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Fully-Augmented Adam Jensen(with additional powers that I added) from Deus Ex: Human Revolution now travels to 40k to challenge Himself and here's it is:

Adam Jensen(Counts as Elite)

here's his Stats: WS 5, BS 5, S 5, T 5, W 5, I 7, A 5, Ld 10, Sv 3+

here's his Arsenals: Mechanical Augmentations from DX3(Counts as Power Armor), Combat Nanoceramic Blade(counts as Chainfist), Storm Bolter, Hotshot Lasgun, Plasma Cannon, Multi-Melta, Missile Launcher, Assault Cannon, Multilaser, PEPS, and Typhoon Explosive system

and here's his special rules:

C.A.S.I.E.: converts enemy infantry to the player's side

Cybernetic Leg: counts as Fleet USR

Cybernetic Arm: roll 2d6 penetration against vehicles

Hacking: takes over enemy vehicles in melee range for 1 turn where he uses Pask's Special rules when riding hijacked vehicles as well capturing several objectives at once

Weapon Customization: Adam Jensen's attacks are becomes Twin-linked

Typhoon Explosive system: when surrounded by enemy infantry, he can deals 2d6 damages at surrounding enemy infantry

Deploys Retractable Exoskeleton: Adam Jensen gets bonus 2+ Invulnerable Save and +3 Strength for 1 turn

PEPS: Stuns enemy infantry for 2 turns

and FNP of course as well he deploys like Marbo

what do you think?

No that isn't Adam Jensen thats your random super dude with ridiculous rules.

1. Jensen was made out of paper in DX3, he could regenerate health, NO 2++ save

2. Ridiculous amout of guns, he could not carry ridiculous amount of guns in the game

3. No 2d6 pen

4 I like to hacking idea but it is too op, maybe tone it down to on 4+ jensen can control "enemy mechanical stuff" as long as he is in base contact for a turn.

5 Jensen was not a leader, elite choise with unit size of 1 suit better.

6 5 WOUNDS!?!?!

7 What is CASIE?

8 Because jensen could become invisible I think he should deploy like marbo.

illuknisaa wrote:No that isn't Adam Jensen thats your random super dude with ridiculous rules.

1. Jensen was made out of paper in DX3, he could regenerate health, NO 2++ save

2. Ridiculous amout of guns, he could not carry ridiculous amount of guns in the game

3. No 2d6 pen

4 I like to hacking idea but it is too op, maybe tone it down to on 4+ jensen can control "enemy mechanical stuff" as long as he is in base contact for a turn.

5 Jensen was not a leader, elite choise with unit size of 1 suit better.

6 5 WOUNDS!?!?!

7 What is CASIE?

8 Because jensen could become invisible I think he should deploy like marbo.

1. have you ever heard Concepts of Power Creep Power Seep: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PowerCreepPowerSeep where characters in crossovers are stronger or weaker than their canon incarnations, often they have new weapons and powers that their canon selves lacks

2. see above

3. see above

4. I has nerfed his hacking Special Rule

5. I has change him into elite unit

6. probably to goes takes on whole 40k universe

7. http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Social_Enhancer

8. I has makes him can deploys like Marbo

1. Nope but more powerful doesn't neccessarly mean tougher or stronger. Ask yourself can Adan Jensen who dies to few 10mm bullets sustain ridiculous amout of damage from laser guns that rip of a normal mans arms off or from SMGs that shoot explosive ammunition?

4 "captures several objectives at once" His points should be like 1000-1500 because Jensen will have no trouble beating my 1000 point trukk spam list all by himself.

7 So you are going to make jensen convince an ork warboss (via talking) that he should shoot his orks instead jensen?

illuknisaa wrote:1. Nope but more powerful doesn't neccessarly mean tougher or stronger. Ask yourself can Adan Jensen who dies to few 10mm bullets sustain ridiculous amout of damage from laser guns that rip of a normal mans arms off or from SMGs that shoot explosive ammunition?

4 "captures several objectives at once" His points should be like 1000-1500 because Jensen will have no trouble beating my 1000 point trukk spam list all by himself.

7 So you are going to make jensen convince an ork warboss (via talking) that he should shoot his orks instead jensen?

1. he have Dermal Armor Augmentations which counts as Power Armor(if you still says Dermal Armor are no better than Guardsman's flak armor, Jensen can deploys Retractable Exosuit)

7. maybe

I personally feel he is totally overpowered.
However I acknowledge its an experimental ruleset and you've clarified you have added in rules yourself.

However I'll highlight my issues:
No points value listed.

WS and BS 5 make him as combat hardy and experienced as either a Marine Captain or an Eldar Exarch which I simply dont believe, either from a fluff perspective or a ruleset.
Jensen has been augmented, thats accepted but those augs are 21st century tech and whilst very good, dont compare to 40k stuff imho (yes I know there are ongoing debates that modern tech is as good as 40k but I dont believe that personally and its yet to be fully endorsed by either GW officially, hence its canon breaking).

T5 and W5 give him more wounds than a Hive Tyrant and nearly as tough as a Carnifex. There is virtually nothing within DX3 to support this. Ingame Jensen still dies to short ursts of machine gun fire, is suceptible without upgrades to fire and shock has no head armor and can be beaten in hand to hand combat (read the girl boss) who is not as well augmented.

I7 and A5 for me though are the breaker. Hes technically better in combat than the Swarmlord? Just no Im afraid.
He is human, an augmented human but human nevertheless. Currently only Eversors in terms of human ability have these stats and they are literally bred and trained for years and years to reach that level, in addition to being bred specially to be combat monsters.
Adam Jensen is not.

His special rules:
CASIE and hacking are just completely outside of the 40k ruleset, something which is always dangerous to do. There are few if any precedents for them and they fundamentally change the basic ruleset. They need to be amended heavily imho.

I dont believe his cyber arm should give him 2d6 pen. Ingame he can ounch through walls sure but not every wall (ie hardended, steel etc) and 2d6 puts him as effective as a melta bomb which is a small thermo nuclear charge. D6 maybe.

TES needs clarificartion, what str, ap etc?

DRE and PEPS are a bit jaw dropping tbh. They are just simply overpowered and dont really require an explanation as to why.

Fair play for writing the rules up but I'd suggest trying a few games out as they stand and seeing how powerful he is as a lone human.

I simply dont agree with them on any level Im afraid :(

Ratius wrote:I personally feel he is totally overpowered.
However I acknowledge its an experimental ruleset and you've clarified you have added in rules yourself.

However I'll highlight my issues:
No points value listed.

WS and BS 5 make him as combat hardy and experienced as either a Marine Captain or an Eldar Exarch which I simply dont believe, either from a fluff perspective or a ruleset.
Jensen has been augmented, thats accepted but those augs are 21st century tech and whilst very good, dont compare to 40k stuff imho (yes I know there are ongoing debates that modern tech is as good as 40k but I dont believe that personally and its yet to be fully endorsed by either GW officially, hence its canon breaking).

T5 and W5 give him more wounds than a Hive Tyrant and nearly as tough as a Carnifex. There is virtually nothing within DX3 to support this. Ingame Jensen still dies to short ursts of machine gun fire, is suceptible without upgrades to fire and shock has no head armor and can be beaten in hand to hand combat (read the girl boss) who is not as well augmented.

I7 and A5 for me though are the breaker. Hes technically better in combat than the Swarmlord? Just no Im afraid.
He is human, an augmented human but human nevertheless. Currently only Eversors in terms of human ability have these stats and they are literally bred and trained for years and years to reach that level, in addition to being bred specially to be combat monsters.
Adam Jensen is not.

His special rules:
CASIE and hacking are just completely outside of the 40k ruleset, something which is always dangerous to do. There are few if any precedents for them and they fundamentally change the basic ruleset. They need to be amended heavily imho.

I dont believe his cyber arm should give him 2d6 pen. Ingame he can ounch through walls sure but not every wall (ie hardended, steel etc) and 2d6 puts him as effective as a melta bomb which is a small thermo nuclear charge. D6 maybe.

TES needs clarificartion, what str, ap etc?

DRE and PEPS are a bit jaw dropping tbh. They are just simply overpowered and dont really require an explanation as to why.

Fair play for writing the rules up but I'd suggest trying a few games out as they stand and seeing how powerful he is as a lone human.

I simply dont agree with them on any level Im afraid :(

another weakness of 21st century bionic technology when compared to 41st millenium bionic technology: 21st century bionics requires people that uses it uses Neuropozyne or having unique Genetic Quirk which Adam Jensen is the only ones that have, while 41st Millenium bionics have it's users don't need Neuropozyne or unique genetic condition that only Adam Jensen have

Masonicon wrote:Fully-Augmented Adam Jensen(with additional powers that I added) from Deus Ex: Human Revolution now travels to 40k to challenge Himself and here's it is:

Adam Jensen(Counts as Elite)

here's his Stats: WS 5, BS 5, S 5, T 5, W 5, I 7, A 5, Ld 10, Sv 3+

here's his Arsenals: Mechanical Augmentations from DX3(Counts as Power Armor), Combat Nanoceramic Blade(counts as Chainfist), Storm Bolter, Hotshot Lasgun, Plasma Cannon, Multi-Melta, Missile Launcher, Assault Cannon, Multilaser, PEPS, and Typhoon Explosive system

and here's his special rules:

C.A.S.I.E.: converts enemy infantry to the player's side

Cybernetic Leg: counts as Fleet USR

Cybernetic Arm: roll 2d6 penetration against vehicles

Hacking: takes over enemy vehicles in melee range for 1 turn where he uses Pask's Special rules when riding hijacked vehicles as well capturing several objectives at once

Weapon Customization: Adam Jensen's attacks are becomes Twin-linked

Typhoon Explosive system: when surrounded by enemy infantry, he can deals 2d6 damages at surrounding enemy infantry

Deploys Retractable Exoskeleton: Adam Jensen gets bonus 2+ Invulnerable Save and +3 Strength for 1 turn

PEPS: Stuns enemy infantry for 2 turns

and FNP of course as well he deploys like Marbo

what do you think?

He is WAYYYYYYY to over the top. There is nothing supporting that Adam jensin is as powerful as you seems to think he is (reasons have been given and you seem to ignore/ argue against all of them),and as others have stated he could take on a swarmlord, carnifex and probably a great unclean one and come out on the upper hand. Being generous id say for a statline that what i got in red (to show my changes) sounds more appropriate

here's his Stats: WS 5, BS 5, S 5, T 5, W 5, I 7, A 5, Ld 10, Sv 3+
Ws4 Bs3 S4 T3 W2 I3 A3 Ld7 Sv 5+ with maybe a 5++ invulnerable save

Weapons: Mechanical Augmentations from DX3(Counts as Power Armor) No.... it should be at best a 5+/5++ save i can not see it being the equal of power armour let alone better then flak armour
Combat Nanoceramic Blade(counts as Chainfist) i would say a power weapon would work best
For a ranged weapon maybe a boltgun or Hot Shot Lasgun
PEPS already covered in the rules below
Typhoon Explosive system already covered in the rules below

C.A.S.I.E.: converts enemy infantry to the player's side

No

Cybernetic Leg: counts as Fleet USR

this one sounds good, or you could even make it so it gives him furious charge

Cybernetic Arm: roll 2d6 penetration against vehicles

just a single D6 will suffice

Hacking: takes over enemy vehicles in melee range for 1 turn where he uses Pask's Special rules when riding hijacked vehicles as well capturing several objectives at once

sounds cool, but should be on a 5+ he hacks them and maybe makes a single weapon twinlinked for the turn

Weapon Customization: Adam Jensen's attacks are becomes Twin-linked

No

Typhoon Explosive system: when surrounded by enemy infantry, he can deals 2d6 damages at surrounding enemy infantry

would be more interesting as a 3D3 (odd i know but makes it so he can either get a great ammount of hits, or he botched up somehow and only got a few guys) S4 AP6 hit

Deploys Retractable Exoskeleton: Adam Jensen gets bonus 2+ Invulnerable Save and +3 Strength for 1 turn

Hell. No

PEPS: Stuns enemy infantry for 2 turns

just make it so a single unit in say 12" has to take a pinning check.

and FNP of course as well he deploys like Marbo

deploys like Marbo sounds good, but make it a 6+ FNP (cant have him be too over the top eh)

Tazz Azrael wrote:

Masonicon wrote:Fully-Augmented Adam Jensen(with additional powers that I added) from Deus Ex: Human Revolution now travels to 40k to challenge Himself and here's it is:

Adam Jensen(Counts as Elite)

here's his Stats: WS 5, BS 5, S 5, T 5, W 5, I 7, A 5, Ld 10, Sv 3+

here's his Arsenals: Mechanical Augmentations from DX3(Counts as Power Armor), Combat Nanoceramic Blade(counts as Chainfist), Storm Bolter, Hotshot Lasgun, Plasma Cannon, Multi-Melta, Missile Launcher, Assault Cannon, Multilaser, PEPS, and Typhoon Explosive system

and here's his special rules:

C.A.S.I.E.: converts enemy infantry to the player's side

Cybernetic Leg: counts as Fleet USR

Cybernetic Arm: roll 2d6 penetration against vehicles

Hacking: takes over enemy vehicles in melee range for 1 turn where he uses Pask's Special rules when riding hijacked vehicles as well capturing several objectives at once

Weapon Customization: Adam Jensen's attacks are becomes Twin-linked

Typhoon Explosive system: when surrounded by enemy infantry, he can deals 2d6 damages at surrounding enemy infantry

Deploys Retractable Exoskeleton: Adam Jensen gets bonus 2+ Invulnerable Save and +3 Strength for 1 turn

PEPS: Stuns enemy infantry for 2 turns

and FNP of course as well he deploys like Marbo

what do you think?

He is WAYYYYYYY to over the top. There is nothing supporting that Adam jensin is as powerful as you seems to think he is (reasons have been given and you seem to ignore/ argue against all of them),and as others have stated he could take on a swarmlord, carnifex and probably a great unclean one and come out on the upper hand. Being generous id say for a statline that what i got in red (to show my changes) sounds more appropriate

here's his Stats: WS 5, BS 5, S 5, T 5, W 5, I 7, A 5, Ld 10, Sv 3+
Ws4 Bs3 S4 T3 W2 I3 A3 Ld7 Sv 5+ with maybe a 5++ invulnerable save

Weapons: Mechanical Augmentations from DX3(Counts as Power Armor) No.... it should be at best a 5+/5++ save i can not see it being the equal of power armour let alone better then flak armour
Combat Nanoceramic Blade(counts as Chainfist) i would say a power weapon would work best
For a ranged weapon maybe a boltgun or Hot Shot Lasgun
PEPS already covered in the rules below
Typhoon Explosive system already covered in the rules below

C.A.S.I.E.: converts enemy infantry to the player's side

No

Cybernetic Leg: counts as Fleet USR

this one sounds good, or you could even make it so it gives him furious charge

Cybernetic Arm: roll 2d6 penetration against vehicles

just a single D6 will suffice

Hacking: takes over enemy vehicles in melee range for 1 turn where he uses Pask's Special rules when riding hijacked vehicles as well capturing several objectives at once

sounds cool, but should be on a 5+ he hacks them and maybe makes a single weapon twinlinked for the turn

Weapon Customization: Adam Jensen's attacks are becomes Twin-linked

No

Typhoon Explosive system: when surrounded by enemy infantry, he can deals 2d6 damages at surrounding enemy infantry

would be more interesting as a 3D3 (odd i know but makes it so he can either get a great ammount of hits, or he botched up somehow and only got a few guys) S4 AP6 hit

Deploys Retractable Exoskeleton: Adam Jensen gets bonus 2+ Invulnerable Save and +3 Strength for 1 turn

Hell. No

PEPS: Stuns enemy infantry for 2 turns

just make it so a single unit in say 12" has to take a pinning check.

and FNP of course as well he deploys like Marbo

deploys like Marbo sounds good, but make it a 6+ FNP (cant have him be too over the top eh)

So basically the closest people that becomes 41st millennium counterpart of Adam Jensen is: Catachan Guardsman named Colonel "Iron Hand" Straken

Jensen is a human, arguably a veteran as he was in SWAT so

WS 3, BS 4, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 3, A 2, Ld 8, Sv 5+ (flak)

On being modded:

WS 4, BS 4, S 4, T 4, W 2, I 4, A 2, Ld 9, Sv 4+

Essentially like a marine, his strength, toughness, accuracy, and speed have been improved. He's basically 'slightly better' than a veteran. More in line to a space marine although he wouldn't have any of the special organs except perhaps the ability to breathe semi-toxic gases.

HERE is Adam Jensen in Warhammer World. I am a huge fan of the series and I will be more realistic.


WS: 4 - His training in S.W.A.T and as he is and was a Leader and just good at that kind of thing.
BS: 5 - Well above normal human level. Plus he has Targeting and Stabilizer Augs which increase his ability to fire and steady a gun better than most. This means that because he was a S.W.A.T leader his BS already had to be at 4 since it would be far above the "trained" level of a normal soldiers of whom would have a 3 BS. Augs increase it meaning his BS is that of a Vetrean Space Marine which is stupid enough for a normal human to have.
S: 4 - Arm augs Same strength as a space marine. You just need to know the scale of the stats is all. 3- Human 4- Space Marine strength lol.
T: 3 - He IS human and hurts like the rest of us. Augs only count towards Armor not how tough he is.
I: 4 - Leg Augs give him super human speed. I seen how fast Space Marines run and he goes as fast.
W: 2 - His health never increased with augs. Having 2 wounds IS a big deal for a human! He isn't a god afterall like Commisars are
A: 3 - He is fast and good at melee combat.
LD:10 - Cassie AUG
SV: 4 - His Fully made Nano Ceramic armor is really good armor. Its NOT FLAK ARMOR!

Filtration system - Adam Jensens body fan filter out poison and toxin gas. Therefor is Immune to Poison Weapons.

Stealth - Adam Jensen has the Stealth special Rule

Adam Jensen is not effected by those Tau Granades or ones like it that make him -a in CC because of his eyes able to ignore bright lights.

Adam is also immune to anything that has lightning in the name. So that lightning bolt thing from lets say the Rune Priest would be filtered out.

Not sure how to word that last one but it makes sense because of his armor. He could stand in continually super electrofied water and nothing happens.

The Stealth field for his cloaking and Filtration system for his lung augs. and FINALLY!

Once per turn on each turn. Adam may heal 1 wound at the beginning of the Assault phase before any rolls or other special rules apply.
This is his internal health system kicking in and the nano robots healing him.

Finally

Nanoceramic Blades count as power weapons for all intents and purposes.
They are Nano tech built blades. A Tech that 40k would be on par with. So I think that it should.

Thats not half bad Vasarto, good job.

Only thing I'd query though is his ability to block out flash and blind grenades, if Terminator armor or Tyranid membranes cant do it, its questionnable that his bio implants could either.

Also with the immune to Lightning rule, you have to be very careful of the wording. Immune to anything with lightning in the title could cause some really crappy nit picks or flaws.

Im not too sure of 3A either. Hes as good in combat as a Genestealer? I'd drop it to 2.

Maybe make him immune to poison weapons on a 4+, 40k toxins are some of the most exotic and lethal around, he'd be hard pushed to fight off their effects.

Whats the cassie aug again that makes him LD10, cant recall it.

What weapons would you give him? Sniper rifle, pistol and hth blade?

The Cassie Aug allows jensen to determin the personality type, Facial expressions, heart beat, attitude, personality, likes, dislikes and general feelings of the person he is talking it. Making it extreamely easy to know what to say to that person. Added with his charismatic nature and Leadership skills. There is no one he can talk down lol.


I like the additional ideas you had though. 2 attacks would be fine and the poison thing does make sense. I forgot about the +1 on charge so he would still have 1 attack on the charge making it 3 for one turn.

Vasarto wrote:Adam is also immune to anything that has lightning in the name. So that lightning bolt thing from lets say the Rune Priest would be filtered out.

How about "Adam takes no damage from attacks with the Shocking or Tesla special rules, and (Within reason) Immune to all electrical-based attacks (Trygon Static discharge, for example)."

Hope this works

Well, that pisses off necrons.
Half their weapons are electricity based.

Ratius wrote:I personally feel he is totally overpowered.
However I acknowledge its an experimental ruleset and you've clarified you have added in rules yourself.

However I'll highlight my issues:
No points value listed.

WS and BS 5 make him as combat hardy and experienced as either a Marine Captain or an Eldar Exarch which I simply dont believe, either from a fluff perspective or a ruleset.
Jensen has been augmented, thats accepted but those augs are 21st century tech and whilst very good, dont compare to 40k stuff imho (yes I know there are ongoing debates that modern tech is as good as 40k but I dont believe that personally and its yet to be fully endorsed by either GW officially, hence its canon breaking).

T5 and W5 give him more wounds than a Hive Tyrant and nearly as tough as a Carnifex. There is virtually nothing within DX3 to support this. Ingame Jensen still dies to short ursts of machine gun fire, is suceptible without upgrades to fire and shock has no head armor and can be beaten in hand to hand combat (read the girl boss) who is not as well augmented.

I7 and A5 for me though are the breaker. Hes technically better in combat than the Swarmlord? Just no Im afraid.
He is human, an augmented human but human nevertheless. Currently only Eversors in terms of human ability have these stats and they are literally bred and trained for years and years to reach that level, in addition to being bred specially to be combat monsters.
Adam Jensen is not.

His special rules:
CASIE and hacking are just completely outside of the 40k ruleset, something which is always dangerous to do. There are few if any precedents for them and they fundamentally change the basic ruleset. They need to be amended heavily imho.

I dont believe his cyber arm should give him 2d6 pen. Ingame he can ounch through walls sure but not every wall (ie hardended, steel etc) and 2d6 puts him as effective as a melta bomb which is a small thermo nuclear charge. D6 maybe.

TES needs clarificartion, what str, ap etc?

DRE and PEPS are a bit jaw dropping tbh. They are just simply overpowered and dont really require an explanation as to why.

Fair play for writing the rules up but I'd suggest trying a few games out as they stand and seeing how powerful he is as a lone human.

I simply dont agree with them on any level Im afraid :(

There's also the fact that he can only punch through 'weakened' walls.

From the first post, I immediately thought.... OP, this is pretty insane. He'd be more of a fun unit to make use of his stealth abilities, these stats make him completely ridiculous, considering the fact that if you send him into combat in DX3 he'd fold like a cheap hooker.

Titan Atlas wrote:

Ratius wrote:I personally feel he is totally overpowered.
However I acknowledge its an experimental ruleset and you've clarified you have added in rules yourself.

However I'll highlight my issues:
No points value listed.

WS and BS 5 make him as combat hardy and experienced as either a Marine Captain or an Eldar Exarch which I simply dont believe, either from a fluff perspective or a ruleset.
Jensen has been augmented, thats accepted but those augs are 21st century tech and whilst very good, dont compare to 40k stuff imho (yes I know there are ongoing debates that modern tech is as good as 40k but I dont believe that personally and its yet to be fully endorsed by either GW officially, hence its canon breaking).

T5 and W5 give him more wounds than a Hive Tyrant and nearly as tough as a Carnifex. There is virtually nothing within DX3 to support this. Ingame Jensen still dies to short ursts of machine gun fire, is suceptible without upgrades to fire and shock has no head armor and can be beaten in hand to hand combat (read the girl boss) who is not as well augmented.

I7 and A5 for me though are the breaker. Hes technically better in combat than the Swarmlord? Just no Im afraid.
He is human, an augmented human but human nevertheless. Currently only Eversors in terms of human ability have these stats and they are literally bred and trained for years and years to reach that level, in addition to being bred specially to be combat monsters.
Adam Jensen is not.

His special rules:
CASIE and hacking are just completely outside of the 40k ruleset, something which is always dangerous to do. There are few if any precedents for them and they fundamentally change the basic ruleset. They need to be amended heavily imho.

I dont believe his cyber arm should give him 2d6 pen. Ingame he can ounch through walls sure but not every wall (ie hardended, steel etc) and 2d6 puts him as effective as a melta bomb which is a small thermo nuclear charge. D6 maybe.

TES needs clarificartion, what str, ap etc?

DRE and PEPS are a bit jaw dropping tbh. They are just simply overpowered and dont really require an explanation as to why.

Fair play for writing the rules up but I'd suggest trying a few games out as they stand and seeing how powerful he is as a lone human.

I simply dont agree with them on any level Im afraid :(

There's also the fact that he can only punch through 'weakened' walls.

From the first post, I immediately thought.... OP, this is pretty insane. He'd be more of a fun unit to make use of his stealth abilities, these stats make him completely ridiculous, considering the fact that if you send him into combat in DX3 he'd fold like a cheap hooker.

that was his stats in the Spin-off of My own Movie Project cuz like many other characters in this project(and it's subsequent works), he's more OP than his canon self(when it comes to the version of Adam Jensen that we uses in 40k according to this thread)