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So I played a game today that was supposed to be a friendly fun game. Stupid me - it was against our local rules lawyer and of course he had his puppet partner pull out some hard cheese (purple sun's zenith on my ogre kingdoms partner).

So no more frindly lists. I want to build the most competitive, broken and un-fun list he will ever face and only ever play that list.

First off - my opponent:

He plays high elves and favors magic and archers. He also tends to run a large block of sword masters and some dragon princes (the foot guys - may be phoenix guard? he hasn't used them much).

At lower point values he almost always runs a huge unit of archers and bunkers a wizard lord in it. He always runs 2 bolt throwers and thats about it...

So I'm looking for a few point values - but here is what i was thinking about at 1,000 points:

Total: 998

LORDS: 145

Lvl 2 Wizard of Shadow w/ Seal

CORE: 313

48 Swordsmen with Full Command

SPECIAL: 425

Cannon

Cannon

Mortar

Mortar

Mortar

RARE: 115

Helstorm Rocket Battery


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At 2000 Points:

Total: 1999

LORDS: 495

Arch Lecter on Altar, Speculum,

Lvl 4 wizard Lord Shadow - Orb of Thunder

HEROES: 340

Lvl 2 Wizard Shadow w/ Seal

Engineer

Engineer

Engineer

CORE: 524

30 Flagellants+prophet

34 Swordsmen+musician

SPECIAL: 525

Cannon

Cannon

Cannon

Mortar

Mortar

Mortar

RARE: 115

Helstorm Rockets

Few things
For your 1k a engineer is a must IMO
and for your 2k why are you using orb of thumder?

Trying to stop flying things - I have 55 points before adding the orb and 4 swordsmen to the bunker - not sure hwat to do with the points.

Also I'm just not sure how to fit an engineer into the 1K list without taking out the mage outright :/

Well you're in luck as you can drop you swordsmen down to mincore and you will have exactly enough points to pop the engineer in there

wow - your right, for some reason i hadn't seen it. An engineer it is.

I'm not really familiar with the Empire, so please take my advice with a grain of salt. I did watch a game of HE vs Empire at my FLGS earlier tonight, as I went to pick up things for my Deamons army. So I watched and talk to some of the guys there while games were going on. Empire player was running something unique model against a magic heavy HE list(couldn't remember the point value...sorry) He had a Captain of the Empire with Heavy Armor, Enchanted Shield and Aldred's Casket of Sorcery on a Pegasus...now I don't know if that's actually any good but the HE player did seem pretty annoyed. So hopefully this helps but remember take with a grain of salt.

Teheheh a Capatus with Casket is just a great little build! Fly around steal spells and maybe during a later turn use some of said spells. Only problem is he is like 150 points or so

Questions: how much do high elf archers and sea guard cost again? And Empire handgunners/crossbowmen/huntsman?

Now, on to suggestions:

A little mathhammer might prove whether or not you could out-BS shoot him, via superior numbers. Swordmasters do not like shooting.

Swordsmen have higher WS and I, right? That's not going to do a lick of good against High Elves. I'd save on the points and get that many more halberdiers. S4 versus T3. They'll take 16% more casualties from shooting and from Swordmasters, and 33% more versus S3 CC, but they'll kill more and there'll be more of them.


Against flyers, I'd suggest a small ranged unit. Eagles don't like bullets. Or arrows.

Does his big squishy character sport a lot of protection, or more magical offensive? Long Rifles?
Also, I've seen Pidgeon Bombs do some pretty sick things, as weird as it is. Plus, they are hilarious.

Life Magic is probably better than Shadow against Elves. Earth Blood/Flesh to Stone will help you weather the storm; even Swordmasters will have a hard time cracking you then. Throne of Vines will count for a lot, due to high pt/model in his units. Dwellers rocks, since it'll kill half of them, maybe his Wizard, and his units are big. The only way I think you'd be kind of screwed is if you rolled Awakening of the Wood and Regrowth; swap Awakening for Earth Blood and do whatever, I guess.

I also don't think you need that many cannons. With Dragon Princes as their only super-efficient target, I'd take two, tops.

Get a BSB, stat. Looks like the Armour of Meteoric Iron and a great weapon would serve him well against those elves.

Why not the Steam Tank? Keep it away from the Dragon Princes or make sure it gets the charge on them, and watch it eat up his army. Unless he's packing Shadow or Death.

Flagellants should rock pretty hard against these guys (re-roll hits and maybe wounds with flails versus T3) as long as there's enough of them. But they are pretty pricey.

Steamtanks do just roll HE armies solo as do dual helblaster with engineer friends

So, I'd do something like:

- lvl4 Wizard with some serious protective gear. Lore of Life (around 300, I think)

- a BSB with the best armour/Ward money can buy and a great weapon, if possible (150ish)
- a lvl2 Wizard with a Dispel Scroll, probably more Life? Or a Warrior Priest with some defensive ability (150ish)

- 50 Halberdiers + full command (275)
-15 crossbowmen (240)
- 50 Halberdiers + full command (275)
-15 crossbowmen (240)

- Mortar (75)
- Mortar (75)
- Mortar (75)

- Steam Tank (300)

That gives you somewhere in the range of 300pts to play with, I believe.
I'd clear up some points for an Arch Lector + re-rollable armour, the Speculum, and the Altar.

Maybe you don't need three mortars, but against Elves (especially Sword Masters), they're awesome. The crossbowmen might not be all that useful, or at least not as well-spent as some skirmish archers to handle those Eagles. A smallish unit of knights would probably serve you well against anything beyond those Sword Masters.
Thoughts?

Take the rod of power. Its 35 points and is probably the best magic item in the game, You can potentially get 3 extra dispel dice/power dice each turn. I usually ally this with an archie and warrior priests and this can guarantee you will shut down his magic and have a more fruitful one yourself.

going up against elves w big magic i would recomend 2 arch lectors and 4 warrior priests if the they still get the bonus dispel dice (2 for a lector and 1 for wp) gets you 8 dispel dice add in a lvl2 wizard w/dispel scroll and you can shut down a good portion of his magic,

blocks of halberds w/ warrior priests have served me well in the past, knightly orders w/gw vs elves rip them to shreds since i3 you will hit them last anyways

talk your opponent into a 2400pt battle and dual steam tank w/ popemobile for almighty cheese


i agree with the casket of sorcery even on a wp it is good to have for magic defence

I don't think you need anything even close to the dispelling power that the above would offer (and two 6's or the Book will ruin your day anyway). Besides, one lvl4 Wizard is nearly as good on the magic-defense as an Arch Lector, but also a beast on the offense. If he's running Archers/Sea Guard and Sword Masters, you'll work wonders with Dwellers. That, and Earth Blood/Flesh to Stone are potent enough that he'll have to decide which ones to save dice for.

Don't take lore of shdow take lore of heavens that way you can reduce his shooting

you probably don't want to hear this, but I think you're over-reacting or your personalities don't gel. By defination a HE list witha bolt thrower is a kind player trying to break you into the game. 2 bolt throwers is over generous. It sounds like you haven't played much yourself.

His list (as you have described it) is extremely weak. Combat is your friend. If you're just playing 1k pts, he's going to have a hard time fielding much of an army. lvl3 HE mage is 23~ pts by himself. 25% core isn't going to get you that many archers and whatever is left is not going to get you very many of any of the other specials as they are too expensive to build enough of. If he's playing 2k and you and your friend are playing 1k each, then you set yourself up for a rough time. The game's not really designed to be played that way.

Like I said, it sounds like you don't know the rules very well, he was trying to teach you the finer points of the rules (of which there are many) and you got your feelings hurt because you didn't like his tone. Playing games with someone other than your friend will teach you about different tactics more than putting together a "hard" list.

Uh...wow. I mean, that might be the case. But maybe not. If people are inexperienced, what difference does that make? We've been asked to help make a more competitive list, not make assumptions and sort-of-kind-of insult the OP.

You're right about playing with other people, though. It is the best way to learn.

Also, I challenge anyone to come up with a lore for Empire that's better than Life versus High Elves. Buff those Halberdiers, heal those knights, Dwellers that wizard, etc.

Haha, yeah life is great for empire vs high elves but to say that no other lore is better is hilarious. I mean every lore has different tools, even lore of fire is awesome, just see how pissed off your opponent will be when you flame cage some swordmasters.