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Hey guys,

Does fenris have such a thing as a pdf force or is it just the wolves their surfs and the warbands? In the books they mention islands of iron but not if these are defended by humans or astarte.

I don't believe Fenris has a PDF of any kind. The Wolves don't interfere with the tribes except when it comes to collecting up potential initiates. Plus I imagine the Space Wolves would be more than adequate to fend off the majority of marauding enemy fleets before they even hit orbit. Don't know about the "Islands of Iron" but they are probably manned by chapter serfs and small numbers of Astartes at most. Just a guess tho.

No, it doesn't have a PDF, it doesn't need one, I mean, would you invade Fenris?

Space Wolves generally leave the tribes of Fenris alone, too much interference and they won't be feral anymore and the SW's certainly don't want that.

They do have a pdf. They are called the kaerl. Quite a large force too. Read Battle of the Fang. It's about the Thousand Sons' invasion of Fenris.

That's news to me.

Small, Far Away wrote:No, it doesn't have a PDF, it doesn't need one, I mean, would you invade Fenris?

The Thousand Sons, the forces of Bucharis during the Apostasy, the Eclesiarchy, the forces of Chaos. All have tried, the Thousand Sons succeeded in taking the Fang.

iproxtaco wrote:

Small, Far Away wrote:No, it doesn't have a PDF, it doesn't need one, I mean, would you invade Fenris?

The Thousand Sons, the forces of Bucharis during the Apostasy, the Eclesiarchy, the forces of Chaos. All have tried, the Thousand Sons succeeded in taking the Fang.

They managed to take it for a little while thats because only one great company was there. when the rest got there the thousand sons were kicked out even with magnus there.

I kept reading PDF as in.. a PDF file.. I had no clue what you were on about.

I get it now. And well, it's been anwsered.

Daston wrote:Does fenris have such a thing as a pdf force or is it just the wolves their surfs and the warbands? In the books they mention islands of iron but not if these are defended by humans or astarte.

Fenris is guarded by the Space Wolves and their forces, the locals have little to no knowledge of the IoM/space/technology and are very few in number so couldn't be formed into PDFs. Serfs protect the Fang and Fenrisian space when few space marines are present.

The Islands of Iron are just that, islands with high metal deposits, it is were Fenrisian blacksmiths are trained and new Iron Priests are selected.

CajunMan wrote:They do have a pdf. They are called the kaerl.

That is part of the Space Wolves chapter force and not an actual PDF, the Kaerl do not count towards the native fenrisian population.

On top of the space wolves being parked there, Fenris doesn't need a pdf; Fenris' environment IS a pdf, or at least as good at killing things as one.

BluntmanDC wrote:

CajunMan wrote:They do have a pdf. They are called the kaerl.

That is part of the Space Wolves chapter force and not an actual PDF, the Kaerl do not count towards the native fenrisian population.

I'm confused. Are the kaerl Space Marines? Or are they humans who are 'part of the Space Wolves chapter force?'

Because if they're humans, who are part of a military force...the purpose of which is to defend, let's say, a planet, how are they not in fact a planetary defense force?

Jimsolo wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:

CajunMan wrote:They do have a pdf. They are called the kaerl.

That is part of the Space Wolves chapter force and not an actual PDF, the Kaerl do not count towards the native fenrisian population.

I'm confused. Are the kaerl Space Marines? Or are they humans who are 'part of the Space Wolves chapter force?'

Because if they're humans, who are part of a military force...the purpose of which is to defend, let's say, a planet, how are they not in fact a planetary defense force?

I haven't read Battle of the Fang yet, mind you, but with the description I found of the Kaerl--they're just a "standing defense force".

That does not necessarily mean that they are a PDF though. They might very well just be Chapter Serfs or failed Aspirants and their families.

Because thats not all they do. They are chapter serfs, used as troops, ship crew, servants, workers, and so on.

A pdf is a specific planetary militia, which they are not.

Jimsolo wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:

CajunMan wrote:They do have a pdf. They are called the kaerl.

That is part of the Space Wolves chapter force and not an actual PDF, the Kaerl do not count towards the native fenrisian population.

I'm confused. Are the kaerl Space Marines? Or are they humans who are 'part of the Space Wolves chapter force?'

Because if they're humans, who are part of a military force...the purpose of which is to defend, let's say, a planet, how are they not in fact a planetary defense force?

They're humans. I can't remember how they're recruited, I'm assuming they're the failed aspirants or descendants of failed aspirants. They're not the same organized force of PDF you see on populated worlds, since their only job really is to protect the Fang, but they're essentially the equivalent.

Sound like serfs. Which are certainly not PDF.

I think of them as human auxiliaries to the SW...

The're not PDF because they don't really defend the planet, there primary role is to guard the Fang.
I think.

Battle of the Fang only numbers them in the thousands if I recall. Given the low numbers and presence at the Fang itself and on Space Wolf ships (at least, Blackwing's ship had some in the book) I think they're more like Chapter Serfs.

CajunMan wrote:They do have a pdf. They are called the kaerl. Quite a large force too. Read Battle of the Fang. It's about the Thousand Sons' invasion of Fenris.

Jimsolo wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:

CajunMan wrote:They do have a pdf. They are called the kaerl.

That is part of the Space Wolves chapter force and not an actual PDF, the Kaerl do not count towards the native fenrisian population.

I'm confused. Are the kaerl Space Marines? Or are they humans who are 'part of the Space Wolves chapter force?'

Because if they're humans, who are part of a military force...the purpose of which is to defend, let's say, a planet, how are they not in fact a planetary defense force?

They defend and work in the Fang not the planet, they are not a milita. The term PDF is a name for a defined system of planetary defense used by the IoM, it does not mean any human with a gun that shoots at aliens is in the PDF.

Let's not go investing too much importance in names here. PDF is just a term, and its application varies from planet to planet - there's no "PDF standard" except "maybe has a lasgun and flak" and that isnt even fixed.

Especially in the case of Astartes home worlds, which tend to do things differently. I would be highly surprised if the Fenrisans didn't have some sort of armed force to back up the Wolves military might (and defend their starships) - which is in essence what a PDF does. It may not be IDENTICAL to the way we see the term typically used, but they still fill that role.

That is absolutely not what a PDF does.

What? PDFs don't protect worlds?

Edit: I think I see what you're talking about: I said that it makes sense for the Fenrisians to have an armed force to back up the Wolves. A PDF force is designed to back up and support other off-world forces, both on the ground and in space. And no, they don't usually leave their home worlds, but I also pointed out that PDFs don't follow any precise standards either (EG they vary from world to world.)

Connor MacLeod wrote:What? PDFs don't protect worlds?

Edit: I think I see what you're talking about: I said that it makes sense for the Fenrisians to have an armed force to back up the Wolves. A PDF force is designed to back up and support other off-world forces, both on the ground and in space. And no, they don't usually leave their home worlds, but I also pointed out that PDFs don't follow any precise standards either (EG they vary from world to world.)

Actually, they do have some "precise standards".
PDFs are responsible for protecting the planet upon which they are raised, and rarely leave their home worlds. We've seen some examples like the NorthCol forces in "Necropolis" which had experience fighting an uprising on one of the moons, but outside of that we've had nothing showing PDF leaving their home planet to fight elsewhere.

They are not there to "back up and support" other off-world forces. They are meant to be able to hold the line themselves against minor Xenos incursions and heretic/seditious activities, and if they cannot do that then they should at least be able to hold the line until the Guard arrive to back the PDF up.

And no, it makes no sense for the Fenrisians to have an armed force to back up the Wolves. Fenris' population has practically no contact with the Wolves. Those who do have contact with the Wolves then cut ties with the tribes proper.

Actually I remember from Hoare's "Rogue Star" that two local PDF governors were planning to go to war and using their own PDF forces to conduct it (they just needed to acquire sufficient transport capacity to pull it off, and the tau were abetting this local conflict.) Likewise the Karthans in Imperial armour IX utilized locally raised PDF and allied forces to conduct a war against Huron and the Astral Claws when the Munitorum and Navy refused to get involved in a 'local matter'.

I'm sure I could come up with other examples if I needed to and I dug enough, but it proves my point. But hey if that specific point matters so much to you I'll happily admit I should have phrased it better. The exact definition of a PDF doesn't really even matter since its silly to assume you can defend an entire planet with 1000-some troops, even if its 1000 supergiant Rambos.

So you're citing Andy Hoare, who also has written that the Tau destroyed a Warhound Titan with a boarding action?

And citing the Karthans is like if I were to say that because Cadia's "PDF" are full Imperial Guard Regiments, then every single PDF is. Situations are different.

What does one mistake Hoare makes have to do with what I was referencing? If we use "authors make mistakes" ot justify ignoring the entirety of their work, you can pretty much toss out any and every source except 1st Edition Rogue Trader, becuaes if you dig enough you'll find lots of 'errors' or 'contradictions.' It's not a very good argument to take.

Secondly, did they actually refer to the Karthan troops as Guard? They made specific reference to them as PDF, and they mentioned explicitly that the Munitorum (which pretty much operates and controls the Guard, not the Karthans) was staying out of the conflict, but I never see any mention of Guardsmen being used by the Karthans.

Connor MacLeod wrote:What does one mistake Hoare makes have to do with what I was referencing? If we use "authors make mistakes" ot justify ignoring the entirety of their work, you can pretty much toss out any and every source except 1st Edition Rogue Trader, becuaes if you dig enough you'll find lots of 'errors' or 'contradictions.' It's not a very good argument to take.

Hoare is known for taking extraordinary liberties in his novels--especially when the Tau are involved. That's what it has to do with what you referenced.

Secondly, did they actually refer to the Karthan troops as Guard? They made specific reference to them as PDF, and they mentioned explicitly that the Munitorum (which pretty much operates and controls the Guard, not the Karthans) was staying out of the conflict, but I never see any mention of Guardsmen being used by the Karthans.

I didn't say that Karthan troops were Guard.

I said that using them as an example is like if I were to say that "Because Cadia's PDF are full Imperial Guard Regiments, then every single PDF is". I then finished with "Situations are different".

Just because Kartha's PDF were used to fight Huron and his Astral Claws does not mean it's necessarily going to happen in every single situation.

Fenris is a death world why would it need a PDF?
The groups of nomads who continue to inhabit the planet are doing so at their own risk

Kanluwen wrote:
Hoare is known for taking extraordinary liberties in his novels--especially when the Tau are involved. That's what it has to do with what you referenced.

Yes, which makes him different from other authors how? I've seen people make similar claims about ABnett, Swallow, ADB, McNeill, Goto, etc. Just because an author screws up certain details or decides to do things differently than the Codexes state does not mean that the entire source/series/etc is wrong and should be tossed out, does it?

I didn't say that Karthan troops were Guard.

I said that using them as an example is like if I were to say that "Because Cadia's PDF are full Imperial Guard Regiments, then every single PDF is". I then finished with "Situations are different".

Just because Kartha's PDF were used to fight Huron and his Astral Claws does not mean it's necessarily going to happen in every single situation.

I never said that EVERY PDF has to be like Kartha or the ones from Rogue Star, did I?. I'm simply pointing out that it can happen, and it would fit the requirements for Fenris (even if it isn't called a PDF or act like most PDFs.)
I mean if we're going to insist on precise definitions, a PDF is basically representative of the planet's own armies, under the control of people from that planet (either the planetary commader, planetary nobles, both , etc.) and they can be used for any conceivable purpose, including waging war offplanet (if the transport issue can be dealt with, that is.)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Russ Mandarin wrote:Fenris is a death world why would it need a PDF?
The groups of nomads who continue to inhabit the planet are doing so at their own risk

Someone has to help man the starships, resist boarding actions of said ships, garrison the Fang (to help resist invasions of that) and so on. Just because the bulk of the planet is a total wasteland and most of it is feral tribes mean that the planet does not need some force that can defend it from attack. THere are too few Wolves on-planet to be EVERYWHERE, and Space Marines really aren't meant for Garrison duty (you'd probably need several Chapters' worth, if not a whole legion, to successfully garrison that anyhow.) It's not exactly as if the defense forces are required to serve out in the open on planet as part of their description.