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Here's my thoughts on rules for the Death Wing if/when their codex gets released. Rules for Belial and DW termies:

Firstly, Belial:

200 points.

WS5 / BS5 / T5 / S4 / W3 / A3 / I5 LD10 / Sv 2+/5++

Fearless, Independent Character, Rites of Battle (as per current codex), Deathwing Company Standard (as per current codex)

Master of the Deathwing - allows Terminators to be taken as troops choices instead of elites. Replaces Terminators with Terminator Strike Squads in the Elites section.

Wargear - Sword of Scilence and SB but also able to switch to TH/SS or twin LC (as per current codex), Terminator Armour. Iron Halo

So, my thinking here is that Belial's main draw is the ability to take a full termie army and I don't think that should be changed. Also, I don't think he should be the codex' most uber HQ so I've made him not too much better than he is now, just 1 extra toughness as I would follow the current codex and not give him EW but he is supposed to be the DA most uber, amazing, terminator armour wearing super dude and T5 suits him. So, he's not brilliant but not bad - basically an upgraded terminator and I've made him 200 points for his ability to make termies troops ( Crowe for the GK is 150 points) and also for his ability to unlock Terminator Strike Squads. Without these abilities, he'd maybe be worth 150 but please let me know whether you think I've costed him appropriately when you've seen....


Terminator Strike Squad:

Elite choice, only available if Belial is present in the army. 5 man squad only - 250 points. Fearless.

WS5 / BS5 / S4 / T4 / W1 / I4 / A2 / Ld10 / SV2+/5++

Wargear: as per current codex (SB and powerfist but the sarge has a power sword). They can mix and match in exactly the same way as now with the chainfist still costing +5 points and heavy flamer +5 points but the assault cannon would be 20 points and the cyclone missile launcher would be 20 points. Terminator Strike Squads can take 2 heavy weapons per squad.

Deathwing Assault: Terminator Strike Squads and any attached IC can, if they choose, Deep Strike on the first turn and only roll 1 dice for scatter. If they choose not to arrive on the first turn then they may arrive in any subsequent turn but will have to roll for reserves as normal. Terminator Strike Squads held in reserve count towards the total number of units held in reserve for the purposes of Deathwing Support Assault.

FYI, Deathwing Support Assault would be what Deathwing Assault is currently and Terminators could deploy via that method if they so chose. Only Terminator Strike Squads would have access to my new version of Deathwing Assault - regular terminators would now be moved to Deathwing Support Assault.

So, my thinking here is that Death wing should have access to the best terminators in the game but sadly, GK already have Paladins so I've tried to make them different to them. I think I have succeeded tactically, certainly in terms of Deep Striking - bear in mind that they can only ever be 5 man squads and still cannot assault after Deep Strike. I also made sure that they can still scatter but only in a DoAesque way with 1 dice. Also, to avoid Death wing assault being too good, if they don't do it first turn, then they have to roll to come in on subsequent turns. I have also declined to give them assault grenades. They can take 2 heavy weapons per squad and the cyclone and assault cannon are only 20 points per piece but that cost is offset by the fact that each termie is worth 50 points, so a 5 man squad with 2 cyclones would be 290 points and also please bear in mind that Belial MUST be taken to even field one of these squads. The WS5, BS5 and LD10 befits their status as the elite of the elite of the elite in the DA army. For the record, I would keep the normal termies the same as the current DA codex but price them as per the space marine codex but with the cheaper heavy weapon cost of the Terminator Strike Squads I have outlined above. I would also allow them to take 10 men per squad but only 1 heavy per 5 obviously.

So, please let me know what you think. This is an idea I have been fermenting in my head for a while and really like it - critique it for me!

LOVE IT

Firstly, you might as well boost Belial up to WS6 like all the other SM captains. As far as I know, nothing in his fluff hints that he's extraordinarily tough. I'd toss him an Iron Halo like other captains. Given that he leads the Deathwing, Rites of Battle is kinda pointless. He's hideously expensive compared to the current Belial. You're adding seventy points for no major benefit.

Aren't all DA terminators part of the Deathwing? If so, having two different kinds is just arbitrary. Having two different kinds of Deathwing Assault is just too confusing. I'd drop the cost of your Strike Terminators down to 45, and just call them Deathwing Terminators.

RustyKnight wrote:Firstly, you might as well boost Belial up to WS6 like all the other SM captains. As far as I know, nothing in his fluff hints that he's extraordinarily tough. I'd toss him an Iron Halo like other captains. Given that he leads the Deathwing, Rites of Battle is kinda pointless. He's hideously expensive compared to the current Belial. You're adding seventy points for no major benefit.

Aren't all DA terminators part of the Deathwing? If so, having two different kinds is just arbitrary. Having two different kinds of Deathwing Assault is just too confusing. I'd drop the cost of your Strike Terminators down to 45, and just call them Deathwing Terminators.

The idea behind Belial just being WS5 / BS5 / T5 is to try to keep him kind of in line with how he is now - a decent HQ for his points but not OP. Belial's main draw here is that he makes terminators troops and unlocks terminator strike squads. I wanted to give him T5 just to help him avoid being ID'd by S8 weapons as I didn't give him EW and I costed him at 200 points because I was thinking that if Castellan Crowe is only 150, then surely Belial is worth more. Plus, 130 as he is now is really cheap I think. I also wanted to avoid making him too cheap - same with the terminator strike squads so that you can field a very strong army but without it being cheesy due to the cost. I have added in the iron halo - thanks for that.

As for the terminator strike squads, I felt that 50 points each is a good cost because dropping three squads of them on turn 1 with very little scatter, perhaps with 2 ICs in tow is a very powerful option, especially since you can take 2 heavy weapons in a 5 man squad and at BS5, they really could unload some decent fire into a target - imagine 4 krak missiles from a 5 man TH/SS squad, or 8 S6 rending shots the turn you arrive. Multiply that by 3 and I think they need to be expensive. I need to differentiate them from the normal terminators as they are WS5 and BS5 plus they can only be taken in squads of 5 and have two heavy weapons per 5 whereas the normal ones can go into 10 man squads and only have 1 heavy per 5. You really think that they should be 45 points? What about Belial - what should he cost?

I wrote a longwinded reply, but my general point is that you should price each model for their own ability, as such if you think the ability to take terminators as troops is too cheap, make them cost more. If your strike squads are OP then make them more. Dont add the cost to the character as that hurts the army at low point levels and helps it at high point levels (making it universally difficult to cost).

Given your stats/wargear etc, i would cost belail at 155-175 (but i am also irked by his stat line, give him +1 ws to keep him in line with sm and why +1 t? Still the points assume +1 t and +1 ws, with 155 being +1 ws but no +1 t and 175 being +1 to both), terminator strike squads (I would personally drop the additional deep strike, not streamlined enough) would be 45 for non th/ss and 50 for th/ss. Give ability to take apothecary and banner (is that priced into belails price?) to one squad. For troop price them as normal, but +5 per th/ss.

Anyways my .02

EDIT: I forgot to mention special weapons! I would say that Cyclone Missile Launchers and assault cannons should be 25, the current cost is a bit too low. While we are making changes I would change libs to be more like standard SM (+1 ld but 24" bubble psychic hood) and make typhoons different, my idea, 5 or 6+ inv (call it a jink save) but + 10-15 points. keeps them closer or equal to marines while giving them a not useless ability.

TBH I'm not sure I like this idea. First of all what warrants having Belial bumped up 70 points? You give him +1 T (?), and an Iron Halo that in all honesty he should of been given in the first place. I would pay 35 points max for that.
Onto the DW Terminators, I think that the idea for the revised deathwing assault is great! It may actually encourage people to use the rule instead of being an extra goody that's more or less ignored. My only real grip with the unit is that it's an elite on the FOC. That may not sound like much but I play 2 raiders in 1500 point matches and that means I can only use 3 DW Termi squads, which means I have only 3 scoring squads. That being so I highly doubt I'd use the uber DW squad except in high point matches (apoc and such) as just about all my lists are highly tight for points and scoring units. Perhaps make it a command squad upgrade/other or something, it would add more flavor rather than the current 'I'll just chuck an apothecary in there' command squads we have now.

He's a SM captain, he's WS6 with an Iron halo and T4. There's no other Marine (Except Meph and that ultramarine Chaplin) that have higher toughness

Allow him to take regular shooty terminators as troops and keep assault Terminators as Elites.

Keeping their command squads fun and mixable along with an apothecary keeps them flexible

RustyKnight wrote: As far as I know, nothing in his fluff hints that he's extraordinarily tough. .

Ghaz nearly cut him in half, he survived, thats tougher than the fluff makes lysander out to be

but i agree with the general consensus here, WS 6, 4++ is a SM captain.

with the changes you made and the above stat increase, 150-170pts max