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If a trukk takes red paint job and moves 7", the boyz inside can still shoot because RPJ allows for an additional inch of movement without incurring the penalties thereof. On the opponent's turn, he decides to assault the trukk. What does he need to roll to hit?

I say 6+ because the vehicle has moved 7 inches, a speed which fits nicely into the BGB definition of 'cruising speed'. The rule for RPJ doesn't say that it extends combat speed's range, just that no penalties are incurred for moving an additional inch, so moving 7 inches is always cruising speed regardless of what color the vehicle is painted.

What say you?

-cgmckenzie

I would need to see the exact wording of RPJ to make a call...

I've thought about this one alot and I wanna say they need 6's ... Mainly because I play orks.

That said though, I don't think it specifies what a penalty is. Needing a 6 opposed to a 4+ can be defined as a penalty.

4+.

Assault hits are based on the Vehicles past "Speed class" not physical movement.

The Speed the Trukk moved last turn was Combat.

Even if the to-hit was based on the distance traveled and not the speed; RPJ "Counts-as" moving 1" less, so it would have still been 4+; because you cannot simultaneously both be X and Count as Y.

It seems to be a 4+ to hit it. The wording on RPJ suggests that you move an extra inch, but still count as moving 1" less. (The example in the book is "A vehicle could move 13" but still count as having moved 12") Basically, you're altering every speed class to be one inch extra - combat is 7", cruising is 13". You're still moving at combat speed, even if it is moving 7".

Kommissar Kel wrote:4+.

Assault hits are based on the Vehicles past "Speed class" not physical movement.

The Speed the Trukk moved last turn was Combat.

Even if the to-hit was based on the distance traveled and not the speed; RPJ "Counts-as" moving 1" less, so it would have still been 4+; because you cannot simultaneously both be X and Count as Y.

The rules are contradictory.

The table tells you that you hit vehicles moving at "combat speed" at a 4+ and vehicles that move at "cruising speed" at a 6+. However, the rules then go on to clarify that when you assess how far a vehicle has moved, only take into account the distance. Thus, it is clear that a Vehicle could move at "cruising speed" but only COUNT as having moved at combat speed if it only succeeded in moving 6" or less. To make things MORE confusing, "Fast" vehicles are clarified (in the Fast Vehicles section) to require 6's to hit if moving "Flat Out", regardless of how much distance they cover.

The basic rule seems to care more about displacement than the declared "movement mode" of the vehicle. The spirit of the rule seems to be that if a vehicle moved 6" or less (combat speed) that you require a 4+ to hit. If you moved 6" - 12" (cruising speed), or Flat Out, then you need 6+.

Red Paint Job lets Orks move an extra inch without any of the associated penalties for doing so. Regardless of what speed the Ork "declared" his movement to be, if he displaced more than 6", by the rules of vehicle assaults, it seems to me that you need 6's to hit.

If you declared your vehicle was going to move 12" forward, only to have it be immobilized 4" from its starting point, do you think it should be hit on 6's just because it moved at "Cruising Speed"? Orks are the same way, only in reverse.

the rules there are just re-itterating the Movement rules on page 57(which tells you what speed they are moving); and clarifies that driving in a circle does not constitute moving for assaults.

The speed you have moved is determined by your movement, otherwise a Trukk that moved 13" would not be able to fire(or one that moved 7" would not allow the embarked troops to fire)

Flat out is a move of more than 12" so a fast vehicle going flat out will have definitely moved more than 6" and therefore be hit on a 6+; the only reason that the additional text is there is that the Chart does not have "Flat-out" on it, nor any reference to moving Cruising "or higher"; it is simply Cruising.

Was honestly surprised this issue never made it into a FAQ. This issue can be argued both ways until the cows come home with both sides providing valid reasons and rules to support their stance.

It all comes down to how you define "penalty" in the DEX. To an ork player it is a penalty to hit a Trukk on a 6 vice a 4. To the guy on the other side of the table that only applies to the ability to fire or move that extra inch.

I have a trukk full of boyz with RPJ on one side of a 2" wide River(declared impassable pre-game) there is a Bridge near where my Trukk is and an objective on the other side. I move my trukk to get within 3" of the objective; total movement is 12.5". the distance from my starting point to my ending point with my trukk, as the crow flies, is 6.5".

Have I moved Cruising or Combat speed?

The reason for the note is that you cannot circle about or move back-and-forth just to gain the higher difficulty to hit in assault; but if you have to move in a similar matter just to maneuver(due to terrain or what have you) you still take the physical movement into account.

This is what the last sentence(which clarifies the meaning of the whole note) means; moving at cruising speed with a non-fast vehicle when you could have moved combat never "Helps".

We could do the exact same thing with a Battle wagon or a Boom-wagon; the Boom-wagon is more poignant because it has no transport capacity, and moving cruising instead of Combat is only detrimental; excepting for assault.

As an Ork player, I've always played it so that my opponent needs 4+, since the vehicle still counted as having moved at combat speed despite the extra inch of movement. It seemed obvious to me, so I've never really thought about it.

Would be interesting to see what others may have to say about it - though I'll most likely stick with 4+ until shown quite convincing arguments to the contrary.

Locclo wrote:It seems to be a 4+ to hit it. The wording on RPJ suggests that you move an extra inch, but still count as moving 1" less. (The example in the book is "A vehicle could move 13" but still count as having moved 12") Basically, you're altering every speed class to be one inch extra - combat is 7", cruising is 13". You're still moving at combat speed, even if it is moving 7".

Agreed, the codex says that the vehicle gets an extra inch of movement without incurring any penalties, basicaly move 1" count as stationary, move 7" count as 6" Combat Speed, move 13" count as 12" Cruising Speed, on a road move 19" count as 18" on road Cruising Speed, on road if fast move 25" count as 24" Flat Out, off road fast move 19" count at 18" Flat Out.

Following all of that if the vehicle moved 7" and is assaulted it moved at combat speed and is hit on a 4+

no, 1" does not count as stationary. Other than that you're right.

If you follow the example given in the book then yes it would. I personally don't play orks, I am helping a friend build his orks and strategies for his oks but have no desire ever to play them myself, I enjoy hunting them too much but that is what seems logical to me given the example provided in the codex on page 93.

RPJ lets the Ork vehicle add +1" to their move in the movement phase, if you are not moving you cannot gain the inch, so you cannot move, add +1", move 1 inch, and then claim to have not moved.

Whole point really is that you cannot move 1" and claim RPJ as not moving since RPJ only comes into effect when you move, so Combat to 7", cruising to 13", and flat out to 19" is the only options you ever gain from RPJ(ignore the Flat-out 13" dropped to cruising example and refer back to the rules for when it comes into effect).

It doesn't extend the ranges of combat/cruising speed, it simply allows for an extra inch to be moved without it negatively affecting the orks. When it moves 7", it is moving cruising speed but may fire weapons as if it were combat speed.

The 'to hit' chart in the BGB uses the named distances for classifying the roll needed, but a couple pages back it defines these names. Combat speed is less than 6 inches, cruising speed is more than 6 but less than 12, and flat out is 12-18. How far did the ork player move? 7", so cruising speed. That is what you need to look at when swinging at vehicles.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:It doesn't extend the ranges of combat/cruising speed, it simply allows for an extra inch to be moved without it negatively affecting the orks. When it moves 7", it is moving cruising speed but may fire weapons as if it were combat speed.

The 'to hit' chart in the BGB uses the named distances for classifying the roll needed, but a couple pages back it defines these names. Combat speed is less than 6 inches, cruising speed is more than 6 but less than 12, and flat out is 12-18. How far did the ork player move? 7", so cruising speed. That is what you need to look at when swinging at vehicles.

-cgmckenzie

So the example in the codex is wrong?

ORK CODEX, pg 93: Red Paint Job: "Ork vehicles with red paint jobs add +1 to their move in the Movement phase but do not incur penalties for this extra inch. For example, a vehicle could move 13 inches and still count as moving 12 inches."

What would you consider a penalty due to increased movement from one speed to another? Specifically, Combat to Cruising, and Cruising to Flat Out? I would say the penalties associated with these transitions are reduced firing capability by the vehicle and the passengers, and the increased restrictions on Embarking and Disembarking for Fast Vehicles. These penalties are ignored for an additional inch.

What would you consider a benefit due to increased movement? I would say the increased difficulty of hitting the vehicle in an Assault. Is this benefit ignored by an assaulting unit if it he vehicle moves the additional inch? No, because the rule does not say that the Vehicle does not enjoy the benefits of the increased movement.

A Vehicle with a Red Paint Job counts itself as having moved one less inch. A unit assaulting the vehicle does not count the Vehicle as having moved one less inch.

BGB, pg. 63

Rolling to Hit Against Vehicles:
"Note: when assessing how far a vehicle has moved, only take into account the actual distance covered from its original position."

So look at how far the vehicle actually moved. If the Trukk moved 7", that's Cruising Speed so 6 to hit.

I thought there was a post with this similar question before and from what I remembered the conclusion being was that the Orks get all the benefits and none of the negatives from the RPJ. I believe that if you moved 7" then it only counts as 6" for you for the purposes of shooting but 7" for your opponent for the purposes of needing 6's to hit.

ORK CODEX, pg 93: Red Paint Job wrote:Ork vehicles with red paint jobs add +1 to their move in the Movement phase but do not incur penalties for this extra inch. For example, a vehicle could move 13 inches and still count as moving 12 inches.

In all rule discussions I've read on this forum, one belief has stuck out. When it comes to rules "count as" is the same as "is".

If my RPJ truck moves 13", I count as moving 12".

If moving combat speed, and the actual physical distance moved is 7", I count as 6". For rules purposes distance Is 6", combat speed, 4+ to hit.

I play orks myself, but using RPJ to claim 6's to hit when moving 6"+1" is too much of an exploit.

That's the benefit of the RPJ. You get to count the extra distance for benefits, but not for its drawbacks.

The 'to hit' chart doesn't ask what speed class you traveled, just how far you moved. You moved combat speed at 7 inches but still moved 7 inches. 6's to hit.

-cgmckenzie

P.S. Holy thread necromancy, Batman!

Its a massive flaw by the rules... Both cases are right in both respects.. We decided hits on a 5+ as a compramise. As its the rules the make it unfathomable

Thread is being locked due to thread necromancy.