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I'm making this post regarding the new FAQs recently posted by GW in defense of Njal.

Quickly, here is the FAQed rule:

Q: Can models embarked upon a vehicle use its fire points to draw line of sight to a unit to use special rules or wargear (other than shooting)?
A: No.

So, you can't target anything with wargear or special rules when in a vehicle.


Here is an excerpt from Njal's Lord of Tempests ability, from the codex:

At the beginning of Njals turn... .... ...Only enemy models in Njal's line of sight can be affected by the tempest's effects.

My question is, if Njal is in a vehicle at the beginning of your turn (when njal's Lord of Tempests roll would happen), do you still get the roll for Lord of Tempests? You are not drawing line of sight with anything UNTIL you know what the effect is. Therefore, if you get a "Vengeful Tornado" result, for example, the effect happens at the end of his SHOOTING phase. Thus, you could drop him off, and the effect would happen. Obviously you couldn't take advantage of this unless you DID drop him off. If you don't drop him off, according to his rule in the codex, you wouldn't be able to draw line of sight to anything.

Yes, you get to roll, as the ability itself does not require LOS to roll.

Then you can choose to get out or not depending on the roll.

Pretre seems to have it correct.

This new ruling still craps on Njal, but it doesn't completely negate his power, at least. Depending on what you roll, you can decide whether or not you want to take advantage of it or not.

EDIT: Appreciate the quick response.

Somehow, I don't think many people will have much sympathy for the Space Wolves.

Or coteaz and his nurfed rule lol

I can see the argument going both ways for "I've Been Expecting You"
Seeing as it allows you to shoot at a unit (in their movement phase), and the restriction is on non-shooting abilities.
On the other hand, he would first need LOS.

Really? You would roll and then decide not to get out? Nevermind...

Homer

Happyjew - it requires you to have LOS first, and THEN you can try to shoot - so it isnt a shooting power

Never mind, I'm apparently an idiot. I've been misreading the FAQ. I thought it was asking about special abilities that are not shooting special abilities (which IBEY can be argued to be).

My question is does Chain Lightning count as shooting for this purpose? If not, then he can't use it from inside a transport, but it would also mean that an opponent cannot take cover saves against the effect since it's not a shooting attack. If so, then it can still be used while in a transport, but it would also allow cover. I don't have my codex on hand at the moment though so I need to read the rules in question more carefully before I make an argument one way or the other.

pretre wrote:Yes, you get to roll, as the ability itself does not require LOS to roll.

Then you can choose to get out or not depending on the roll.

Yeah the FAQ specifically refers to abilities which require LOS in order to function.

Aldarionn wrote:My question is does Chain Lightning count as shooting for this purpose?

Yes, as I read it. Range + strength + ap = shooting.

Aldarionn wrote:My question is does Chain Lightning count as shooting for this purpose? If not, then he can't use it from inside a transport, but it would also mean that an opponent cannot take cover saves against the effect since it's not a shooting attack.

Not true. You can take cover saves against all wounds, except those from CC - because the CC rules explicitly say you can't.

Also, what rigeld2 said.

kirsanth wrote:

Aldarionn wrote:My question is does Chain Lightning count as shooting for this purpose?

Yes, as I read it. Range + strength + ap = shooting.

That's how I would rule it. The Lord of Tempest's powers that have a weapon profile should be useable from inside a transport, but the ones that affect enemy models in other ways should not.

Aldarionn wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Aldarionn wrote:My question is does Chain Lightning count as shooting for this purpose?

Yes, as I read it. Range + strength + ap = shooting.

That's how I would rule it. The Lord of Tempest's powers that have a weapon profile should be useable from inside a transport, but the ones that affect enemy models in other ways should not.

I used him in a game the other night, and due to the wtf FAQ moment I've decided against using him in the forseeable future.

Aldarionn wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Aldarionn wrote:My question is does Chain Lightning count as shooting for this purpose?

Yes, as I read it. Range + strength + ap = shooting.

That's how I would rule it. The Lord of Tempest's powers that have a weapon profile should be useable from inside a transport, but the ones that affect enemy models in other ways should not.

I don't think this is the case. While you are correct that many of the powers appear to be shooting powers, they all stem from using Lord of Tempests - which requires line of sight to get its effects. And according to the new FAQ, you can't use fire points to draw line of sight for special rules.

autopilot wrote:they all stem from using Lord of Tempests - which requires line of sight to get its effects.

Why?

Assuming I am missing something here. . .

kirsanth wrote:

autopilot wrote:they all stem from using Lord of Tempests - which requires line of sight to get its effects.

Why?

Assuming I am missing something here. . .

No, you're fine.

From my codex, at the very end of the Lord of Tempests description:

Only enemy models in Njal's line of sight can be affected by the tempest's effects.

So, basically.

Inside, none of the powers work?

Outside, they be fine?

autopilot wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

autopilot wrote:they all stem from using Lord of Tempests - which requires line of sight to get its effects.

Why?

Assuming I am missing something here. . .

No, you're fine.

From my codex, at the very end of the Lord of Tempests description:

Only enemy models in Njal's line of sight can be affected by the tempest's effects.

Yes, but that's a blanket statement for all of the effects of Lord of Tempest's. If some of the effects are shooting effects, and some are not, he should be able to draw Line of Sight using a fire point for the shooting effects regardless of the fact that they all stem from a special rule. The FAQ reads:

Q: Can models embarked upon a vehicle use its fire points to draw line of sight to a unit to use special rules or wargear (other than shooting)?
A: No.

So we clearly see that special rules and wargear that are used for shooting attacks can still draw Line of Sight, but those used for other purposes cannot. Lord of Tempest's is a special rule that has both Shooting and Non-Shooting effects. The fact that it is a special rule itself is irrelevant, the effects it creates are what matters. Chain Lightning and Vengeful Tornado still function just fine and you can draw Line of Sight from a transport to use them. any other non-shooting effects (lowering enemy BS by 1 within 24", the difficult terrain effect, etc....) cannot draw Line of Sight from within the transport.

Makes sense to me.

Aldarionn wrote:

autopilot wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

autopilot wrote:they all stem from using Lord of Tempests - which requires line of sight to get its effects.

Why?

Assuming I am missing something here. . .

No, you're fine.

From my codex, at the very end of the Lord of Tempests description:

Only enemy models in Njal's line of sight can be affected by the tempest's effects.

Yes, but that's a blanket statement for all of the effects of Lord of Tempest's. If some of the effects are shooting effects, and some are not, he should be able to draw Line of Sight using a fire point for the shooting effects regardless of the fact that they all stem from a special rule. The FAQ reads:

Q: Can models embarked upon a vehicle use its fire points to draw line of sight to a unit to use special rules or wargear (other than shooting)?
A: No.

So we clearly see that special rules and wargear that are used for shooting attacks can still draw Line of Sight, but those used for other purposes cannot. Lord of Tempest's is a special rule that has both Shooting and Non-Shooting effects. The fact that it is a special rule itself is irrelevant, the effects it creates are what matters. Chain Lightning and Vengeful Tornado still function just fine and you can draw Line of Sight from a transport to use them. any other non-shooting effects (lowering enemy BS by 1 within 24", the difficult terrain effect, etc....) cannot draw Line of Sight from within the transport.

Makes sense to me.

Makes Sense to me

The shooting attacks are the only ones I really plan ahead for.

If I get a lucky result ''5'', i'll just hop Njal out

Does that mean "I've Been Expecting You" would work, as it is a shooting special ability? I've only seen it argued that it would not, since it requires LoS.

It requires LOS, then allows a unit to shoot

It is not, in itself, a shooting power

nosferatu1001 wrote:It requires LOS, then allows a unit to shoot

It is not, in itself, a shooting power

I guess this is how I understood Njal's Lord of Tempests to work because of the blanket statement saying everything required line of sight. What Aldarionn said does make sense, though.

The two are inherently different abilities.

The difference is that I've Been Expecting You is a non-shooting ability that requires Line of Sight, and the effect is to allow a unit to make a shooting attack. Because the ability itself is not a shooting attack, it may not use a fire point to draw line of sight.

Lord of Tempests is an ability that requires Line of Sight but has a variable effect based on a die roll, so sometimes it acts like a shooting attack, and sometimes it does not. When it acts like a shooting attack, it can use a fire point to draw line of sight, but when it does not act like a shooting attack it may not use a fire point to draw line of sight.

Does that make more sense?

Ha, yeah, it made sense when you first wrote it, I just had never thought of it that way. I looked at the ability like a missile launcher, for lack of a better example. A missile launcher can fire a krak or frag missile. However, if you can't shoot that turn, you can't fire either one. Similarly, Lord of Tempests has multiple effects, so I figured that the blanket statement in its description blanket-ed all of the effects.

That make sense?

At this point I think we've shown all we can, and discussed what we could, its just up to your own interpretation. I'm going to lean on yours. ;-)

Does Njal not have a ..a .. cyber Raven ( chooser of the slain ?) that he can place and draw LOS from ?

The Cyber-Familiar doesnt allow him to use its LOS, just, if they both have LOS to the same target, Njal gets +1 BS.