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I've entered a quandary lately - I want to update my merc army, but I don't really have the extra 50-150 dollars to buy stuff right now. I was thinking about putting together my own models out of the stuff I have lying around - I play warhammer 40k and have a lot of old heroscape/d&d minis i like to play around with - but I wanted to know what anyone else thought of the idea. Noone locally seems to care, but if someone on the other side of the table was playing with non-PP models, what would you do?
I'm not really looking for input on how to do so, but on what sort of things would you be ok/not ok with? I've seen a lot of work being done for 40k in terms of modifying and customized units, but I haven't seen anything of the sort for, well, most other games.
The models in question are Steelhead Halbardiers, and Steelhead Cavalry. I'm thinking about adding another 10 halbardiers and at least a squad of cavalry, but man are those horses expensive. especially to my poor college student budget

Casual play I see nothing wrong with it. Try to make them represent what they are to the best of your ability and I'd say its pretty sweet.

As far as a Tournament goes, I don't think it will fly so if that is a concern for you, there it is. I believe conversion need to be at least 50% original PP model so there is a guideline.

I for one don't mind proxies in casual games as long as the models are as identifiable to what they represent as possible and uniform. Just a collection of small based models to me does not a unit make. However, like Hivemind pointed out, don't be surprised if they aren't allow into a tournament or league.

"Proxies"?

oh come ON!
I've been to several forums with a similar question, and people throw this term around a LOT. I am getting sick and tired of it.
A proxie is a placeholder model. A model that will get replaced by whatever it is proxying eventually.

There is a distinct line between proxying and converting/building to replace.

I get that the rules in tournaments can be strict. Fine. But don't use the term "proxy" as soon as someone discusses using a non-standard model for it.

People seem to think that I'm gonna throw a space marine in screaming yellow colours and huge power armour into my Everblight and call him a shepherd. That is proxying.

something like THIS!
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195596&page=26

is not proxying. Not by ANY MEANS.

It might not be allowed in a tournament (if you do something similar in warmahordes), but, it is up to each tournament organizer's discretion to allow or disallow a model. I say check with him first.
If he thinks you can make it work, go for it. If he doesn't, don't field the unit or keep a bought-and-proper version ready, although I hate it when you are forced to do something that boring.

Sure, I get it, easely recognisable. But don't just assume people aren't going to put work in to change a model sufficiently for there not to BE any confusion about what it is.
Hood, stick with large, large hook, single model base, a shepherd card on the sidelines. To me, that would, most likely be a shepherd. If I want to know, I ask beforehand, and it is something very easy to remember.
Warmahordes are WYSIWYG, there wont be no hidden weapons under a rock, there wont be a unit of horsies that might be armed one way or another. If the rule says weapon X, then weapon X must be on the model, prefferably very visibly at that.

Deathjacks:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/377719.page

The non-painted one is, technically, not legal in tournaments under these rules. The painted one is. The painted one, to me, is the harder to recognise one.
It is up to the organiser to decide. Always double check, and, with a community that is still kinda cranky about conversions, try to bring a backup if you bring converted.

I do say GO FOR IT! If you can make it abundantly clear what units they are and make sure that there can be no misunderstandings.

Well, for me, and I might be outside the norm of the standard usage of the term, proxie would be meaning in place of the original. The original being an actual PP miniature sculpted specifically for that model's entry. In your example, a Shepard model. A hooded guy with a hook on a 30mm base that was built to take the place of the Shepard, making it a proxie to the original. In your Deathjack example, Steamroller Tournament rules state:

A converted model must contain a majority of parts from the WARMACHINE or HORDES model for which the rules were written. For example, a Testament of Menoth conversion must be composed mostly of parts from the Testament of Menoth model. The end result of any conversion must be clearly identifiable as the intended miniature and must accurately represent its weapons and equipment as listed in its rules.

That unpainted Deathjack would suit that description just fine and I would challenge anyone to see it throw from a tournament as being usable, at least one using PP rules. The Deathjack is still a Deathjack constructed from the Deathjack kit.

If it was a Deathjack made from a Thunderhead kit made to look all Cryx-like, they my logic is that it is a model in place of the original, thus making it a proxie. I would still be more than happy to play against it, but for all intents and purposes, it is not a Deathjack model. There are differences in proxie levels. This example and using a Carnifex or a soda can to represent that same Deathjack are different levels of proxying.

Again, this just follows my own definition of "proxie" to which all are free to disagree with.

The unpainted deathjack has arms made of machinewraiths and the entire lower body sculpted, as well as half its head converted. Less than half of what you see is made up of the deathjack kit. As such, if you are nitpicky enough, that model does not follow the rules.

Also, unfortunately, that is not "outside of the norm", seen plenty of people talk of anything not PP as a proxy, and to me, that term has always carried a sort of demeaning, well, meaning. Simply because it does not aknowledge the work that went into the model, and dismisses it as not being good enough.

Again. The bretonnian army made of goblins. If seen from a PP perspective. Do you think it would be allowed?
The rules say no. A tournament organiser would likely say yes, which overrules them. But, the rules say no.
Would you allow the army in your tournament?

I commend anyone who goes above and beyond in creating a truly unique model. I don't see how the term Proxy is viewed as being a negative. Might be a personal view or maybe folks look down on it for one reason or another IDK.

I think Urban Dictionary's definition works well:

proxy

To have sex with someone by proxy, ie. their brother or sister.

"I had sex with Sandra Bullock's cousin's cousin Heather Bullock and thus I proxied Sandra Bullock."

"Dude, your wife's sister is hot.. How's it feel to proxy that?"

Well, here's the other thing; there's several different formats for Warmachine/Hordes tournaments. Hardcore, as an example, is 7 minute timed turns and very punishing of errors in judgment/mistakes that leave you out of position.

In that format, opponents need to be able to know exactly what they are looking at with nothing more than a glance. Even though that gobbo army (or it's WM/H equivalent, let's go with the Gobbo motif) is very nice, and very well done, it would not be fair to that person's opponent if he charged his Deathjack model within 2" of a Gobber-rebuilt Juggernaut chassis, thinking it was a Titan Gladiator that he could go past, only to find out 'no, that's my Sentry with Locker, as denoted by this little shield token next to his base'.

In some events extensive Counts-As (which is what I consider those Bret Goblins, not proxy or conversion) is probably more okay. But in WFB/40k games it is simply more straightforward what stuff 'is': without even playing WFB or Bretonnians I would guess that the flying squigs are pegasus/griffon riders, the mounted gobbos are knights, and the ranked up guys are some form of crapfintry. If I saw the same thing as a pIrusk list, am I sure which one is Irusk and which one is Kovnik Joe? Behemoth is pretty obvious (I should hope) but is that goblin on a squig Drakhun or Fenris? Is that Aiyana &Holt or the two mechanics I didn't kill?

I think extensive counts-as in PP tournament formats is more like artfully reproduced Magic cards than I do as an alternatively sculpted Warhams army.

1. Is it the original model? Y/N
2. If Y model is not a proxy.
3. If N the model is a proxy.


Conversions aren't proxies unless they exceed 50%. At that point you're basically converting whatever the majority is made of.

Given that PP's rules say you have to have a normal version of the model in case its a problem in order to play that model, it really lends additional weight to the term "proxy". Your overly "converted" model or substitute model is a proxy to the regular model you have in the case the proxy is denied.



Having a proxy called a proxy is not an insult. It's just accurate.

Refusing, however, to call a carnivean a carnivean is.

If I put down hours and hours on converting a model
The tournament organiser then says a-ok
And then somebody claims it is a proxy, I am going to take offense.

A proxy, for me, is, and always will be something negative. You don't proxy in 40k and fantasy in big tournaments, but a unit of horrors can be made from a unit of ghouls, and they are still horrors, not proxies.
A proxie is a soda bottle standing in as a tyrant. It is pDenny from the starterbox standing in as a Skarlock. That is proxy, that is not viable in a tournament setting.

But an extensive conversion, such as the goblin army, is not proxy.
Also, as you said, you can't identify the units because you're not a warhammer fantasy player. At a glance, I recognize each and every unit in that goblin army, I can tell you the names and the main abillities of each and every one of those units. If someone did something similar, kept the main recognizable feats of a model, so that it is clear, even if it wasn't a PP model, you would still call foul? Would you still call it a proxy? To me, the thing on the table, if I can identify it, is that model, it IS that warbeast or caster or unit.

A proxy, is a sodacan, an unpainted item that you would not bring to a gaming group, but something you use, as a temporary replacement to try out something you don't own.
A conversion is a model, it is the intended model, it will not be replaced when you can afford the "proper" PP model, and it should damn well be respected.

I don't see the term proxy as demeaning in and of itself. I also don't get why the two terms seem to be mutually exclusive?

If your using a model other then the origonal to represent a unit then you are using a proxy. If that model is a soda can for a carnafex then your proxying a soda can. If that model is some amazing peice of work far beyond the beck and skill of the great majority of hobbiest then he is proxying a converted model.

Using the term proxy has never (in my eyes anyway) been ment as a derogitory to the work and effort someone has put into their army.

Can't really comment on the tournament thing as Im still fairly new to warmahordes and never been to any tournament for any table top game.

~Zero~

Again, if you're that upset about the proper use of a term that's something you need to address with yourself. It's kind of like being very offended when someone calls your garden centerpiece a tree. It might be the greatest, rarest tree in the world but it is still a tree.

A proxy is a proxy. It doesn't matter how much attention to detail is present. For all intents and purposes, the soda can and some other model are effectively the same thing. One just looks better, to you.


For example, there is a pretty good miniature out there of a woman with a fur cap and a spear. She basically looks like a better version of the Manhunter alternate, which is female. If I used that model however it would be a proxy for my regular manhunter rule, which by PP's rules I would be obligated to have available.

There are different issues with the model I mentioned, like its weapons not matching entirely. It could be insinuated to have Reach, and only 1 initial attack. In truth the manhunter doesn't have Reach, and has x2 initials. It could maybe substitute as a female version of the character manhunter Yuri the Axe, but, his model is very specific.



It's probably just best to come to terms as early as possible with the fact that in competitive scenes PP doesn't support much conversion. That's just a fact of the game. Doesn't make a difference in friendly games unless it becomes a problem for your opponents.

The conversions rules are becoming more open. The latest Steamroller 2012 BETA set has their rules on conversions (google and you should be able to find a pdf of it), but also state that the event organizers may make exceptions to the rules.

The most important thing to remember is that PP does not want any model to be ambiguous when its put on the table, so your opponents are not confused as to what it is in an organized play setting.

One of the best things that PP did for conversions is define the volume of a base size for LOS in the MK2 rules rather than the model itself. So someone can add basing, and repose, and convert without LOS issues.

Around here, proxying is no problem.