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It's looking more and more like the 2012 will have the Character restrictions across all lists. How will this affect your armies? I can see this being bigger against some more than others. Not sure it's going to hit Legion that hard though...

I see this as a double edged sword. On one side, it may bring down the power of some factions by forcing players to become more creative with their lists. On the other side, it'd be really hard for new players to be able to build lists since they'll have to buy quite a bit more models.

However, I think that it'll show up as an alternate format that TOs can use, not as the main format.

Aye, and I quote from my local PGer chatting on a different forum

Hysteresis wrote:The option to lift the character restrictions is retained as a variant in the Appendix, so it's down to individual TOs to restrict characters or not. The only time when this isn't an option is for Masters events. Yes, I know that's a rather significant exception.

It actually doesn't affect my lists all that much. The most-shared models for my armies, the Lord of the Feast and Megalith, can be swapped-out for other things really. This is especially since casters like eKaya, eKrueger, and pBaldur tend to run Themed, so this means they just don't have thos eoptions anyhow most itmes.

And stuff.

Special character restrictions are 'good' for the game overall, in that it does promote diversity in list building and you'll see certain modules like BLT+Banes be forcibly taken less, versus the must-take status that they currently enjoy.

It also makes some warcasters more viable simply because Eiryss makes it into fewer lists. Karchev, for example, can be taken more safely with fewer disruptor bolts flying around. The WGDS, by contrast, becomes less common without Joe.

Biggest impacts:
Khador WGDS and Great Bears
Cryx BLT+Banes
eEiryss (although pEiryss and eEiryss might be taken in different lists in 2 list formats)
Cygnar B13th
Trollbloods Janissa
Menoth Book
Skorne Molik Karn
Circle/Legion almost nothing, really, very few go-to character models

IMO I think it hits Warmachine harder than Hordes, and Mercs obviously is hit hardest of all.

Press Ganger that shared the changes locally said that Prime and Epic versions are no longer the considered the same when it comes to Character Restriction. So in a two list event, you could still see an Eiryss in both lists. The only faction I really see this as hurting more than a little is Mercenaries, since a good majority of their models are characters.

When this was first discussed, I went through the lists I was considering, and realized that it wasn't going to be all that bad, and that theme forces are going to see a little more play on my part. I'm more bothered by the fact that the Warjack that will replace the Avatar in my character restricted lists hasn't had any news since Wrath released since it's part of the rumored second chassis plastics.

sourclams wrote:Special character restrictions are 'good' for the game overall, in that it does promote diversity in list building and you'll see certain modules like BLT+Banes be forcibly taken less, versus the must-take status that they currently enjoy.

It also makes some warcasters more viable simply because Eiryss makes it into fewer lists. Karchev, for example, can be taken more safely with fewer disruptor bolts flying around. The WGDS, by contrast, becomes less common without Joe.

Biggest impacts:
Khador WGDS and Great Bears
Cryx BLT+Banes
eEiryss (although pEiryss and eEiryss might be taken in different lists in 2 list formats)
Cygnar B13th
Trollbloods Janissa
Menoth Book
Skorne Molik Karn
Circle/Legion almost nothing, really, very few go-to character models

IMO I think it hits Warmachine harder than Hordes, and Mercs obviously is hit hardest of all.

I would argue that it doesn't hit Mercs that hard at all because they have the
widest variety of character models to use. Sure, if you're only fielding privateers
or rhulic you're going to have trouble, but Mercs can bring the killer Shae
alpha strike list to the same tournament that they bring the Gorten Landslide
you off objectives list.

I think with the new Character Warbeasts Hordes is getting it will tamper them some but overall it's just a nice breakup of that auto include mindset a lot of people had given some models

Someone posted on the official forums that it's up to 2 lists and the character restrictions apply. In addition, a character with a p and e version (like Eiryss) can appear in both lists since they don't count as the same version.

From: http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?81723-Steamroller-2012-Rumours&p=1156839&viewfull=1#post1156839

Considering that my main faction is Skorne, i dont see any problem at all. I don't own Molik and never got Marketh to do anything remotly useful for his 3 points.
Therefore i dont see any problem at all.

Until Tiberion comes out, anyway.

Laughing Man wrote:Until Tiberion comes out, anyway.

Oh the amazing things that Titan will do...

Other changes of note

Killbox is going away

Deployments are now 7 inches for 1st, 10 inches to 2nd and 2nd player picks sides.

All objective markers are now Large Base

It kind of surprises me that there's no exemption for Mercs and Minions, considering they have so few options already, and it's not like they were tournament powerhouses to begin with

(Coming from a merc perspective)l most of the time, actually, there isn't a ton of merc/minion overlap; for instance, there 's one character overlap between searforge and talion, and similarly (IIRC) one between Blindwater and Thornfall.

Basically, it really punishes mercs/minions with narrow selections, but is pretty much okay for people with broader collections.

If you were only playing Blindwater, for instance, then you were already limiting yourself, so I don't have a real issue with the character limitation.

Why does there need to be a restriction at all?

I would like to see an option for the restriction to be listed in the case of people fielding two theme lists where the characters are required to fulfil tiers.

George Spiggott wrote:I would like to see an option for the restriction to be listed in the case of people fielding two theme lists where the characters are required to fulfil tiers.

Can you site some examples where that's a conflict?

Sparks wrote:Can you site some examples where that's a conflict?

pKaya and pKrueger both require Morriag.

George Spiggott wrote:I would like to see an option for the restriction to be listed in the case of people fielding two theme lists where the characters are required to fulfil tiers.

I don't think that's necessary. Character restriction is character restriction. So
you build one theme force with a character and you make your second list
a regular one without that character. It's called a restriction for a reason.

At least you're not restricted between prime and epic anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sparks wrote:Other changes of note

Killbox is going away

Killbox as a scenario is going away. However, some scenarios still have
a Killbox as part of the scenario.

All objective markers are now Large Base

Flag markers are now large bases. Not the same as an objective marker (which
has a particular definition).

Also, watch the next draft. Flags might be 40mm again.

Malfred wrote:Mercs can bring the killer Shae
alpha strike list to the same tournament that they bring the Gorten Landslide
you off objectives list.

Have you been reading my diary again?

Worth noting for Legion players is that Typhon is going away from dual-includes, probably prompting a higher influx of Carniveans in armies.

For my Cygnar lists I won't struggle too much. I can usually tell which list NEEDS the b13 and which list they are just nice in. I will have to make some deliberations on what list will get strangewayes but he dose not fit in every list anyway so it won't come up too often.

My mercs on the other hand are hit pretty hard. I play highborn and like to use nyss hunters with both Constance and Ashlyn for different reasons. With Constance they are melee troops capable of solid ranged attacks on the approach, but with Ashlyn they are primarily mobile ranged troops with hunter. There really aren't non-character alternatives to either of these roles right now and I am not buying an entire Shae tier list or a whole bunch of jacks just for a single rhulic caster. I may have to drop one of my two favorite merc casters for the slightly less enjoyable Broadside Bart if I chose to play competitively any time soon. I do not dislike Bart, he just wouldn't be in my first two picks if I was going to a tournament.
I know mercs as a whole are a faction and it's a 'choice' to play just one contract, but I do feel there's some disconnect between the contract system and the how mercs are viewed competitively.

For considering the prime and epic versions of characters different models, I assume warcasters are included in that (ie pKreoss/eKreoss as my two casters)? Second, does that mean you could see both variants of Eiryss in one list?

No, see page 39 of either Prime or Hordes. You can only have one of any named character in your army.

BTNeophyte wrote:For considering the prime and epic versions of characters different models, I assume warcasters are included in that (ie pKreoss/eKreoss as my two casters)?

This would be legal under SR2012 rules, which is a big change from SR2011. It actually opens up a surprising amount of combinations. I've wanted to run pVlad/eVlad, and pMakeda/eMakeda before. The Haleys are another good matchup.

Second, does that mean you could see both variants of Eiryss in one list?

No, because she's still a character.

Thanks

Dais wrote:For my Cygnar lists I won't struggle too much. I can usually tell which list NEEDS the b13 and which list they are just nice in. I will have to make some deliberations on what list will get strangewayes but he dose not fit in every list anyway so it won't come up too often.

My mercs on the other hand are hit pretty hard. I play highborn and like to use nyss hunters with both Constance and Ashlyn for different reasons. With Constance they are melee troops capable of solid ranged attacks on the approach, but with Ashlyn they are primarily mobile ranged troops with hunter. There really aren't non-character alternatives to either of these roles right now and I am not buying an entire Shae tier list or a whole bunch of jacks just for a single rhulic caster. I may have to drop one of my two favorite merc casters for the slightly less enjoyable Broadside Bart if I chose to play competitively any time soon. I do not dislike Bart, he just wouldn't be in my first two picks if I was going to a tournament.
I know mercs as a whole are a faction and it's a 'choice' to play just one contract, but I do feel there's some disconnect between the contract system and the how mercs are viewed competitively.

well, other than the speed, for Constance the horgenhold can be used in a similar "primary melee" roll. Not knowing your lists it would also allow horgenhold + piper to replace a full nyss.

I am most interested in the reserve rules.