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Looking for suggestions on how I could better equip the units listed and suggestions for possible tactics with the list and possible blind spots.
Do not want to hear "get more crisis suits and broadsides"
I use a loose strategy of reserving the piranha, one flank and the other standard reserve combined with the positional relay. Piranha serve as my primary anti-mech and work as a deterrent to opponants eager to rush my units. I have 4 units with markerlights, 7 units able to pin, and 3 set up for a possible night fight (the new necrons got me involved in a 5 round nightfight recently....its worth the 12 or so points

2000pt #3
HQ 226
Shas'el
plasma rifle, twin linked flamer, bonding knife, hard wired drone controler, hard wired multi-tracker,iridium armor, stimulant Injector
Bodyguard
twin linked plasma rifle, positional relay
Elite 114
Crisis Battlesuit
team leader, twin linked missile pod, fusion blaster, hard wired multi-tracker, hard wired blacksun filter
Crisis Battlesuit
twin linked missile pods, blacksun filter
Elite 140
x2 Stealthsuit
drone controller, x2 gun drones
Team leader
Fusion blaster, bonding knife, multi-tracker, markerlight, hard-wired blacksun filter
Elite 140
x2 Stealthsuit
drone controller, x2 gun drones
Team leader
Fusion blaster, bonding knife, multi-tracker, markerlight, hard-wired blacksun filter
Troop 145
x6 Fire Warrior
pusle rifle
Devilfish
disruption pod
Troop 105
x7 Fire Warrior
pulse rifle
Shas'ui
pulse rifle, bonding knife, markerlight
Fast attack 240
x3 Piranha
x2 fusion blaster, x1 burst cannon, x2 seeker missile,x3 target array, x3 disruption pods
Fast attack 240
x3 Piranha
x2 fusion blaster, x1 burst cannon, x2 seeker missile,x3 target array, x3 disruption pods
Fast attack 145
x5 Pathfinders
Devilfish
disruption pod
Heavy 165
Hammerhead Gunship
rail gun, x2 burst cannon, disruption pod, multi-tracker
Heavy 165
Hammerhead Gunship
rail gun, x2 burst cannon, disruption pod, multi-tracker
Heavy 175
Hammerhead Gunship
rail gun, smart missile system, disruption pod, multi-tracker

#1: The HQ suit with PosR shoud have long range weapons only.... TLMP and bury them with other Rains... The reason for this is with a PR and Flamers you will be tempted to use your higher BS and get closer to use them.... Range is what will help that PosR survive.

#2 your Piranha are running mixed weapon systems... Means someone is doing nothing when you fire at Tanks etc.. Might as well make them all FB. The BC will just bounce of AV12 and its a waste of 70 points....

#3 you only have 2 troop choices so I wonder why you opted to give one team a ML and no fish. You should be placing those 2 scoring units in reserve for the whole game... not just preying no one shoots at you. I understand you will most likely use the PF fish for them but with a ML why bother?

Thats about all I can come up with since you dont want to run more suits and broadsides.....

#1: The HQ suit with PosR shoud have long range weapons only.... TLMP and bury them with other Rains... The reason for this is with a PR and Flamers you will be tempted to use your higher BS and get closer to use them.... Range is what will help that PosR survive.

#2 your Piranha are running mixed weapon systems... Means someone is doing nothing when you fire at Tanks etc.. Might as well make them all FB. The BC will just bounce of AV12 and its a waste of 70 points....

#3 you only have 2 troop choices so I wonder why you opted to give one team a ML and no fish. You should be placing those 2 scoring units in reserve for the whole game... not just preying no one shoots at you. I understand you will most likely use the PF fish for them but with a ML why bother?

1. Rational:
A. It is more likely to be targeted if it has the greater threat range of missle pods.
B. I use the HQ as a backfield defense against deepstrikes.

2. Rational:
A. Piranha armaments require close ranges to be effective but have the moblity allowing you to target rear armor.
B. BC work on the vast majority of vehicles and has a higher rate of fire than FB. For those it doesnt work on you have 2 FB

3. Rational:
I agree with you on the ideal being 2 reserved troops in DF, but I had to make a trade off for pathfinders.
A. I do make use of the PF fish for the 2nd FW squad. Instead of having a foot slogging FW enter from reserve to find the PF fish down and not being able to reach objectives I made the choice not to reserve them, fill out the unit a bit for the likely event of having to disembark and chance them geting wiped out.
B. I find an extra markerlight more useful than an extra pair of boots .

HQ:
You essentially have a 226p HQ unit that won't be doing anything but babysitting a Positional Relay for 2 turns. If there are no deepstrikers, he won't be shooting. If there are deepstrikers, he'll shoot for (maybe) 1 turn before he's wrecked in assault. Even if he does manage to survive (which may be likely with the 2+ save), being tied in combat prevents you from shooting those deepstrikers. He'll likely be dead after your combat phase allowing the deepstrikers to move onto you more vulnerable units.

It more or less just looks like the unit is suffering from a serious identity crisis. If you want him to babysit the PosR, hide him behind BLoS terrain w/ missile pods (pop out, shoot, pop back in). If you want him to distract deepstrikers, ditch the suit bodyguard, and give him vectored retro thrusters so you can at least have a chance of getting out of combat (to shoot).

As it stands now, the unit is incredibly expensive and it does not need to be.

Elite:
Again, your suits have gadgets, but are suffering heavily from a lack of efficiency. Why do you have a fusion blaster on your team leader? Do you plan on getting them within 6" of enemy vehicles? If so, why do you have T.L. missile pods on the suit accompanying him? And why blacksun filters? On the other hand, if you plan on using them like deathrains, why keep the fusion blaster? Its unlikely that you'll find yourself within effective range anyway. You could give them both fusion blasters and missile pods, which would make a little bit more sense as they could be deepstriking harassment units, but as it stands now they don't have Fusion Blaster VoF to reliably fit that role. Again, I feel like these units don't know exactly what their role is.

As far as the Stealth suits are concerned, I feel like if you're planning to use them as markerlight mules, you ought to ditch the fusion blaster, give them some marker drones and hang out FAR from enemy troops where stealth will really shine. Or, if you want them to bust open tanks, make them as cheap as possible and infiltrate them in for can-opening duty. Again, they seem to be trying to do too many things. Keep it simple, have your units do ONE thing well, not many things poorly.

Troops:
Your second troop choice confuses me. What is their role? If they're being used to snipe objectives, the markerlight will never be used (as they will always be moving). If they're not going to be sniping objectives, then you need bodies in the squad so that they can stand at least a turn of shooting w/o running away. As it stands now, you lose two guys and you're taking a morale check. They may not fail their LD check, but if they do, there's another turn of not shooting the markerlight. When you rally, if they were meant to capture objectives (considering you only have 2 troops, they need to be) then you're moving again, and again not shooting your markerlight.

Fast Attack:
Something I said in my critique of your last list, but there is no need for disruption pods on Fusion Blaster Piranha. You're either within 12 inches, or you're moving flat out. The disruption pod will essentially never be used. I also agree with the previous poster in saying that you should equip them all the same. Its only 5 points.

Lets look at the stats for penetrating a vehicle with the BC vs the FB:

BC: # of shots * probability of hits * probability of pen
=3*(4/6)*(1/6) = 33.3%
FB: (not being within 6, which you really should be w/ piranha mobility)
=1*(4/6)*(4/6) = 44.4%

Lets look at the probably to wreck:
BC: # of shots * probability of hits * [(probability of pen * probability of wreck) + (probability of glance * probability of glance-wreck)]
=3*(4/6)*[(1/6)*(2/6)+0) = 11.1 %
FB: (not being within 6, but with AP1)
1*(4/6)*[(4/6)*(3/6)+(5/6)*(1/6)] = 31.5 %

I could keep going but math-hammer gets dulls. Basically, under nearly any circumstance, (again, not even factoring the fact that you should be within 6") the FB is better than the BC for taking down tanks, no matter what armour you're facing. So if we want to use our piranha for tank busting (as you said you did) you may as well pay the 5 points.

Seeker missiles are what you make of them, some people are fans, and I've seen some cool things done with them on Piranha, but they are extremely expensive for what they provide. Do with them what you will.



I guess to try and sum up what I've been trying to convey throughout the comments; this list has too much fat. It's interesting to be sure, but inefficient. If you're not using broadsides or crisis suits, you NEED to be as efficient as possible. Look at some of the other 2000p list out there, then look at this. Could this list take 12+ chimera? Could this list take FNP BA? Could this list stand to take a round of shooting from of 15x Longfangs? Would you be able to win objective games? Hell, can you kill enough opposing troops to make it into endgame?

Essentially this list looks like a 1500-1750 point list. Not 2000.

Tun_Tau wrote:Shas'el plasma rifle, twin linked flamer, bonding knife, hard wired drone controler, hard wired multi-tracker,iridium armor, stimulant Injector

Tun_Tau wrote:1. Rational:
A. It is more likely to be targeted if it has the greater threat range of missle pods.
B. I use the HQ as a backfield defense against deepstrikes.

"More likely to be targeted"? Mmm, yeah, I suppose so, but as your enemy I'd also laugh that it is a non-threat I can save for dessert. And why spend so much on it if you think it won't get prioritized by the enemy?

Otherwise, it has too many toys as Sekminara stated, and bad weps at that, meaning the flamers (yes, I get the idea of countering DeepStrikers, but he's awfully expensive for Ninja Tau). A FireKnife or Deathrain, perhaps for more dakka?

Tun_Tau wrote:Crisis Battlesuit
team leader, twin linked missile pod, fusion blaster, bonding knife, hard wired multi-tracker, hard wired blacksun filter
Crisis Battlesuit
twin linked missile pods, blacksun filter

The Team Leader doesn't need a BK if his buddy dies, as he's still 50% of Original Unit Strength and can rally, without the BK. Unless you're attaching the HQ to them? Which would be bad as he'd slow them down with Irid Armor.

Tun_Tau wrote:x2 - Stealthsuit drone controller, x2 gun drones
Team leader - Fusion blaster, bonding knife, multi-tracker, markerlight, hard-wired blacksun filter

I think FBs on Stealths are royally inefficient. I think they function best as dedicated anti-I. Otherwise you have the 2 suits and 2 GDs struggling to get a glance on rhino side armor, or at best a Pen on its rear.

Also, why a BSF on a 12" ranged gun, even with Solar Pulsing Shenanigans?

Tun_Tau wrote:x7 Fire Warrior

The extra dude is mathematically unnecessary. His points might be better spent elsewhere.

Tun_Tau wrote:Shas'ui - pulse rifle, bonding knife, markerlight ...
B. I find an extra markerlight more useful than an extra pair of boots .

The MarkerLight isn't enough to do much good, particularly if your FWs are D'fish hopping. The ML being a Heavy and all.

I pretty much agree with all of Sekminara's points and Milisim has a few good points, too.

Thank you all for your feedback!
I feel a bit beat up lol.
I'm experimenting a lot since the game is still new to me and some theories I have need time to develop.

More likely to be targeted"? Mmm, yeah, I suppose so, but as your enemy I'd also laugh that it is a non-threat I can save for dessert. And why spend so much on it if you think it won't get prioritized by the enemy?

Otherwise, it has too many toys as Sekminara stated, and bad weps at that, meaning the flamers (yes, I get the idea of countering DeepStrikers, but he's awfully expensive for Ninja Tau). A FireKnife or Deathrain, perhaps for more dakka?

late game tar pit and the flamers work really really well(ever tried them?)

The Team Leader doesn't need a BK if his buddy dies, as he's still 50% of Original Unit Strength and can rally, without the BK. Unless you're attaching the HQ to them? Which would be bad as he'd slow them down with Irid Armor.

Typo

I think FBs on Stealths are royally inefficient. I think they function best as dedicated anti-I. Otherwise you have the 2 suits and 2 GDs struggling to get a glance on rhino side armor, or at best a Pen on its rear.

Also, why a BSF on a 12" ranged gun, even with Solar Pulsing Shenanigans?

2 pts for FB is a cheap FB, as you said useful for MEQ.
The BSF is for the markerlight.

As it stands now, the unit is incredibly expensive and it does not need to be.

11.3% of the list and usefull in some way through out the game.

Hell, can you kill enough opposing troops to make it into endgame?

So far yes. As I said I'm new so not a lot of games under my belt but I'm 4 wins, 5 ties, 3 losses(my first 2 games and one to a awesome necron list recently)

Tun_Tau wrote:Thank you all for your feedback!
I feel a bit beat up lol.
I'm experimenting a lot since the game is still new to me and some theories I have need time to develop.

Sorry for that 'beat up feeling', it isn't meant to be personal.

Tun_Tau wrote:late game tar pit and the flamers work really really well(ever tried them?)

Min sized kroot are cheaper and have a better chance of winning a h2h. I use wyches or a Chaos Dread for tarpitting. The girls will win and the dread's one MM gun isn't missed. If your Shas'el were normally kitted out, his guns would be significant.

I think FBs on Stealths are royally inefficient. I think they function best as dedicated anti-I. Otherwise you have the 2 suits and 2 GDs struggling to get a glance on rhino side armor, or at best a Pen on its rear.

Also, why a BSF on a 12" ranged gun, even with Solar Pulsing Shenanigans?

2 pts for FB is a cheap FB, as you said useful for MEQ.
The BSF is for the markerlight.

It's not the 2 points that I'm saying is inefficient; it is being attached to 90+ worth of BCs and drones that don't contribute to the same job. I suppose you could add a hwTarget Lock to allow the other to hit troops while he bangs a tank.

As it stands now, the unit is incredibly expensive and it does not need to be.

11.3% of the list and usefull in some way through out the game.

It really should be 100% useful *all* the time.

When I started, long ago, I used to have Crisis Suits kitted differently with hwTarget Locks on the Team Leader. FBs on my Stealths. XV8s with MPs and flamers. NooB stuff.
Once I started focusing my units on either anti-I or anti-T, my army got a whole lot better and I finished 4e with a 70% Win-Loss record. Eldar works that way, too. A unit has one focused job and does that job really well.

So far yes. As I said I'm new so not a lot of games under my belt but I'm 4 wins, 5 ties, 3 losses(my first 2 games and one to a awesome necron list recently)

Read Advancedtautactica.com. Loads of good tau stuff there.

And don't be discouraged to post here and catch some heat. It's meant to help your game get better.

See the thing is that Tau have been around for 10 years now and every conceivable loadout and tactic has been tried..

Since we dont ever get new codexes nothing needs a rethink a different way of doing things like everybody else...

Our Army lists are based on maximizing every last point since we overpay for everything in our dex and nothing in our Dex can have multiple purposes. We cant load up with anti inf or anti tank with our FW's etc... Everything is always the same.

Basically if your not taking suits and broadsides you are handicapping yourself as a Tau player.

Milisim wrote:See the thing is that Tau have been around for 10 years now and every conceivable loadout and tactic has been tried..

Since we dont ever get new codexes nothing needs a rethink a different way of doing things like everybody else...

Oh, c'mon (sarcasm) our book isn't even the oldest. It was new as of ... 2004. See? Sisters are older ... oh, wait, they got a White Dwarf revamp. (end sarcasm)

Milisim wrote:... nothing in our Dex can have multiple purposes. We cant load up with anti inf or anti tank with our FW's etc...

Actually, Milisim, a BC railhead with Target Lock is going to put 6 shots on troops and the RG on a tank. Resorting to the Submunition round when all enemy tanks are gone.

And FireKnives, by definition, are anti-light transport, anti-Meq. A mixed purpose, or should we say, an "all around" purpose?

Deathrains. TL-MP/flamer ? Not my favorite load-out, but a popular one, yes, with the flamer. I'd prefer my Deathrains as TL-MP with Target Array.

I thought I'd point these couple of nitpicks out, not to be argumentative, but to not give Tun_Tau a blanket assumption.

Suits are about the only thing in the Dex that people argue over anways... since its the only thing we can really play with..

Firewarriors, Kroot, Sniper Drones, Vespids etc... all have a single purpose....

A SM squad can split into 2 with one side getting the A weapons and the other half getting the H weapons.. It makes there troops more versatile....

Tau have a boat load of potential to be like SM we just need our new dex...

FW who can take RR Drones or BC Drones etc... Vespids with an armour save and longer range gun etc.... Make them more all rounder and useful....

How about a Prianha with triple TL BC's! Yeah Ill take them!

The outlook for Tau is great.... we just need it to be now and not on the back burner waiting for more SM dexes and other OP IoM crap to come out first!

Tau sales are down and GK sales are through the roof!

Why? It's obvious.....

Sorry to hijack this post but could someone please give me a breakdown of all the Crisis Suit nicknames? Don't really know what you guys mean when I read Fireknife and all that jazz.
Have a much neglected Tau army and would help if I know what you guys are on about when reading posts on tactics and stuff

Ta

Boar

wildboar wrote:Sorry to hijack this post but could someone please give me a breakdown of all the Crisis Suit nicknames? Don't really know what you guys mean when I read Fireknife and all that jazz.
Boar

Google is your friend. Try "Crisis Suits names." It's too many to type out (and remember) here, otherwise I'd just rattle 'em off.

Actually there is a article on dakkadakka about the names of suits.....

Most used are:

Fireknife: Plasma Rifle and Missle Pod
FireStorm: Burst Cannon and Missle Pod
DeathRain: Twin Linked Missle Pod
Helios: Fusion Blaster and Plasma Rifle
Sunforge: Twin Linked fusion blasters

There are tons more to use with things like AFB and CIB etc... Those are the "Normal" Loadouts...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Tau_Crisis_Suit_Loadouts

Cracking fellas thanks

Ok, we have the" YOUR DOING IT WRONG" talk out of the way. How can we stream line my list and focus it?
I have the pieces I have, buying more is not an option for me in the imediate future. I have 4 crisis suits, 6 stealth, 6 piranha, 24 FW(6 are ad-hock pathfinders), 2 DF, 3 HH , 12 kroot , and mixed assortment of drones

I went with the piranha over broadsides.
My rational was broadsides would get rushed, are expensive for a unit that doesnt move and in most lists I've seen require a bubble wrap of kroot pushing the cost up even further to surive more than 2 or 3 rounds.
A piranha squadron runs about the same, while not on the board effect how the opponant deploys and moves his units (a nice 2x2 box in the middle of their side that they hesitate to move out of ) and come with a gun drone squad to use as light infantry/harassers/mobile bubble wrap. I mixed weapon systems to up the volume of fire vs. infantry while still retaining a decent chance of of destroying vehicles looking for a happy medium. You've made good arguments in favor of all FB.

The stealthsuits have been a learning experiance and through a lot early games the first unit I would lose. I will rotate them out once I aquire enough crisis. But the lastest way I've been using them has been wolfpack tactics with the drones from vehicles, pathfinders, crisis suits and HQ creating a swamp for infantry. The fusion blasters have giving the whole tactic some HW vs. MEQ that i have in short supply in my list. spending 40 points on seekers(love them on piranha) I equiped the markerlight to give redundancy so I do not have to count on one PF squad to use them. Adding the BSF to the teamlead is the best place I've hit on to put them, they have to be used closer than most units so with their short range dont have a problem in nightfights by themselves, but the BSF+Markerlight gives me a cheap way to fire any unit effectivly in the dark.

HQ
My beloved twin-linked flamers lol
It breaks Deepstriked or pinned units, clears objectives and gives me lots of joy (i'm keeping it!) the question is do I keep the bodyguard twin-linked plasma(low ap comes in handy where the flamer is weak) or switch out one for a second flammer I'm commited to or make it a deathrain and add it to the elite slot? or make the flammer the bodyguard and it the shas'el so I dont waste the BS? The stim inj/iridium armor vs units damaged by the flammer thing has made it suriviable in CC but stuck and I am pondering wether to try out keeping a unit close by to assist it in CC by hopefully breaking the stalemate. I looked in to the vectored thrusters but if I'm reading it right I would not be able to take drones with it or bodyguards.

The FB on the the deathrain.
high Str/ low AP back-up weapon, cheaper than plasma and has been used in the majority of the games i've played to effect. Its not me running up with it. That just makes it dead. Its that they tend to rush into 6-12 inches at some point.

Troop choices
my tactic has been 2 reserved DF with 6FW. Using the suggestion of pathfinders has modified it. So what I gathered was drop the markerlight bring it up to 9 total with the shas'ui or leave it at base 6.
Again it was me trying for redundancy having the markerlight. It concevable that It would have to be used at some point.

My over all experiance has been enjoyable playing so far. When I decided(or was talked into) getting into 40k I went with the Tau because "Wow they serve the greater good? Thats my motto!" (I'm a nurse) I don't mind contructive criticism on the boards just keep from trolling me. I think you have effective army with your crisis and broadsides. I want to try out something different thats all.

The Tau are in need of a new codex for sure. Everything needs to be a bit cheaper to be comparable to other armies.
FB should be 24" or at least 18" inches. We can at most have 9 railguns and its the only alternative for AT. In a 2000pt list it means at the very least two to one odds in the heavy weapon department.
Pathfinders should be troops and FW need a way of being usefull outside a transport
the other xenos in the alliance need some help.

Tun_Tau,
If I had to make an army with your models I'd go with this:

HQ
Shas'el - Target Array, 2 guns (your choice), hwMT

Elite
1. Pair of ... FireStorms or FKs, one a Team Leader, Target Array, hwMT
2. Single ... FS, FK or Deathrain, Team Leader, Target Array, hwMT
3. Stealth Crew - All BCs, all Target Arrays (Team Leader & BK, maybe)

Troops
3 crews of 6 FWs, one of which has a D'fish or Warfish, depending on points available as you head to 1k. Two would be in Reserve.
10 or 12 kroot

Fast Attack
Another D'fish or Warfish for your 6 PFs
Two squadrons of piranha FBs & such

x2 Railhead - MT, Dispod, BCs, Target Lock

I didn't figure the points at all. I'd start with all the suits, stealths too, and railheads.

I don't think it adds up to 2k. Adding drones only would make the list 'fat', so where ever thes models lead to in points, stop there. *eyes it* Maybe 1750?

I would either push to 1750 or 1850 by upgrading the D'fish to Warfish, or *down* to 1750 or 1850 by just running Dumbfish.

I only use drones for broadsides, thus you see none in my recommendation.

2000 pt Tau
HQ:146(3)
Shas'el >twin linked flamer, plasma rifle, bonding knife, hard-wired drone controller, hard wired multi-tracker, stimulant injector, Iridium armor, x2 shield drones

HQ: 115(2)
Shas'el >twin linked plasma rifle, bonding knife, hard wired drone controller, positional relay, x1 shield drone

Elite: 114(2)
Crisis Battlesuit >twin linked missile pods, fussion blaster, hard-wired multi-tracker, hard-wired blacksun filter, team leader
Crisis Battlesuit >twin linked missle pods, blacksun filter

Elite: 175(5)
Stealthsuit x2
Teamleader >bonding knife, fusion blaster, markerlight, hard-wired drone controller, x2 markerlight drones, hard-wired blacksun filter

Elite: 175(9)
Stealthsuit x2 > drone controller , x4 gun drones
Teamleader > drone controller, x2 gun drones,fusion blaster, bonding knife,hard-wired blacksun filter, markerlight

Troop: 145(9)
Fire Warriors x6
Devilfish > disruption pod

Troop: 145(9)
Fire Warriors x6
Devilfish > disruption pod

Fast: 150(6)
Piranha x2> x2 fusion blaster, x2 disruption pods, x2 targeting array

Fast: 150(6)
Piranha x2> x2 fusion blaster, x2 disruption pods, x2 targeting array

Fast: 180(6)
Piranha x2>x2 disruption pods, x2 targeting array, x4 seeker missile,x2 burst cannon

Heavy:175(1)
Hammerhead>disruption pod, multi-tracker, rail gun, smart missile system

Heavy:165(1)
Hammerhead>disruption pod, multi-tracker, rail gun, x2 burst cannon

Heavy:165(1)
Hammerhead>disruption pod, multi-tracker, rail gun, x2 burst cannon