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I have been thinking, with the changes to 8th edition allowing supporting attacks, maybe it's time to drop the lance formation. Twelve knights in lance formation (with champion) get 11 knight attacks and 10 horse attacks with +3 rank bonus. If they were in a 6x2 formation they would get 13 knight attacks and 6 horse attacks with +1 rank bonus.

They would give up 4 horse attacks and +2 rank bonus to gain 2 knight attacks.

BUT

If they were given 'devastating charge' (as long as they have the blessing) they would than get (in 6x2 formation) 19 knight attacks and 6 horse attacks +1 rank bonus.

Seems like a good trade and fits 8th edition better. Would also re-instate Bretonnia as the preeminent land of knights.

The key is that they only get devastating charge while the blessing is active.

Any thoughts?

Hmmm I like it the proposed rule BUT you didnt take into account that lance formation has a much smaller footprint allowing alot more units to combine charge a target.

But yeah I totally agree its time for lance formation to go it creates more problems then its solves.

Jubear wrote:Hmmm I like it the proposed rule BUT you didnt take into account that lance formation has a much smaller footprint allowing alot more units to combine charge a target.

But yeah I totally agree its time for lance formation to go it creates more problems then its solves.

I actually did consider this but given the cost of knights it is not always possible to double charge as you may not have enough knightly units. By increasing the knights hitting power you can use one unit of knights, say flank charging, while the infantry attacks from the front to deny steadfast.

Jubear wrote:Hmmm I like it the proposed rule BUT you didnt take into account that lance formation has a much smaller footprint allowing alot more units to combine charge a target.

But yeah I totally agree its time for lance formation to go it creates more problems then its solves.

Smaller footprint? 12 is 12. More narrow, with bigger flank, wider, smaller flank.
I like the loss of lance, because it will force people to do smarter things with the knights... like throw them into flanks.

A wide formation with devistating charge is more durable than a traditional lance. If you take four losses before you swing, a normal lance is down to 9 attacks + 8 horses, and the new one is still tossing out 15 attacks +6 horses.

9 attacks is going to have a hard time winning a round of combat, 15 still has a good shot.



-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Jubear wrote:Hmmm I like it the proposed rule BUT you didnt take into account that lance formation has a much smaller footprint allowing alot more units to combine charge a target.

But yeah I totally agree its time for lance formation to go it creates more problems then its solves.

Smaller footprint? 12 is 12. More narrow, with bigger flank, wider, smaller flank.
I like the loss of lance, because it will force people to do smarter things with the knights... like throw them into flanks.

A wide formation with devistating charge is more durable than a traditional lance. If you take four losses before you swing, a normal lance is down to 9 attacks + 8 horses, and the new one is still tossing out 15 attacks +6 horses.

9 attacks is going to have a hard time winning a round of combat, 15 still has a good shot.



-Matt

Sorry smaller frontage might have been a better way of putting it.

It could work, although I think the rank bonus is pretty important.

Brettonians, because of lance, are about the only cavelry in the game that have a chance of outranking the enemy.

With the casualities they can cause on the charge they have the possability of whittling down all but the deepest buses. Certaintly they could equal the ranks of your typical Horde or medium block of ~25

It also reduces the damage you will take in return. a 6 wide unit of Knights is going to get hit with everything the enemies got, a 3 wide unit will only take about half the attacks(assuming basic infantry) 2+ armor only goes so far when you are T3.

I think Devestating Charge plus the Lance formation allowing the dudes on the side of the lance to count as being in base to base(getting the additional attack)

Grey Templar wrote:It could work, although I think the rank bonus is pretty important.

Brettonians, because of lance, are about the only cavelry in the game that have a chance of outranking the enemy.

With the casualities they can cause on the charge they have the possability of whittling down all but the deepest buses. Certaintly they could equal the ranks of your typical Horde or medium block of ~25

It also reduces the damage you will take in return. a 6 wide unit of Knights is going to get hit with everything the enemies got, a 3 wide unit will only take about half the attacks(assuming basic infantry) 2+ armor only goes so far when you are T3.

I think Devestating Charge plus the Lance formation allowing the dudes on the side of the lance to count as being in base to base(getting the additional attack)

3 wide knights are touching 5 models. 6 wide knights are touching 5-8 models, depending on how wide your opponent is. It's not a huge difference in how many attacks they take.
Empire knight hordes do just fine.
Most armies can't do knights effectively because they are too expensive. Brets and Empire have the advantage of core knights; nobody else has that option.

-Matt

I like the Lance formation as I find it scary as hell to watch x3 lances of knight slam into x1 horde of my Lothern Sea Guard...thank GOD for always strike first and Okamns Mindrazor . However besides that I believe that the Lance formation is still very good, especially in regards to characters as if the player is smart, their casters are always protected in the 2nd rank because of it and it fits the fluff of them forming "wedges" to better penetrate the enemy lines. Also they should not have to worry about their exposed flanks as if they are smart they will have some sort of unit either screening or there to threaten the flank of any enemy units that charge it, also a wider front either in regards to flank or front has its risks.

Really the Bretonnians just need a rule/book update that would make the Lance formation perform better, personally I think the addition of Impact Hits (seriously a heavily armored knight and horse is going to send infantry flying, thinking of 1 impact hit each or maybe D3 for every rank the unit has) or some other rules to maybe make it more worthwhile should be added.

2 rows of anything over 5 knights means more then likely there not getting all there attacks in cc. lance is better unless you know someone is putting big globs of core units in there army.

gmaleron wrote: personally I think the addition of Impact Hits (seriously a heavily armored knight and horse is going to send infantry flying, thinking of 1 impact hit each or maybe D3 for every rank the unit has) or some other rules to maybe make it more worthwhile should be added.

I think something like this is more likely in a new army book. They seem to be trimming away the 'special' rules exceptions, and this seems a nice way to represent the lance formation using a new 8th ed mechanic.

Yeah, impact hits could be a nice little buff for Brettonians.

Maybe 1 per model in the front rank +1 for each complete rank of 3 the unit has. All resolved at Str4.

I just went to Medieval Times today and had the urge to play Brets....

Such a pretty army.... Too bad I cant paint and dont like horses lol