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Let me preface this with the fact that I think they all can be competitive, but I am curious how everyone rates them and why. I have only seen a few played, but here is how I rank them so far:

1. Space Wolves
2. Grey Knights
3. Blood Angels
4. Vanilla Marines

Havok210 wrote:Let me preface this with the fact that I think they all can be competitive, but I am curious how everyone rates them and why. I have only seen a few played, but here is how I rank them so far:

1. Space Wolves
2. Space Wolves
3. Space Wolves
..

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.. long time of nothing
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4. Grey Knights
5. Blood Angels
6. Vanilla Marines

Fixed that for you.

Havok210 wrote:Let me preface this with the fact that I think they all can be competitive, but I am curious how everyone rates them and why. I have only seen a few played, but here is how I rank them so far:

1. Space Wolves
2. Grey Knights
3. Blood Angels
4. Vanilla Marines

1. Grey Knights
2. Space Wolves
3. Blood Angels
4.Vanilla Marines
5. Chaos Space Marines
6. Black Templars
7. Dark Angels

I think you have to give it to grey knights over space wolves because all those force weapons essentially neutralize space wolves' best unit, thunder wolf cavalry. Also because GK aren't dependent on transports the way other marine armies are they have less to fear from all the missile launchers that space wolves can take, which is another main strength of that army.

Nah. Grey Knights have access to tools that can neutralize some Space Wolves tricks. But unlike Space Wolves, they have to pay for them, so it balances out far, far, far better than with Wolves.

Grey Knights are Marines+, but for more points per body. To win, they have to leverage their advantage as they comparatively lack in numbers.

Space Wolves are Marines+, but for less points for body. To win, they just have to sit there and roll dice as they get to have the cake and eat it too.

The only 3 that I think are easy to place are sw, gk and ba. The rest kinda depend on the player and list.
1. Sw
2. Gk
3. Ba
4. Bt/vanilla
5. Csm
6. Dark Angels

I still place Sw ahead of gk because sw vs most armies is a little bit better prepared and don't have to be close.

1.GK
2.SW
3.BA
4.Vanilla
5.BT
6.DA

Grey Knights may have to pay a premium for their bag of tricks, but IMO their tricks are better than those of space wolves for their points.

1. SW (Easily 1.. Too much undercosted)
2. GK
3. BA
4. Vanilla
5. CSM
6. BT
7. DA (One build is great though)

Grey Knights are more expensive than normal marines, it's true, but they aren't so hard up for numbers that it seems to hinder them much. Like I said Grey Knights have the tools to nullify the best units in the Space Wolves codex, so that's why I give it to them.

This isn't gk vs other marines. It's the army vs EVERYONE. lol
Sorry but long fangs are cheap and better vs everything them psyfleman. They can do rb spam really well. They get access to cheap melta which gk can't unless they go henchman. They have good spammable psykers with excellent psy defense. 6 units can get the anti psyker charm to cancel powers on a 4+. Thats better then a hood.

Yes gk are good but sw have some awesome tools vs all comers that I think eeck out gk.

/shrug. I find that, at the "competitive" end, Space Wolves dominate precisely because of their ability to "out-MSU" all others (save Dark Eldar Venom-Spam perhaps), target more units than most with "split fire" (without giving up kill points through combat squads), maxmise the autarky of each MSU on the table due to not only ridiculously low point costs, but also counter-attack, far less restrictive special-weapon rules allowing them to pack more "utility" into each MSU than anyone else, even spice them up further with unsurpassed access to HQ-utility for, again, ridiculously undercosted point values. No Grey Knight (or any other Marine army) can rival that. Whatever "tricks" any other army may bring or not bring is irrelevant as the sheer target redunancy and "unpaid-for" flexibility of a strong Wolves-list makes them all mute, and, thats the kicker, without even knowing what "tricks" you need to bring. Every GK (or other army) "trick" is contingent on its utility against a given opponent. Undercosted Wolf-spam never is.

1. SW
2. BA
3. GK
4. SM
5. CSM
6. DA
7. BT

I rank them as such based on my experience. I've seen BA players win more often than GK players. And I've seen BA players beat GK players more often than the alternative. But SW have so much at their disposal, they can counter anything with relative ease, and they do things better than other armies that specialize in those things. For example, SW can field SO much destructive long range heavy support it's vomit inducing. And they can do it for less than IG can. They can rush you down and rip you to shreds in close combat faster and more efficiently than Orks, for lesser cost of course. And they don't run away. They're SM so they have the edge in any objective game. SW really are the most competitive SM army. Really the most competitive 40k army IMO. I do like playing against them though. My buddy fields them and we always have fun games.

1- SW
2- GK
3- BA
4- Vanilla
5- BT
6- DA
7- CSM

1. gk
2. gk
3. gk name one unit that the knights cant handle

wpago wrote:1. gk
2. gk
3. gk name one unit that the knights cant handle

If you cherry pick then yes they can but so can any 5th edition codex.

Name one unit the gk have that no one can handle and you'd be lying.

Draigo wrote:

wpago wrote:1. gk
2. gk
3. gk name one unit that the knights cant handle

If you cherry pick then yes they can but so can any 5th edition codex.

I agree that tailoring is always helpful but I'm not sure about saying that any 5th Edition codex can tailor against any army and definately win. Although if you go with the example presented of tailoring against a unit then yeah. Vanilla Marines can tailor against certain match ups but against some armies they'd still struggle even if they tailored, same with Dark Eldar, and Tyranids.

1 GK
2 Space Wolves
3 Vanilla marines

GK with crowe, purifier spam and dreadnaught spam is nasty hard to beat

Space wolves have always been hardcore and dont look like changing anytime soon - loganwing is very cool as well. The thunder wolves are a tough unit to try and get around but personally I find the idea of a space marine riding a wolf in the 41st millenium beyond *expletive*

Not to mention lone wolves I mean what the ...

Vanilla marines are soooo goood. The choice to fail leadership then auto regroup, marine biker armies are just bad azzzzzzzzz

1. GK
2. SW
3. BA
4. SM
5. BT/DA

Are Vanilla Marines competitive at all?

Reading this just makes me depressed since I invested so much into regular marines before finally realizing they were so meh.

shamroll wrote:Are Vanilla Marines competitive at all?

Reading this just makes me depressed since I invested so much into regular marines before finally realizing they were so meh.

They're at a distinct disadvantage against blood angels, grey knights, and space wolves.
That being said they do have some strong assets.
Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield terminators are still some of the best assault troops in the game. Likewise Nullzone for psychic powers, and Vulkan for special characters. Overall the codex suffers from a lack of specialization. If you read the fluff, you might think that's a good thing, the way they're always talking about how great it is to be flexible. But in the game itself, what really pays is to have a definite strategy from turn 1 and to stick to it. Because vanilla marines don't do specialization very well, they can't really commit to any one strategy, and always end up second best. The codex is also bogged down by pitiful troop choices. Point for point tacticals are one of the worst troop choices in any codex. Scouts are a little better, but they don't really solve the problem. In order to be really flexible, tacticals would have to look more like stern guard. As it is now they're just bad at everything.

Rampage wrote:

Draigo wrote:

wpago wrote:1. gk
2. gk
3. gk name one unit that the knights cant handle

If you cherry pick then yes they can but so can any 5th edition codex.

I agree that tailoring is always helpful but I'm not sure about saying that any 5th Edition codex can tailor against any army and definately win. Although if you go with the example presented of tailoring against a unit then yeah. Vanilla Marines can tailor against certain match ups but against some armies they'd still struggle even if they tailored, same with Dark Eldar, and Tyranids.

i mean point to point and is something usally taken in a grey knight list.

GreatGunz wrote:

shamroll wrote:Are Vanilla Marines competitive at all?

Reading this just makes me depressed since I invested so much into regular marines before finally realizing they were so meh.

They're at a distinct disadvantage against blood angels, grey knights, and space wolves.
That being said they do have some strong assets.
Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield terminators are still some of the best assault troops in the game. Likewise Nullzone for psychic powers, and Vulkan for special characters. Overall the codex suffers from a lack of specialization. If you read the fluff, you might think that's a good thing, the way they're always talking about how great it is to be flexible. But in the game itself, what really pays is to have a definite strategy from turn 1 and to stick to it. Because vanilla marines don't do specialization very well, they can't really commit to any one strategy, and always end up second best. The codex is also bogged down by pitiful troop choices. Point for point tacticals are one of the worst troop choices in any codex. Scouts are a little better, but they don't really solve the problem. In order to be really flexible, tacticals would have to look more like stern guard. As it is now they're just bad at everything.

What would you recommend then? I do also play BA so should I focus on them completely for tournaments since it seems cheaper (monetary wise) to convert from Vanilla Marines to BA? Or would you recommend going straight to SW or GK? I'd still probably play Vanilla Marines in a non-competitive sense since I have so many options for chapter tactics and FW stuff. I've also thought about building a Siege Assault Vanguard army but that would probably never see tournament play.

shamroll wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:

shamroll wrote:Are Vanilla Marines competitive at all?

Reading this just makes me depressed since I invested so much into regular marines before finally realizing they were so meh.

They're at a distinct disadvantage against blood angels, grey knights, and space wolves.
That being said they do have some strong assets.
Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield terminators are still some of the best assault troops in the game. Likewise Nullzone for psychic powers, and Vulkan for special characters. Overall the codex suffers from a lack of specialization. If you read the fluff, you might think that's a good thing, the way they're always talking about how great it is to be flexible. But in the game itself, what really pays is to have a definite strategy from turn 1 and to stick to it. Because vanilla marines don't do specialization very well, they can't really commit to any one strategy, and always end up second best. The codex is also bogged down by pitiful troop choices. Point for point tacticals are one of the worst troop choices in any codex. Scouts are a little better, but they don't really solve the problem. In order to be really flexible, tacticals would have to look more like stern guard. As it is now they're just bad at everything.

What would you recommend then? I do also play BA so should I focus on them completely for tournaments since it seems cheaper (monetary wise) to convert from Vanilla Marines to BA? Or would you recommend going straight to SW or GK? I'd still probably play Vanilla Marines in a non-competitive sense since I have so many options for chapter tactics and FW stuff. I've also thought about building a Siege Assault Vanguard army but that would probably never see tournament play.

If you just want to play tournaments I'd make them grey knights. space wolves are fine too. I would avoid blood angels because they more or less got kicked out of the tournament scene by the grey knights book. All those furious charge marines die horribly to init 6 power weapons, and the other good strategy - spamming razor backs - dies horribly to all those psycannons and psyflemen. For the long term though I think you should just put the tournament scene aside and just play what you like. Atleast for me, it's too much money and effort to change armies every few months to stay competitive. Space marines will get their turn again soon enough, although tacticals will probably always be awful.

shamroll wrote:Are Vanilla Marines competitive at all?

Reading this just makes me depressed since I invested so much into regular marines before finally realizing they were so meh.

To me, it almost seems like all the other SM armies can do everything the Vanilla Marines can do...but a little better/cheaper. I have browsed the SW codex and own the BA one and that is the conclusion I have come up with.

1. GK
2. SW
3. BA
4. SM/CSM
5. BT/DA

1. GK (over costed but every single model has power weapons and if you take crowe and purifiers nothing can handle them.)

Grey knights destory wolves in all aspects, cool wolf lord doesnt matter vindicare takes his save every model rocking a force weapon...ur killer hero hammer models dies no prob.

Everything SW do, GK do better. Long fangs are great counters but cannot win you the game.

Tons of psycannons kill razorback spam.

If wolves drop pod in its only to their own death.

A good GK player doesnt need to fear wolves.

SM armor doesnt matter when ur going up against units with all power weapons and halberds.
I play very competitively and honestly never have seen and SM army hold up against GK.

I am also not talking about tailoring here I am talking
all comers list vs. all comers list.

However if we were to tailor we have a counter for everything so...
2. SW
3. BA
4. Chaos SM
6-7. Black Temp and reg SM tie
8. DA



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to mention...GK have fortitude on their vehicles for free and have no need for drop pods, we can deep strike without them. So less KP to give up.

I think the Grey Knights are the most powerful codex that can HARD counter many of the "big toys" BUT there are armies/builds that do give them trouble. Where the Space Wolves may not have the spike in power that the GK have but they do better against all opponents for the most part since they can cover all their bases better. That said, I still say GK because if your group has a few players you kinda have to tailor your list based on them at least a little bit.

So my list is much like what everyone said so far for the most part...

1> Grey Knights
2> Space Wolves
3> Blood Angels
4> The rest are tied (Space Marine, Black Templar, Chaos Marine)

C:SM is a very competative book. It's just not as easy to find the tournament winning take all comer list in the Vanilla book as it is in SW BA and GK.

Purifier spam is a good build but at the end of they day you are dealing with between 15 and 25 power armour marines, 3-5 light armourn transports, and between 2-6 av 12 vehichles. Good vanilla marines definetly can bring whats needed to handle that.

With the latest release (Stormtalon), does anyone think the Vanilla Marines became more competitive?

No, I personally don't rate the Stormtalon. I'm still sticking with my previous order of

1.GK
2.SW
3.BA
4.SM
5.BT
6.DA

even though in the time period between me last posting in this thread and now I have picked up a Space Wolves army.

SW
GK
BA
SM
BT
DA

DA can fight, but they have one competitive build. Woot, Terminator Troops army!

Wait, Loganwing? Draigowing?

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-