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Just had someone point out that in the DE. Codex on page 91 in mentions that you can't buy a Dedicated transport for a unit that can't fit in it.

I see a lot of people buying the Ghost Ark, to be used with the 20 man Warrior squad, however someone else pointed out the Dark Eldar rule. Now, it says nothing like that in the Necron codex, but I see other people go by codex precedents in some incidents, so I'm curious if this invalidates the 20 man warrior squad tactic.

Thoughts?

of course you can take a transport that a squad can't fit into.

the precedent exists in the space marine codex, taking razorbacks for 10 man squads.

Horst wrote:of course you can take a transport that a squad can't fit into.

the precedent exists in the space marine codex, taking razorbacks for 10 man squads.

So, then the Dark Eldar codex bit, only affects their codex? Wouldn't this set up conflicting precedents?

I'd say that if a transport can only take a squad of 10 models then it can only take 10, if you want to take more take another transport (if capable of breaking the unit up) or a smaller squad, if however the rules state that an entire unit at maximum size is capable of taking the transport then it should be self explanatory that the transport is more than capable of taking the entire squad.

Sasori wrote:

Horst wrote:of course you can take a transport that a squad can't fit into.

the precedent exists in the space marine codex, taking razorbacks for 10 man squads.

So, then the Dark Eldar codex bit, only affects their codex? Wouldn't this set up conflicting precedents?

yes, the dark eldar codex does NOT interfere with the precedent set up by the marine codex. This is because the dark eldar has specific wording in it to limit the choices, while the marine codex does not. Therefore, current interpretation of the rules can only be that if the codex does not specify anything, than you can take a transport with any sized squad you want.

Yes Dark Eldar and Orks have transports that limit what sized units they can be taken with.

The loyalist marine codexes all allow such things with their Razorbacks and even back it up with GW FAQ questions.

So there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with taking a Ghost Ark with a 20-man Warrior unit, especially since it has beneficial properties to walking Warrior squads (recreating dead models).

Thanks for the responses everyone!

If it says you can buy a transport and does not list any limitations, they go for your life. Dark Eldar (and a select few other units) are the exception, not the rule.

Sasori wrote:So, then the Dark Eldar codex bit, only affects their codex? Wouldn't this set up conflicting precedents?

The Tyranid codex says the same thing, for certain units of certain sizes are allowed to take Mycetic Spores. The codex rules applies to the codex itself, not any others, so yes, Ghost Arks may be purchased for over-sized units.

Sasori wrote:So, then the Dark Eldar codex bit, only affects their codex? Wouldn't this set up conflicting precedents?

It's not an issue of precedents. Otherwise, you might as well argue that Imperial Guard have ATSKNF because Space Marines do. Each codex is a self-contained rulebook. Using precedents from one codex as a guide for how to interpret unclear rules is all well and good... but a rule that simply doesn't exist in one codex shouldn't be assumed just because a different army has such a rule.

Those codexes that have rules that limit the size of the unit taking a transport have a limit. Those that don't... don't.

So I can take a 10man squad, combat squad if off, and put half of it and a lets say a chaplain in a razorback?

Armless Failure wrote:So I can take a 10man squad, combat squad if off, and put half of it and a lets say a chaplain in a razorback?

Absolutely; this exact situation is covered by the FAQ as well:
"Q: Some Space Marine squads can take a Razorback as
a dedicated transport. A Razorback has a transport
capacity of six models. Can you still choose this as a
dedicated transport for a squad with more than six
models? (p77)
A: Yes."

Having a rhino and deciding to combat squad is also covered for disallowing both combat squads starting in the rhino:

"Q: If I split a Space Marine squad into two combat
squads, can both embark into or be deployed in the
same dedicated transport? (p51)
A: No. They are no longer the same unit and a
transport vehicle can only carry a single infantry squad."

Them FAQs can be really helpful, even if they sometime make no sense.

You also can't do that if you are keeping them in Reserve. Only works if you're deploying them on the table.

Actually no. It says you choose to seperate them on deployment. Deployment can be coming in from reserves. So you can hold the squad in reserve and then have half walk on and the other half ride the razorback in. It follows drop pods. When a drop pod deploys that is when you choose if they will combat squad. They are in reserve. And that is in the FAQ.

balsak_da_mighty wrote:Actually no. It says you choose to seperate them on deployment. Deployment can be coming in from reserves. So you can hold the squad in reserve and then have half walk on and the other half ride the razorback in. It follows drop pods. When a drop pod deploys that is when you choose if they will combat squad. They are in reserve. And that is in the FAQ.

The Drop Pod is a different issue, since you are specifically allowed by the Drop Pod rules to split them when they climb out.

That doesn't work for other transport vehicles, because you have to declare who is in the vehicle when you place them in Reserve. Since you don't get to split the unit until they are deployed, you can't put half in the Razorback and walk the other half on, since at the time you declare who is in the transport they are a single unit. They're either all in, or all out.

balsak_da_mighty wrote:Actually no. It says you choose to seperate them on deployment. Deployment can be coming in from reserves. So you can hold the squad in reserve and then have half walk on and the other half ride the razorback in. It follows drop pods. When a drop pod deploys that is when you choose if they will combat squad. They are in reserve. And that is in the FAQ.

You're backwards on this. since you combat squad upon deployment (arrival from Reserves) that's exactly why you CANNOT have a combat squad arrive from reserve in a Razorback.

Because the rules for Reserve say that you must declare which unit is going into reserves and arriving via transport and until the unit arrives from reserve it cannot combat squad and therefore you can't declare that one of the combat squads are riding in the razorback (because they aren't a combat squad until they arrive).

That's why the drop pod works, because the unit arrives as a single unit and THEN the drop pod rules specifically allow the unit to split AFTER it arrives on the table.

Which is why GW has this FAQ answer in their SM FAQs:

Q: Can you take a Drop Pod with a 10-man squad and
then put a combat squad in it, deploying the other
combat squad on the table, or leave it in reserve but
not in the Drop Pod? (p69)
A: No, because squads that are placed in reserve may
not break down into combat squads.

Where does it say that you can't hold half a squad in reserves if I combat squad? There is nothing in the FAQ. The space marine codex doesn't say anything if the like in it.

What happens in Dawn of war missions. I have my squads set up to combat, one half is in the Rhino/Back the other is on foot with heavy weapon. So are you saying I can't combat them at all? Its pretty much the same effect with deploying half on the board, say the heavy weapon squad. Then I have the other squad in reserve to maybe outflank if I can. ie. With Khan lets say.

There is nothing in the FAQ that would change this line of thinking.

You know that part of Combat Squad where it says "when you deploy..."

Cross reference that with the rules for Reserves, which says "instead of deploying..."

THAT is why you cannot have half a combat squad in reserve.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You know that part of Combat Squad where it says "when you deploy..."

Cross reference that with the rules for Reserves, which says "instead of deploying..."

THAT is why you cannot have half a combat squad in reserve.

Also the FAQ question involves 1/2 of the squad in the transport, on table, and the other half in reserves...

So yeah, the FAQ certainly does say something of the like.

So basically if you play the DOW mission then you can't combat squad at all then. Is that what you are saying? Because that makes no sense what so ever.

I think you are being to literal in the wording.

The reason GW FAQ'd the drop pod issue was it was not covered in the rules this is. The squad was deployed as a whole with the drop pod. So they had to clearify that.

When a unit arrives from reserve, it is deploying. It is then that you combat squad.

balsak_da_mighty wrote:So basically if you play the DOW mission then you can't combat squad at all then. Is that what you are saying? Because that makes no sense what so ever.

I think you are being to literal in the wording.

The reason GW FAQ'd the drop pod issue was it was not covered in the rules this is. The squad was deployed as a whole with the drop pod. So they had to clearify that.

you can combat squad just Fine in DoW:

You can take your 10-man squad, deploy them, Comabt squad at deployment, and that is your 2 troops units.

You can hold them in reserve and Combat Squad them on reserve deployment.

You can have them enter first turn and Combat squad on that deployment.

Well I don't see that as being right. It can be done one way but not the other.

Re read it say "units held in reserve cannot be split into combat squads and vice versa".

So by that DOW mission means you can't combat them at all. Unless it is the only squad you deploy and split them into combat squads. This does not make tactical sense and game play sense. So another words I hate DOW with my stand and shoot marine army as now I can't have my squads the way they are intended. Half on foot and half in backs. Now I will have empty Razorbacks and full ten man squads sitting there so my heavy weapon can fire. Not a very good tactical move really

"units held in reserve cannot be split into combat squads and vice versa".

What? Where are you getting this from. Combat squadding is done on deployment. Reserving defers deployment. When the reserves arrive, they deploy. Thus, when they arrive, they can combat squad.

htj wrote:

"units held in reserve cannot be split into combat squads and vice versa".

What? Where are you getting this from. Combat squadding is done on deployment. Reserving defers deployment. When the reserves arrive, they deploy. Thus, why they arrive, they can combat squad.

the answer in the FAQ taken out of context with the question does indeed indicates that units in reserve can never combat squad(I raised this issue when the FAQ first came out, as without the context of the question; the answer is broad sweeping).

If you add in the context of the question you see that the answer is referring to combat squading while in reserves; entering from reserves is deploying and deploying is when you combat squad, so you cannot deploy half, and have the other half in reserves as the unit has not yet deployed(you have attempted to deploy only 1/2).

You can Combat squad a unit deploying from reserves, but the whole unit has to be held in reserve ad prepared in whatever manner together as 1 whole(and will be rolled for availability as such).

So you could not take 10 terminators in reserve and declare 1 combat squad deep striking with the other walking on normally, nor can you do so with outflanking scout combat squad ad 1 walking; they either all walk on, or all Outflank/deep strike.

You also could not hold a 10 man tac squad with 1/2 in a razorback and the other half walking on.

This is because a unit in reserve cannot combat squad; but a unit deploying from reserves can without a problem.

htj wrote:

"units held in reserve cannot be split into combat squads and vice versa".

What? Where are you getting this from. Combat squadding is done on deployment. Reserving defers deployment. When the reserves arrive, they deploy. Thus, why they arrive, they can combat squad.

Last sentence of the second paragraph under combat squading in the DA codex.

Ah, I see where the confusion comes from now. Perhaps a better way of putting it is that a unit may not combat squad whilst in reserve, but may combat squad when it arrives from reserve. We need an FAQ for the FAQ.

But yeah, as you say, CS on deployment, not before.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

htj wrote:

"units held in reserve cannot be split into combat squads and vice versa".

What? Where are you getting this from. Combat squadding is done on deployment. Reserving defers deployment. When the reserves arrive, they deploy. Thus, why they arrive, they can combat squad.

the answer in the FAQ taken out of context with the question does indeed indicates that units in reserve can never combat squad(I raised this issue when the FAQ first came out, as without the context of the question; the answer is broad sweeping).

If you add in the context of the question you see that the answer is referring to combat squading while in reserves; entering from reserves is deploying and deploying is when you combat squad, so you cannot deploy half, and have the other half in reserves as the unit has not yet deployed(you have attempted to deploy only 1/2).

You can Combat squad a unit deploying from reserves, but the whole unit has to be held in reserve ad prepared in whatever manner together as 1 whole(and will be rolled for availability as such).

So you could not take 10 terminators in reserve and declare 1 combat squad deep striking with the other walking on normally, nor can you do so with outflanking scout combat squad ad 1 walking; they either all walk on, or all Outflank/deep strike.

You also could not hold a 10 man tac squad with 1/2 in a razorback and the other half walking on.

This is because a unit in reserve cannot combat squad; but a unit deploying from reserves can without a problem.

Ok makes some kinda sense. But where is there a hard copy of this ruling? There is nothing of the sort in the FAQ about it other then the Drop pod as mentioned earlier. Seems to me a damned if you do damned if you don't type of situation. Kinda confusing.

balsak_da_mighty wrote:

htj wrote:

"units held in reserve cannot be split into combat squads and vice versa".

What? Where are you getting this from. Combat squadding is done on deployment. Reserving defers deployment. When the reserves arrive, they deploy. Thus, why they arrive, they can combat squad.

Last sentence of the second paragraph under combat squading in the DA codex.

That is not the second paragraph; it is the third. the Second is the List.

And the FAQ says to Ignore that sentence altogether:

Dark Angels FAQ, First entry in errata wrote: Page 23 – Combat Squads
The third paragraphʼs last sentence should be ignored,
and the penultimate sentence should be changed to “If you
decide to break the unit down, then each Combat Squad is
treated as a separate unit for all game purposes from that
point.”

The bit about the penultimate sentence change indicates which paragraph is the third if you are having trouble; the DA codex thrid paragraph second from last sentence has extra verbiage about scoring models added to that sentence.

The FAQ portion has the same Q&A about Half a squad in a drop pod and half on the table:

Q. Can you take a Drop Pod with a 10-man squad and
then put a combat squad in it, deploying the other combat
squad on the table, or leave it in reserve but not in the
Drop Pod? (p35)
A. No, because squads that are placed in reserve may not
break down into combat squads.

balsak_da_mighty wrote:Last sentence of the second paragraph under combat squading in the DA codex.

Yes, Dark Angels have a slightly more restrictive version of the Combat Squads rule than everyone else does. Dark Angels units that are put in Reserve can not split. For everyone else, the FAQ has clarified that they can't be split when they are put in Reserve (because that is not deployment) but the Combat Squad rules do allow them to split when they arrive.