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Posting yet another list, because I'm excited for feedback! Gotta admit, I need a bit of help with this army. This is my favorite army, the Black Templars. I LOVE them. They're my current army, and yet I feel like something's missing. I already have a 1500pt list, but I'm not so sure it's solid. I have a majority of the army (I only need my vindicator), but I feel like I may have goofed, and my army may be ruined/not point effective enough. SO! Dakkaites! I beg of thee for thine assistance! Please note however, I LOVE Terminators and Dreadnoughts. I'd rather not get rid of them. Please keep that in mind. I also have a Land Raider Crusader, which seems like a must for this army, so I'd prefer not to scrap it, but if you feel like it's a must, voice your opinion! The extra 500pts to boost this army to 2000 will be listed in italics, and can be scraped!

HQ:

Emperor's Champion .... 140
Accept any challenge, no matter the odds.

Callestan ... 66pts
Bolt Pistol

ELITES:

Terminator Squad .... 270
Chainfists x2
Assault Cannon
Cyclone Missile Launcher
Tank Hunter Special Rule

Dreadnought 1 .... 150
Venerable Upgrade
Heavy Flamer
Tank Hunter Rule
Extra Armor

Dreadnought 2 ... 130
Missile Launcher
Twin Linked Lascannon

TROOPS:

Crusader Squad 1 ... 292
10 Initiates and 10 Neophytes
Power Weapon
Crusader Seal

Crusader Squad 2 .... 156
5 Strong
Plasma Gun
Lascannon
Rhino with Extra Armor

FAST ATTACK:

Land Speeder Typhoon ... 210
3 Strong (not all in same squad)
Typhoon Missile Launcher x3

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Land Raider Crusader ... 266
Searchlight

Vindicator ... 125
Power of the Machine Spirit
Dozer Blade

Vindicator .... 125
Power of the Machine Spirit

ALSO, JUST SO EVERYONE KNOWS:

Emperor's Champion goes with Crusader Squad 1, and the Callestan rides around with Crusader Squad 2 in their Rhino.

Here's a new, revamped list! ALSO, THEY HAVE BEEN BOOSTED TO 2000pts!
Marshal is with CC termies in a LRC, and Emperor's Champ is with Crusader squad 2 in a LRC

HQ:

Marshal ... 217
Terminator Armor
Adamantite Mantle
Chain Fist
Storm Shield
Bionics
Krak Grenades
Holy Orb of Antioch

Emperor's Champion .... 140
Accept any challenge, no matter the odds.

ELITES:

Terminator Squad .... 270
Chainfists x2
Assault Cannon
Cyclone Missile Launcher
Tank Hunter Special Rule

Dreadnought .... 165
Venerable Upgrade
Heavy Flamer
Tank Hunter Rule
Twin Linked Lascannon

Terminator Squad ... 215
Furious Charge Special Rule
x3 Lighting Claws
x2 Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields

TROOPS:

Crusader Squad 1 .... 229
10 strong - 7 Initiates and 3 Neophytes
Meltagun
Power Fist
Krak Grenades
Rhino and a Storm Bolter

Crusader Squad 2 ....224
15 strong - 10 Initiates and 5 Neophytes
Power Weapon
Crusade Seal
Krak Grenades

HEAVY SUPPORT:

2x Land Raider Crusaders with Storm Bolters .... 550

whats the point of the second HQ if hes just got the bolt pistol
a good idea would be to remove a few of the land speeders or a vindicator and fix up a proper Castellan and run him in the land raider crusader with the terminators

@Killstar71

Well, Emperor's Champ doesn't apparently count as an HQ, plus I had too many other things that I could sink points into. I didn't originally wanna sink too many points in other things. I'm thinking of actually removing the extra armor on the Rhino for him.
What do you suggest to run on the Callestan? He'll be a little expensive piece depending on what I throw on em, and I think I could only spare about 30ish points more for him in my 1500pts. 2000pts isn't absolutely confirmed for this army, but eh, it may happen.

EDIT: Actually, taking the points from the callestan, and a few other unnecessary things such as some extra armor here and there may make enough points for a Chaplain to accompany the Terminators. That may work too if I get caught up in CC

You only need the champion as HQ according to their FAQ. Actually without the FAQ their codex does not make any sense.

Tankhunter dread could do with ML and las, a single assault cannon seems a waste for the power.
I would double CML so the ranges of firepower match on your termy squad.
I would prefer finding points to get more termies rather than a second dread, if you like termies especially.

The crusaders probably want a fist in case they get charged down by a dread.

Not sure the extra armour on the rhino is of any use as moving is not crucial. It is worth thing about upgrading to a lasback.

I would want more typhoons.

In general I have no idea how the balance of shooty and cc is going to be fruitful. Overall the lists seems all right.

Few things...

EC can be an HQ you just need to select it in Army Builder.

Callestan is not really needed if you arent going to upgrade him or make upgrade him. A better option would be to upgrade to a Marshall and stick him in with your terminators. Personally I like using a Marshal because at 185 points the man is a BEAST. Example of a list, similar to yours but I think a bit more affective.

Some of this is copied from your list you created, I think your points are off on the Vindicators.

But you put the EC in one of the Rhino groups to give them an Initiave 5 Power weapon to thin the ranks of whatever they are assaulting. Both units have a melta gun for anti-tank close up and also a Power Fist so you can at least try to handle a vehicle or walker.

The Marshall goes with the CC terminators. You will have 3 +3 invulunerable saves in the unit to keep them alive and with the 3 LC's with Furious Charge, you have 12 re-roll to hit and re-roll to wound attacks at initative 5 and str 5. Most everything dies to that, but what doesn't has 2 TH hammers and a Chain fist to deal with afterwards. These guys ALL go in the LRC.

Then you have a TL Lascannon dread, 3 speeders and your vindicators that are all pretty good ranged damage. The only other thing would be to maybe change the Vindicators to Predators to have more 48'' range guns.

Emperor's Champion .... 140
Accept any challenge, no matter the odds.

Marshall .... 185
Terminator Armor, Adamantite Mantle, Chain Fist, Storm Shield

ELITES:

Terminator Assault Squad ... 215
2 Lightning Claws
3 Storm Shields/Thunder Hammers
Furious Charge

Dreadnought 170
Venerable
Heavy Flamer
TL Lascannon
Tank Hunter
Extra Armor

TROOPS:

Crusader Squad 1 ... 232
8 Initiates
Melta Gun
Power Fist
Frag Grenades
Rhino (Extra Armor)

Crusader Squad 2 ... 232
8 Initiates
Melta Gun
Power Fist
Frag Grenades
Rhino (Extra Armor)

Crusader Squad 3 ... 95
5 Initiates
Lascannon
FAST ATTACK:

Land Speeder Typhoon ... 85
Typhoon Missiles
Multi-Melta

Land Speeder Typhoon ... 85
Typhoon Missiles
Multi-Melta

Land Speeder Typhoon ... 85
Typhoon Missiles
Multi-Melta

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Land Raider Crusader ... 298
Blessed Hull

Vindicator ... 125
Power of the Machine Spirit

Vindicator .... 125
Power of the Machine Spirit

@ Roguejm11 - Huh. Must've read that wrong then. Some of the wording in the codex is funky anyway.
That Marshal sounds amazing, but I'm still curious about it cause I've never considered a chainfist AND a storm shield!
I'm a bit cautious about running two of those melta squads, but I still really do love the setup on them!
And, I'm a bit worried about dropping my shooty terminators, due to the fact I accidentally already built them. Maybe I could find a way to work with the Shooty Terminators, like replacing one of the Melta squads with them?
I could change one vindicator to a predator, but since I play orks a lot (as I usually play with one friend who runs orks and soon space wolves), I really want one large blast template to clear them out.

Other than this, I really love the feedback you gave me! Lots and lots of help!

Demdiddydizzy wrote:@ Roguejm11 - Huh. Must've read that wrong then. Some of the wording in the codex is funky anyway.
That Marshal sounds amazing, but I'm still curious about it cause I've never considered a chainfist AND a storm shield!
I'm a bit cautious about running two of those melta squads, but I still really do love the setup on them!
And, I'm a bit worried about dropping my shooty terminators, due to the fact I accidentally already built them. Maybe I could find a way to work with the Shooty Terminators, like replacing one of the Melta squads with them?
I could change one vindicator to a predator, but since I play orks a lot (as I usually play with one friend who runs orks and soon space wolves), I really want one large blast template to clear them out.

Other than this, I really love the feedback you gave me! Lots and lots of help!

The Marshall like that is a beast, 2+ or 3++ save, 3 wounds and you can't insta kill him with high str weapons. Although he can be removed from play by force weapons. But the Chain fist, yes it's imitative 1 but he gets I think 5 swings on the charge, it's str 8 with 2d 6 armor penetration he will wreck the heaviest of tanks without a problem.

If you already have the snooty terminators then I would look at the ideas of making them a command squad with the Marshall, dropping the LRC completely and adding a 2nd group of shoots terminators for the points.

The rhino initiates of 8 with a melta gun and power fist and kraks have worked wel for me, medium size group very capable of taki g and holding objectives.

Don't get me wrong, you have a TL tank hunter lascannon, and 6 missile shots at 48", the vindicators are a great 36" range threat. Keep them if you like them. You also need to go to games workshops website, there is an FAQ about BT has information not in your book.

@Rougejm11

That Marshal is so cool! I'm not worried about the initiative 1, I just think it's a weird concept, a storm shield and a chainfist Don't get me wrong, I love him, he's definitely taken into consideration.

The Land Raider Crusader I think I could still keep, if I took points from a few areas, possibly dropping maybe a rhino squad, then using those points to make a CC Terminator squad with my Marshal.

I think I should definitely find it again. I had the link once, but then I forgot about it/ got to working on a few other armies to forget about the FAQ.

I run my marshal with artificer armour, pair LC, Iron halo, adamantine mantle, holy orb of antioch, bionics and melta bombs, its a total of 210 for him but he's immune to instant death as well as having re-rolls for hit and wound. and the bionics just to keep him from falling down so fast.

Ive got him with a command squad but in a 1500 point im running him in the crusader with 5 assault terminators in a land raider crusader with extra armour and blessed hull, as well as the emperor's champion with uphold the honour of the emperor(just my preferred vow)

Ive also got 2 10 man Crusader Squad's one with a heavy bolter and the other with a Power Fist an Melta Gun(I either drop in drop pod or leave them up back with the other squad just for protection)

then ive got 2 land speeders, both typhoon missile setup and a predator with all lascannons extra armour and power of the machine spirit

@Killstar71 - Dang, that's a lot of points to spend on a guy (I cringe when I hit around that many points for a guy), but he seems to be a great choice. I'm always worried about not having enough bullets. I love having tons of guns, due to me usually playing my friend's Orks. I try and avoid close combat with his "train" as he calls it, which is some beefed up Nobz with powerklaws and Gahzgull Thrakka (spelling?). I feel the need to possibly throw in some CC Terminators. So, I may drop the second dread, the callestan, and afford myself some extra points for the CC Terminators to go into the Crusader to kill many many things. And maybe a chaplain. That'd be awesome, cause I've seen how well Black Templar CC Terminators with a Chaplain can mop up enemies. (took out around 45 Orks once in a game I saw, scared the heck outta me!)

Personally I would keep the dreadnought's and take out the vindicators, drop the dread's in via drop pods and have them break up the enemy units and swap your terminators for CC terminators then if you want to take the chaplain take out 1 or 2 of the land speeders since you will already have heaps of anti-vehicle options

@Killstar71 - I've... Already bought the shoot terminators sadly. That was something I regret. That's why I have the Vindicators. I have tons and tons of anti-tank, and I need a tank that can instant gib many things, from blob armies to high armor value units.

Well either terminators will work well, i would still run them in the land raider, just drop them out every so often to shoot and then get back in. In any case, i would remove at least 1 or 2 of the land speeders and fix up a proper HQ because your callestan at the moment is basically a tactical marine with a few extra wounds

@- Killstar71 - I got an idea then. Remove one or Land Speeders for points for my Callestan (maybe upgrade him to a Marshal, and run him like Roguejm11 does with Terminator Armor, Adamantite Mantle, Chain Fist, and a Storm Shield), take some points here and there, plus the rest from the Land Speeders to help split my Crusader squad #1 into a two squads, one with CC capability and one melta/powerfist squad in a rhino.

Doing that you really only save 30 points to get a marshal with no rerolls or no grenades, if you want to remove anything id take out the neophytes and then just take that squad you have in a rhino since you already got it with a power weapon, just throw a flamer thrower on it for some extra damage before you charge

@ - Killstar71 Well, I definitely will take this all into mind. I may have a different list written up tomorrow, taking all of this into consideration.

Alright, well ill check it tomorrow and ill let you know what i think, you seem to have a good list at the moment but those few tweaks will refine it

Thanks for the support! I need these tweaks, considering what happened to me when I first played them (discluding my accidental bad deployment due to terrain)

You may also want to consider taking a heavy flamer on your speeders because that insta kills most orks, so you can lose the vindicators and still have template damage.

Demdiddydizzy wrote:
HQ:

Emperor's Champion .... 140
Accept any challenge, no matter the odds.

Ok this is always good.

Demdiddydizzy wrote:
Callestan ... 66pts
Bolt Pistol

At 1500 I would never run a commnader. At 2K I would run a marshal with adamantine mantle, artificer armor (or termi armor), termi honors and holy orb (if no termi armor), Storm Shield and a single LC. That gives you a 2+/3++ guy with an extra attack with reroll to hit (EC) and reroll to wound (LC) all while ignoring ID from S8+ weapons and a nasty surprise for a squad in blast form.

Demdiddydizzy wrote:
ELITES:

Terminator Squad .... 270
Chainfists x2
Assault Cannon
Cyclone Missile Launcher
Tank Hunter Special Rule

I'd get a second CML over the assault cannon. Chain fists may be overkill with the tank hunters.

Demdiddydizzy wrote:
Dreadnought 1 .... 150
Venerable Upgrade
Heavy Flamer
Tank Hunter Rule
Extra Armor

Dreadnought 2 ... 130
Missile Launcher
Twin Linked Lascannon

Give the weapons on the second dread to the first dread. Then drop the other dread for some assault termis...about 7 with 5LC/2TH SS and add in the marshal. Give them a dedicated LRC instead of the HS.

Demdiddydizzy wrote:
TROOPS:
Crusader Squad 1 ... 292
10 Initiates and 10 Neophytes
Power Weapon
Crusader Seal

Drop the neophtyes and the initiates to 7 or so and swap the PW for a PF to protect against dreads. The crusader seals aren't as necessary as frags will be. Then get them a rhino.

Demdiddydizzy wrote:
Crusader Squad 2 .... 156
5 Strong
Plasma Gun
Lascannon
Rhino with Extra Armor

The EA is kinda pointless. I might give it to the other rhino I suggested in troops but I'm not 100% on that.

Demdiddydizzy wrote:
FAST ATTACK:

Land Speeder Typhoon ... 210
3 Strong (not all in same squad)
Typhoon Missile Launcher x3

Normally I would like to have more but this is bad.

Demdiddydizzy wrote:
HEAVY SUPPORT:

Land Raider Crusader ... 266
Searchlight

Like I said move this to the assault termis as a dedicated and drop the searchlight.

Demdiddydizzy wrote:
Vindicator ... 125
Power of the Machine Spirit
Dozer Blade

Vindicator .... 125
Power of the Machine Spirit

Ok so keeping these two the same is fine. I'd drop the dozer blade on the first and add EA on to both of them.

Here's a new, revamped list! ALSO, THEY HAVE BEEN BOOSTED TO 2000pts!

HQ:

Marshal ... 217
Terminator Armor
Adamantite Mantle
Chain Fist
Storm Shield
Bionics
Krak Grenades
Holy Orb of Antioch

Emperor's Champion .... 140
Accept any challenge, no matter the odds.

ELITES:

Terminator Squad .... 270
Chainfists x2
Assault Cannon
Cyclone Missile Launcher
Tank Hunter Special Rule

Dreadnought .... 165
Venerable Upgrade
Heavy Flamer
Tank Hunter Rule
Twin Linked Lascannon

Terminator Squad ... 215
Furious Charge Special Rule
x3 Lighting Claws
x2 Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields

TROOPS:

Crusader Squad 1 .... 229
10 strong - 7 Initiates and 3 Neophytes
Meltagun
Power Fist
Krak Grenades
Rhino and a Storm Bolter

Crusader Squad 2 ....224
15 strong - 10 Initiates and 5 Neophytes
Power Weapon
Crusade Seal
Krak Grenades

HEAVY SUPPORT:

2x Land Raider Crusaders with Storm Bolters .... 550

Demdiddydizzy wrote:
Marshal ... 217
Terminator Armor
Adamantite Mantle
Chain Fist
Storm Shield
Bionics
Krak Grenades
Holy Orb of Antioch

Hey, this doesn't quite work for you-terminator armor can't combine with a couple of things on here-look at your wargear section in the book-if a T isn't next to the name, terminator armor models can't take it. Also, it took me a little bit to pick this up, but from your list it looks like you already know it-terminator armor has terminator honors, meaning an additional attack, built right in. I'd use that to advantage for high volume of attacks on your Marshals with twin LCs (6 attacks on charge, re-rolls on everything with correct vow, potential increased I and S from special skills if he gets access to it).

@timetowaste85 - Uh oh Didn't see that. I can't believe I forgot about that. (face palm) I guess Lighting claws would be good, considering the amount people are telling me to take them, plus with the stats people are showing me. And yes, my vow does allow re-rolls on everything in close combat. So, I should change out the chain fist and storm shield out for Lighting Claws, and use said other points for terminator honors and an adamantite mantle?

Demdiddydizzy wrote:
HQ:

Marshal ... 217
Terminator Armor
Adamantite Mantle
Chain Fist
Storm Shield
Bionics
Krak Grenades
Holy Orb of Antioch

As has already been said the orb or the Termi armor has to go. Personally I would rather drop the armor and get artificer with termi honors. Then swap the Chain Fist for a LC. Yes you loose the ability to cut through armor but gain reroll to wound. Krak Grenades also probably aren't neccessary but frags might be.

Demdiddydizzy wrote:
Emperor's Champion .... 140
Accept any challenge, no matter the odds.

And still good.

Demdiddydizzy wrote:
ELITES:

Terminator Squad .... 270
Chainfists x2
Assault Cannon
Cyclone Missile Launcher
Tank Hunter Special Rule

I would still strongly recomend a second CML over the assault cannon. If you don't have the CML bits then you can use things like a sentinels ML to make your own, or just make a decent one out of plasticard, but it will be much more useful to you than an assault cannon.

Demdiddydizzy wrote:
Dreadnought .... 165
Venerable Upgrade
Heavy Flamer
Tank Hunter Rule
Twin Linked Lascannon

I'd grab a ML over the Heavy Flamer to make full use of the Tank Hunters. Against vehicles you have a S9 and a TL S10. Then just sit back and fire.

Demdiddydizzy wrote:
Terminator Squad ... 215
Furious Charge Special Rule
x3 Lighting Claws
x2 Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields

Just fun.

Demdiddydizzy wrote:
TROOPS:

Crusader Squad 1 .... 229
10 strong - 7 Initiates and 3 Neophytes
Meltagun
Power Fist
Krak Grenades
Rhino and a Storm Bolter

Again I would take frags over Krak. Those offensive grenades for charging units can be lifesavers. I'm not sure I would add the extra Strom Bolter though. I see the value in the three neophytes, but 1 or 2 may just be enough. Dropping a couple and the storm bolter can help pay for some of the upgrades on the marshal and the Terminators.

Demdiddydizzy wrote:
Crusader Squad 2 ....224
15 strong - 10 Initiates and 5 Neophytes
Power Weapon
Crusade Seal
Krak Grenades

Woah. I'd drop to about 5 guys with a LC and a PG. Then make a second squad. That should give you more troops and more AT, and anti-TEQ shots. You won't need the seals or krak either.

Demdiddydizzy wrote:
HEAVY SUPPORT:

2x Land Raider Crusaders with Storm Bolters .... 550

I would drop one of the crusaders andt he strom bolter off of the other. Finish paying for the upgrades then look at something like vindicators with PotMS/EA or Preds with Autocannon and LC sponsons.

Looks alot better, I would be putting the dreadnought in a drop off thought and drop in first turn, that way he has to take it the dread before he can take out your land raiders, also if your going to take a pair of lightning claws if drop the terminator armor for artificer armor and a iron halo

So, if I upgrade like that, then it should look like this:

HQ:

Marshal .... 206
Storm Shield
Lighting Claw
Artificer armor
Bionics
Holy Orb
Frag grenades
Terminator honors
Adamantine armor

Add a missile launcher onto the Ven, which won't change the price. (I was worried about combat capability, but it's a hellfire. Not meant for CC)
Just remove the storm bolter and one neophyte from the first squad's rhino, and change out kraks for frags
Add 5 man squad with the las and plas combo (already have it, so yay) Should I give them a rhino?
1 Vindicator w/ Extra armor and power of the machine spirit

I have 248 pts. Now, I could buy another vindicator, but then should I buy a rhino/razorback for my shooty squad? Or something else? Or should I avoid the second vindicator altogether?

As i said before it would be a good idea to take the dreadnought in a drop pod, it can do massive damage to any army, plus it will keep them distracted while you move your land raider crusader into position

@killstar71 - A DP in the Black Templar's book costs 40 points (not so sure, too lazy to go get the codex at two in the morning). So what do I do with the other 208pts?

A variety of my 2000pt list for my Black Templars


HQ:

Marshal … 80
Storm Shield … 10
Single Lighting Claw …. 25
Adamantine Mantle …35
Artificer Armor …. 20
Frag Grenades …. 1
Terminator Honors … 15
TOTAL: 186

Emps Champ … 90
Accept any challenge … 50
TOTAL: 140

ELITES:
Termies …. 200
Assault can … 20
CML … 25
x2 Chainfists …10
Tank Hunters … 15
TOTAL: 270

CC termies …200
Furious Charge … 15
TOTAL: 215

Dreadnought … 105
TL Lascannon … 20
Missile launcher … 10
Ven …. 20
Tank hunter … 10
TOTAL: 165

TROOPS:

MELTA SQUAD …. 132 (7 Initiates + 2 Neophytes)
Melta gun …10pts
Powerfist …15pts
Rhino … 50
TOTAL: 207

Long range gunner squad … 80pts (5 initiates)
Plasma gun … 6
Lascannon … 15
TOTAL: 101

Plasma suicide squad … 80
Powerfist … 15
Plasmagun … 6
Rhino … 50
TOTAL: 151

OR INSTEAD OF PLASMA SUICIDE SQUAD AND LONG RANGE SQUAD

Chainsword squad … 144
power weapon … 10
Rhino … 50
Frag grenade … 1
TOTAL: 205

HEAVY SUPPORT:

LRC …. 265

x2 Vindicator's w/ Power of the Machine Spirit … 300