tank

AV 14/14/14

BS3 (from possession)

Transport Capacity: ??? (need to work out due to TW mega MM

Access Points: unsure if needed

Structure Points: 3

Special Rules: Daemonic Posession(BS drop included in stats), Assault Vehicle

Weapons: 2 Sponson mounted Twin-linked Lascannons, Hull Mounted Reaper Autocannon, pintle storm bolter, Hull mounted twin-linked mega multi-melta (if chapter approved 2004 VDR still viable), Turret mounted Diabolos Cannon

Diabolos Cannon

Range 72", Str9, AP2, Ordinance(1), Small Blast, Posessed Shell*, Spawn of Chaos**

*The Daemonically posessed shell is able to steer the shell in flight so that it is much more accurate. The blast only scatters a single D6.

**The Daemon posessing the shell will often attempt to posess a new host upon the impact, and destruction, of its current host the Daemon shell. Any non-vehicle model directly underneath the center hole of the blast must, before rolling to wound for the actual blast marker, pass a Toughness test. If the test is passed, they have resisted the Daemon's attempts to posess them. If the test is failed, the model is immediatly replaced with a Chaos Spawn model under the control of the Chaos player in exactly the same way as for Gift of Chaos. The new spawn doesn't take the hit from the Diabolos cannon, but the model it replaces is counted as slain for the purposes of panic tests.


as for the total points cost, i have no idea yet as i would like to hear thoughts on the multi melta


Automatically Appended Next Post:
why on earth did i call it a TW multi melta, i mean TL - far out

Praxiss wrote:BS2?!?! Daemonic Possession only takes chaos tanks down to BS3.

Really?

I swear its BS2

Grey Templar wrote:

Praxiss wrote:BS2?!?! Daemonic Possession only takes chaos tanks down to BS3.

Really?

I swear its BS2

codex says " Daemonic Possession: The Vehicle's crew has been replaced by a Daemon, bound within the warped rune covered hull. The vehicle ignores shaken and stunned results altogether (though passengers are affected normally), but its BS is reduced to 3.

I think those stats are fine (and I still use VDR to get a starting point to playtest new vehicles from all the time, but playtesting > math for determining fair costs).

My only suggestion is that I think the Daemonic Shell rule is slightly too good since it only leaves a 0"-3" scatter, so I'd personally prefer simply treating it as twin-linked to represent the increased accuracy (also why create a new rule for more accurate fire when one already exists?).

That's my tuppence on it anyway

Jack

Ummm, wouldn't it be potentially a 6" scatter? and with a small blast that could easily be a clean miss.

So the Mege Multi-Melta would be S9 AP1? What kind of range would it be?



Also, could someone post a link to this VDR thing? It soudns interestgin btu i've never seen it.

I'm just not seeing the 3 structure points. It barely looks larger than the regular raider (The turret on the tank you linked significantly increases the size of the model). AV 14 all around and 2 structure points seems more reasonable to me.

Praxiss wrote:Ummm, wouldn't it be potentially a 6" scatter? and with a small blast that could easily be a clean miss.

So the Mege Multi-Melta would be S9 AP1? What kind of range would it be?

Also, could someone post a link to this VDR thing? It soudns interestgin btu i've never seen it.

You subtract a units BS from the scatter distance...not to be rude, but you might want to go refresh yourself on the rules as they are before trying to design or comment on the relative value of house rules/units.

Here s a link to an online VDR calculator: http://www.ageofstrife.com/tools/vdr/ I'm not sure where online you could find the rules themselves as they're copyrighted material.

Jack

Jackmojo wrote:

Praxiss wrote:Ummm, wouldn't it be potentially a 6" scatter? and with a small blast that could easily be a clean miss.

So the Mege Multi-Melta would be S9 AP1? What kind of range would it be?

Also, could someone post a link to this VDR thing? It soudns interestgin btu i've never seen it.

You subtract a units BS from the scatter distance...not to be rude, but you might want to go refresh yourself on the rules as they are before trying to design or comment on the relative value of house rules/units.

Here s a link to an online VDR calculator: http://www.ageofstrife.com/tools/vdr/ I'm not sure where online you could find the rules themselves as they're copyrighted material.

Jack

So dose yhis mean i would not be allowed to scan the VDR pages (FULL RULES - link is not full) from chapter approved 2004 and PM them to praxiss???

and yes to the stats of the MM - although i would prefer to sub the AP increase for range increase

i think that the skeleton should be moved closer to the base of the turret. Just cut ut the intervening section and reglue the skeleton part.

Jackmojo wrote:

Praxiss wrote:Ummm, wouldn't it be potentially a 6" scatter? and with a small blast that could easily be a clean miss.

So the Mege Multi-Melta would be S9 AP1? What kind of range would it be?

Also, could someone post a link to this VDR thing? It soudns interestgin btu i've never seen it.

You subtract a units BS from the scatter distance...not to be rude, but you might want to go refresh yourself on the rules as they are before trying to design or comment on the relative value of house rules/units.

Here s a link to an online VDR calculator: http://www.ageofstrife.com/tools/vdr/ I'm not sure where online you could find the rules themselves as they're copyrighted material.

Jack

Ah, i didn't realise you were inclusing the reduction in that (i was referrign to a 6" scatter before reduction), that's where i got confused.

Regardign range on the Meg Multi melta. I woudl think you coudl up the cost and increase the range just liek it does from melta to multi-melta....so:

Melta Gun: R12, S8, AP1
Multi-Melta: R24, S8, AP1
Mega Multi Melta: R36, S9, AP1

The next stage up fromn the MM is the IG Melta Cannon

Range 48"
Str 8
AP 1
Heavy 1, Blast Melta

That looks to me more like a TL MM.

Deadshot wrote:The next stage up fromn the MM is the IG Melta Cannon

Range 48"
Str 8
AP 1
Heavy 1, Blast Melta

That looks to me more like a TL MM.

Yeah it does look TL, but much bigger than a normal TL MM because it is the same size as LR exhaust so thats why i am saying its mega (chapter approved 2004) at a cost increase of +150% but instead of str and ap increase i would have str and range increase. does this sound acceptable???

Nah, I would just make the range longer. an increase in strength is mostly pointless and you run the risk of making it too good. you don't want it to give the finger to living metal or Ceramite Shielding.

I reccomend Range 36", Str8, AP1, Heavy 1 Twinlinked Melta.

Grey Templar wrote:Nah, I would just make the range longer. an increase in strength is mostly pointless and you run the risk of making it too good. you don't want it to give the finger to living metal or Ceramite Shielding.

I reccomend Range 36", Str8, AP1, Heavy 1 Twinlinked Melta.

Alright. awesome, so with these rules in mind - what points value would be agreeable for the entire construct, i imagine something in the range of 500-600 points???

all av = 14 2 tl lascannons storm bolter the multi melta and the diabolos cannon. along with possession (the rules you stated earlier in the topic) oh and about the transport cap???? yay or nay???

and i just have to wait for this ing reaper auto cannon and sealed fronting to arrive to arrive so i can finish the conversion

I would start with 500 points.

Transport capacity of 12. The extra space inside compared to a regular LR is taken up by all the additional ammo supplies.