Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I propose that in the Daemon's lore of Tzeentch change the spell type of Flickering Fire and Tzeentch's Firestorm to Direct Damage from Magic Missile.

The lore has 3 magic missiles and 1 DD currently. This means they can't be used if the caster is in melee. Horrors, when gaining spells, get all 4 of those spells. Which means if they are engaged in melee, they can only cast 1 spell at all, which is their least efficient one if you're in a low point game (not surrounded by fighting). The point cost to be able to get them high enough level to cast those spells is 462 pts (including standard/musician/champ). That's going to be the lion's share of your Core points for just about any game up to around 1500pts.

Further, every other mega spell in the BRB is a DD of some kind.

At the very least, Firestorm should be DD.

*********************

This came up as I was thinking about a low point army using horrors and I realized as soon as they were engaged, they basically couldn't cast. Considering most of their damage would come from those spells, it's just too easy to shut down half my points and turn them into 3/3 overpriced wusses.

This differs from, say, archers in that horrors have to all be in 1 mass to get those bonuses. And you have to take that incredible amount to get that high a lvl. 15 or less and you only have 1 spell, a magic missile. And that would still cost ~250pts for a "lvl 1 Wizard."

Horrors are a lot more durable than a traditional wizard. You can't throw a high init small unit into the front and just assassinate the horrors ability to cast.
Horror miscastings is the most friendly in the game. It doesn't cut into your remaining power dice pool, hit other wizards or drop huge templates of pain on your own unit.

For 210 points, you've got full command, and you're level 1.
But that's a bit of a straw man argument.
You're taking the most expensive worst situation, blowing it a little out of shape, and pretending that's the typical unit.
You can also get a level 1 for 120 points, which compared to other wizards (who aren't core) isn't that bad of a deal.

Yeah, in small games you don't get all the bells in whistles.
But in small games, you're opponent who doesn't play daemons is often stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Not a lot of armies can afford a decent general for leadership, a good magic phase, and a bsb. For daemons, it's easy, because you can augment your magic phase with core.

Cheap horror spam (4 units of 10), works pretty well with a lore master. Once you can't cast, it doesn't really matter anyway. The lore master can blow through all the power dice anyway.
In a horror based build, I've been on the receiving end of the Tzeench's Christmas (massed gift of chaos).
The army is backed up by the stubborn banner, the horrors go narrow to limit attacks, and then spam gifts.
It works surprisingly well, even in low point games.
Stubborn 8 with a re-roll and ward saves gives you a phase of magic missiles, followed by a phase or three of gifts.


Don't over-look the ease to cast flicking fire. You can spam 1 die cast it, and do pretty solid damage, pull dispel dice away and leave a lore master with an exposed opponent.

Don't look at horrors in a vacuum. They are great support to your other wizard choices to build a strong magic phase.

It's around 500 for a lvl 4. 72 for a lvl 1 with no command. Those are totally crap costs in any army book.

4 units of 10 is lvl 0. They are 3S 3T. You would be better with any other daemons if you're doing that, unless you're fighting Tomb Kings (flaming). Non-casting Horrors are worse in every way to their counterparts.

You need 16+ Horrors to get Gift. So again, you're 4 of 10 won't have that. It's 9+ casting for D6 D6S hits.

Horrors can't be support, they're too expensive. Herald has to pay for Loremaster or he has Tz too, and the same restrictions of not casting while engaged.


I put a 1000 pt army in the subforum that I think can work. Though Dwarves will crush it or anyone that can shut down magic.

DukeRustfield wrote:It's around 500 for a lvl 4. 72 for a lvl 1 with no command. Those are totally crap costs in any army book.
4 units of 10 is lvl 0. They are 3S 3T. You would be better with any other daemons if you're doing that, unless you're fighting Tomb Kings (flaming). Non-casting Horrors are worse in every way to their counterparts.
You need 16+ Horrors to get Gift. So again, you're 4 of 10 won't have that. It's 9+ casting for D6 D6S hits.
Horrors can't be support, they're too expensive. Herald has to pay for Loremaster or he has Tz too, and the same restrictions of not casting while engaged.
I put a 1000 pt army in the subforum that I think can work. Though Dwarves will crush it or anyone that can shut down magic.

Is my daemon book different than yours?
10 horrors are level 1, not level 0.
Did it get FAQ'ed?

-Matt

No, you're right. Not sure what I was looking at, honestly.

The spells are not bad. I use the unit as a bunker for my bsb 19 horrors, no champ and a bsb loremaster usually life or light. I will go after some fore infantry if the unit is small, weak, ect. also assist other units with this combat block.

Gift is nice, and an amazing way to clear pesky fanatics. Flickering fire is almost an every turn 1 dicer.