Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, I'm starting an Imperial guard army and I fancy making it quite artillery heavy, however, I'm not familiar with the ins and outs of artillery as I've avoided it in the past, I mostly playing against horde armies and Necrons - could anyone suggest where best to start?

Thanks

If you´re playing against hordes, look no further then the basic guardsman. Guard can out-horde basically any horde (baseline: 20-men blobs with a commissar + power weapons). Other then that, look to anything with a template (like Griffons, Russes, etc.) or a large amount of shots (Multilasers, etc.).

Necrons are a bit different: they have good AS´s (3+ or 4+) and can put out a decent amount of fire while being hard to put down. Whatever you do, focus on taking them down a single squad at a time before moving on to a new target, and CC the remains (lonely Crypteks and small groups of Warriors/Immortals don´t put up much of a fight, Lords are a bit more dangerous but managable by most squads).

Personally, the few times i have used and arty battery i have been pretty dissapointed, never hit on those dang dice but that is just poor luck on my behalf, only gotta hit once i usually field 2 basilisks and a medusa, but i have in the past proxied the basilisks for griffons when i was facing orcs and i had a lot more fun with those lovley rerolls on the scatter dice. but really i find russes to be more useful, bog standard leman russ BT can do ALOT of hurty.

If you really want an effective barrage, look no further than the Griffon. Accurate Bombardment gives you the option of re-rolling the scatter die. At strength 6, AP4, Ordnance Barrage, there's no Horde that can withstand a barrage of two or three for long; maybe one-two turns? With a 12" Blind Spot and 48" reach, it's perfect to spam batteries of them if need be.

The Colossus is another, more stronger artillery than the Griffin. With its AP 3 and Ignores Cover attributes, not even Marines can withstand that Ordnance. The downside is its 24" Blind spot, which can be circumvented by spreading each battery out.

They're the only two pieces that can fire indirectly for the majority of the game, which can be pretty powerful in its own right.

The Medusae are rather fragile. They have to fire directly, which means an enclosed crew compartment, or Camo Netting, so it can try to deflect killing shots a little better. Bastion Breacher Shells are very tempting, being strength 10...

Don´t make the mistake of overestimating your templates though...a good opponent wil make maximum use of the 2"-coherency-rule to spread his troops out, and probably get cover if you play with the correct number of terrain-pieces.

Both can seriously cramp your artillery´s style, so don´t be surprised if something does make it to your lines...better be prepared for that as well.

So, if I do decide to use artillery, use griffins? Oh and, is there anyway to change the thread title, its annoying me...

Griffins allow you to take on light to medium (Meq) infantry. That's it. If you feel your list needs more things against infantry, then Griffins are a decent choice
Colossi are nice if your opponent likes to put Meq in area terrain cover. That's their niche. Otherwise, use . . .
Basilisks. Ap3 allows you to engage Meq, Indirect fire allows you to engage targets in cover, the range lets you hit anywhere on the table (Minimum range only applies to Indirect Fire), and S9 Ordnance is at least decent for taking out enemy vehicles. Basilisks are great generalists.
Medusa: a slightly longer ranged Demolisher. Bastion Breacher Shells are only a small blast, and therefore of limited use. I'd probably just take the Leman Russ instead.
Manticore: Another great option. S10 d3 shots means it's a good choice against both hordes and vehicles. You can almost never go wrong with bringing at least one.

What you bring should depend on the rest of your list. Alternatively, the rest of your list should complement your artillery. If you're just starting out, buy a Manticore. It's going to be useful one way or another. Medusas and Colossi are fairly niche tanks, so you probably shouldn't buy them if you're just starting out. Both the Basilisk and Griffin provide a fairly broad target profile (Griffin: Infantry, Basilisk: Pretty much everything, though neither is optimal against terminators) so neither will really be a waste if you decide to get one.

I think the Grifffon is pretty cost effective for what it does. Units have a harder time getting cover from barrage weapons. For what most of the other artillery costs, you can get 2 in a squadron, keep them out of enemy LoS and just spam pieplates on them the whole game.

taopaipai18 wrote:Personally, the few times i have used and arty battery i have been pretty dissapointed

Yeah, this was my experience too. The math on artillery is really tough, as there is an awful lot of things that are difficult to control for, while it's hard to get a deviation set out of something that includes "hitting dead on against non-displaced units" and "scatters 12" off the board entirely". I think it's easy to see the hypothetical maximum damage that artillery can do, and then get blinded to the fact that they'll never do it.

As for what artillery to take, that kind of depends on your list, but the best artillery pieces are those that can effectively threaten both parking lots and hordes at the same time. The jewel in this crown is the manticore, being able to throw down multiple shots of S10 ordnance against vehicles, and multiple large blast templates against hordes. After this, it's probably the basilisk, which loses the extra shots, but gains the ability to also threaten MEq targets, and the deathstrike, which can handle everything, but you've got to have a lot more patience for the random firing thing than your average guard commander.

Everything else is niche, at best, or redundant compared to what your troops choices are already doing at worst.

Point for point a single griffon is an amazing unit if the IG army can spare a heavy support slot.

It wounds orks and MEQ on a 2+
It straight up kills dark eldar with or without a pain token.

Point for point it's also on par with a Colossus against MEQ in cover. With the colossus being twice as expensive it comes to 1 dead marine versus 2 armor saves on a 3+. Initial math hammer will show the 1 dead marine is better, but when you take into account the griffon is twin linked and will hit far more often they perform about the same.

Usually there is only 1 or 2 really good shots for indirect fire per turn, and the usual target is infantry hiding behind a vehicle or wreck. Given the lack of optimal targets a single twin linked shot that wounds on a 2+ has some definite merit.

The griffon is pretty damn cheap, and goes well with AV12 spam.

Last as an amusing side note is the griffon doesn't really have a true blind spot. Yes it can't direct fire, and has a 12" minimum range on indirect fire, but it also has a heavy flamer. If an infantry unit goes into a griffon's blind spot the unit is in range for a 6" move + heavy flamer.

Okay then, rather than going for an enormous artillery battery, I'm thinking I will go for 2-3 griffins.

Ailaros wrote:

taopaipai18 wrote:Personally, the few times i have used and arty battery i have been pretty dissapointed

Yeah, this was my experience too. The math on artillery is really tough, as there is an awful lot of things that are difficult to control for, while it's hard to get a deviation set out of something that includes "hitting dead on against non-displaced units" and "scatters 12" off the board entirely". I think it's easy to see the hypothetical maximum damage that artillery can do, and then get blinded to the fact that they'll never do it.

As for what artillery to take, that kind of depends on your list, but the best artillery pieces are those that can effectively threaten both parking lots and hordes at the same time. The jewel in this crown is the manticore, being able to throw down multiple shots of S10 ordnance against vehicles, and multiple large blast templates against hordes. After this, it's probably the basilisk, which loses the extra shots, but gains the ability to also threaten MEq targets, and the deathstrike, which can handle everything, but you've got to have a lot more patience for the random firing thing than your average guard commander.

Everything else is niche, at best, or redundant compared to what your troops choices are already doing at worst.

I'm a big fan of the Manticore. S10, AP4, an average of two large blaste templates... it's hard to not do something when you fire, and with its range and statline you'll always have something to be firing at. What you can't really threaten (Sv2/3, cover, multiple high AV) the rest of most Guard armies will be capable of handling in one way or another.

Strange that I'm not seeing basilisks suggested, my firend can wreack havoc on him necrons with them...

MunGo_0600 wrote:Okay then, rather than going for an enormous artillery battery, I'm thinking I will go for 2-3 griffins.

Or 2 griffons and Manticore. Total would come to 310 leaving plenty of room for all the other good stuff in the IG codex (like 3 vendettas)

My words of caution about the manticore...People hate them so expect it to be a high priority target. No matter what the board looks like there is always only 1 single best place to deploy a manticore in your own deployment zone. A 2nd manticore would mean deploying the 2nd manticore in a location that is not as good as the best location, or deploying 320 points of manticore in 1 location. IMO both options have serious flaws, which is why I favor single manticore lists. In the majority of games I play the single manticore lives long enough to get off all 4 storm eagles.

My personal preferred deployment in single objective missions is to deploy my objective in 1 corner, and place a single manticore in the opposite corner.

If you really want to go artillery heavy the other option would be 2 manticores and a griffon. My personal favorite heavy support combo for Ig is 1 manticore 1 hydra 1 griffon.

Idk... I'd take basilisks if we were playing on a 10 foot board since that's their range.. otherwise if I had the funds I'd set up a battery and have one griffin, and 2 colossi, that way if you fire the griffin first you can pit all of your ordinance together and have each shot land almost exactly where you want it.. griffin on squishes out of cover, the colossi on anything in cover adjacent to the first hit. They would be vulnerable to close combat, and only extremely accurate within 48 inches.. but you would murder everyone in CoD denying cover saves and crushing infantry under the buildings they'll be taking cover from, and then forcing them to take a pinning test on top of all of that. Not sure what else you plan on putting in your army, but any variant of the Leman Russ is great if you don't want loads of infantry. If you want loads of infantry, pick up lascannons and meltaweapons and have your ordinance deal with the enemy's infantry while your troops go tank hunting. Emperor have mercy on anyone who doesn't close the gap on you.... and if you still have points to spare.. go with Colonel Straken with some power weapons and watch your infantry actually do something in Close Combat other than clog up the arteries to your artillery.

Manticores are brutal. D3 S10 templates wrecks face against just about anything. The griffon is a great, cheap artillery platform that tends to be overlooked, which can make it shine.

As to hull weapons, I would recommend heavy flamers. It is useful to have something that can clear out stuff that likes to get close.

schadenfreude wrote:Point for point a single griffon is an amazing unit if the IG army can spare a heavy support slot.

It wounds orks and MEQ on a 2+
It straight up kills dark eldar with or without a pain token.

... but.

- It doesn't ignore MEq armor saves. Against displaced marines, you're looking at roughly one kill per shot. Looking at only what it wounds on while ignoring the rest skews the results.

- Likewise, it does practically nothing to termies, monstrous creatures, or deathstars.

- Without ordnance, it's not doing anything to a lot of vehicles, and still isn't great against most of what's left.

- It doesn't ignore cover saves, meaning most of the time, it's half as good as you think it is.

Griffons are cheap for a reason. They don't kill very much, and what they do kill is sort of relegated to a narrow band of targets. If you need something to kill bunched up boyz mobs all the time, then go right ahead, but otherwise, it's a niche weapon. If you need something to handle the niche (which, in this particular case, overlaps with all those lasguns or hull heavy bolters/multilasers), then go ahead, but otherwise it's not adding much to a guard list.

Which is why most guardsmen pass on them of things like manticores or basilisks (or, outside of artillery, russes and hydras), which can just do more damage to more target types.

Ailaros wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Point for point a single griffon is an amazing unit if the IG army can spare a heavy support slot.

It wounds orks and MEQ on a 2+
It straight up kills dark eldar with or without a pain token.

... but.

- It doesn't ignore MEq armor saves. Against displaced marines, you're looking at roughly one kill per shot. Looking at only what it wounds on while ignoring the rest skews the results.

- Likewise, it does practically nothing to termies, monstrous creatures, or deathstars.

The same could be applied to the Manticore, except the Griffon is much, much cheaper. And you can't theory hammer template weapons, so don't even try...

- Without ordnance, it's not doing anything to a lot of vehicles, and still isn't great against most of what's left.

All the artillery have Ordnance Barrage except the Medusa. And this is the Manticores only saving grace of why you'd bother with Strength 10.

- It doesn't ignore cover saves, meaning most of the time, it's half as good as you think it is.

Neither does the Manticore. Except for the Colossus, Barrage weapons ignore area terrain if the center lands into the terrain. I don't know where you're trying to go with this point...

Griffons are cheap for a reason. They don't kill very much.

Lolwut.

I would say that the Manticore and the Griffin are the only worthwhile Artillery for the guard, single pie plates just aren't accurate enough. The Manticore makes up for this in numbers, the Griffin with its re-rolls(and cheapness).
Over all I'd go for Manticores since you have to squadron Griffins to get the most out of them and squadrons suck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KplKeegan wrote:
Neither does the Manticore. Except for the Colossus, Barrage weapons ignore area terrain if the center lands into the terrain. I don't know where you're trying to go with this point...

You sure about that?
Page 58. Says you work out cover from the centre of the blast template. I.E. you get cover for area terrain.

Ailaros wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Point for point a single griffon is an amazing unit if the IG army can spare a heavy support slot.

It wounds orks and MEQ on a 2+
It straight up kills dark eldar with or without a pain token.

... but.

- It doesn't ignore MEq armor saves. Against displaced marines, you're looking at roughly one kill per shot. Looking at only what it wounds on while ignoring the rest skews the results.

- Likewise, it does practically nothing to termies, monstrous creatures, or deathstars.

- Without ordnance, it's not doing anything to a lot of vehicles, and still isn't great against most of what's left.

- It doesn't ignore cover saves, meaning most of the time, it's half as good as you think it is.

Griffons are cheap for a reason. They don't kill very much, and what they do kill is sort of relegated to a narrow band of targets. If you need something to kill bunched up boyz mobs all the time, then go right ahead, but otherwise, it's a niche weapon. If you need something to handle the niche (which, in this particular case, overlaps with all those lasguns or hull heavy bolters/multilasers), then go ahead, but otherwise it's not adding much to a guard list.

Which is why most guardsmen pass on them of things like manticores or basilisks (or, outside of artillery, russes and hydras), which can just do more damage to more target types.

Displaced or not displaced large blasts tend to catch a lot of marines if it's centered on a transport they just jumped out of. Also 8 or 9 MEQ don't displace all that great inside a rhino sized wreck/crater. I also said in my post that there is usually only 1 really good shots per turn to be taken by a large blast. With a griffon + manticore the griffon gives the manticore the option to keep shooting at vehicles.

Termies/deathstars in today's meta frequently means paladins + mechanized henchmen. It won't hurt the termies, or the vehicle mechanized henchmen are in, but IG sure is good at opening transports, and griffons sure are good at killing GEQ that are blown out of their transport.

MC frequently means nids or necrons. Forcing the gaunts into area terrain will slow them down. Scarabs are a high priority target for mech IG, and griffons are TL ID to scarabs. Scarabs move a lot faster when they can hide behind screening units rather than moving through difficult terrain.

It doesn't ignore cover saves, which is irrelevant when shooting at MEQ. Also MEQ/Wyches/Scarabs are not max displaced after blowing up a Chimera in CC.

It's also forces pinning tests, which is a big deal if the IG army makes good use of PBS.

At 2k I'm running 1 manticore, 1 griffon, 1 hydra, 3 vendettas, 2 pbs, marbo, 1 platoon, 3 mech vets, 2 ccs, and am loaded with AC/Metla/Multi laser shots. I can afford for the 3.75% of my points that were spend on a griffon to occasionally flop and only kill 2 marines in an entire battle when the unit shines in other battles.

I'd say try the Manticore , Hydra and Basilisk.
I can't stand having a min. range. I get the "OMG the Griffon is the hottness", to a point.
The fact that it's Ap 4 with a 12" min. range means I don't use them. Hell, I own 3 of the models.
And yes the Manticore is more expensive, but you get up to 3 blasts for 4 turns. And did I mention
they're Str. 10. That can fire direct if needs be.

Joey wrote:I would say that the Manticore and the Griffin are the only worthwhile Artillery for the guard, single pie plates just aren't accurate enough. The Manticore makes up for this in numbers, the Griffin with its re-rolls(and cheapness).
Over all I'd go for Manticores since you have to squadron Griffins to get the most out of them and squadrons suck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KplKeegan wrote:
Neither does the Manticore. Except for the Colossus, Barrage weapons ignore area terrain if the center lands into the terrain. I don't know where you're trying to go with this point...

You sure about that?
Page 58. Says you work out cover from the centre of the blast template. I.E. you get cover for area terrain.

Btw.. it's page 53 in the IG codex... and it ignore ALL cover. Anything wounded under the template from a Colossus must take an equipped invuln save or a 2+ armor save.. or die.

I'll second (or third, or fourth) the Manticore. As a longtime IG player, I was very much enamored of the Basilisk when I got back to playing under the new codex, but I've recently started using the Manticore. Yes, it's a lower AP, but that d3 Str. 10 makes your opponent worry in a far less rational way than the Earthshaker does(at least in my experience).

Just came from a tournament where I used art batteries in 2 of the three games and the Griffon/Basilisk pairing worked like a charm for 200 pts.

Sure an experienced opponent will spread and all that stuff... except when they cannot. I managed to drop pie plates on units that deep striked, got out of transports and were maneuvering around difficult terrain and the griffon spotting for the basilisk was deadly.

It´s not the weapon to kill all but it´s a more efficient combo that people want to give credit to.

M.

Anyone want to have a go with the Deathstrike Missile Launcher? Nobody has even mentioned it rofl.

As far as I understand, the Deathstrike is just too many points for something that is highly unreliable.

Just bring Leman Russ's. Str 8, 72" Range sand large blast template. Pretty much artillery with no blind spot.

DemetriDominov wrote:Anyone want to have a go with the Deathstrike Missile Launcher? Nobody has even mentioned it rofl.

Honestly I have only heard of people bringing it as a joke and it turns out winning them the game. Ive never used one because I dont have the model but from what I've heard its actually underestimated but some other people might have better insight.

You have some strong choices for artillery. Alot of people swear by the manticore. Str10 D3 blasts are nice, but its only ap4 and costs a whopping 160 points. I like to keep things cheap and/or reliable in heavy support and the manticore is much too hit or miss in my expereince. Here are some of my favorites and why.

Hydra
Your anti-air artillery. Two hydra autocannons pumping out 4 twin linked str7 ap4 shots/turn, with an extra heavy weapon, all on an av12 chassis. 75 points. If it fills a role and complements your core, no reason not take it. With 6th expected to expand fliers the hydra is probably something good to look into.

Griffon
Right, so str6 ap4. Basically a krak large blast between 12-36 inches. What I like about the Griffon is that its still a str6 ordnance (+1 damage result) that rerolls scatter, so it still forces saves as well as moonlights as a light vehicle hunter. Again, for 75 points, if your list needs these areas covered not a bad buy.

Basilisk
For 125 points you can get a str9 ap3 ordnance large blast that can barrage over 36 inches. More importantly, you can also fire it directly. You lose the barrage BUT you also can move and shoot. This duality opens up alot of options on the tabletop for 35 points less than the manticore, and you get ap3.

If pinning gest improved I think the Griffin will be more useful. A squad of 3 is 225 points and could shut down any squad that isn't fearless (assuming you take a pinning test for EACH casualty taken, which would be much better.

Just speculation, of course.

Griffin: Weakest, but most accurate and cheapest.
Basilisk: Middle-of-the-road artillery
Manticore: Lots of str10 blasts
Colossus: Coversave-denying shots
Medusa: Long-ranged demolisher

They all have their uses, though some more than others. The Medusa is in a weird position where the Leman Russ Version seems more cost effective (compared to the Hydra, which is more cost effective than its Leman russ counterpart).

DemetriDominov wrote:

Joey wrote:I would say that the Manticore and the Griffin are the only worthwhile Artillery for the guard, single pie plates just aren't accurate enough. The Manticore makes up for this in numbers, the Griffin with its re-rolls(and cheapness).
Over all I'd go for Manticores since you have to squadron Griffins to get the most out of them and squadrons suck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KplKeegan wrote:
Neither does the Manticore. Except for the Colossus, Barrage weapons ignore area terrain if the center lands into the terrain. I don't know where you're trying to go with this point...

You sure about that?
Page 58. Says you work out cover from the centre of the blast template. I.E. you get cover for area terrain.

Btw.. it's page 53 in the IG codex... and it ignore ALL cover. Anything wounded under the template from a Colossus must take an equipped invuln save or a 2+ armor save.. or die.

Right except he said everything EXCEPT the colossus grants that.