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ArbeitsSchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:And the second we post those images to the media, we get bombarded with yet more crap about "Americans are the real terrorists!" or "How DARE YOU disrespect our Islamic traditions!".

"Burial at sea" is the best idea in this situation. It prevents both desecration and veneration of the body. It's also convenient in the sense that it's a big "We can not only kill you, but we can make it so that you will never be found to be venerated by those who've followed your pathetic excuse of 'teachings'.' statement.

Calling them a "pathetic excuse of teachings" would probably be taken as a sign of disrespect for Islamic traditions as well.

And calling Osama a devout Muslim is the same sign of disrespect for Islam.

It's like saying the KKK are devout Christians.

Or it's like saying that Al'Qaeda has any interest, whatsoever, in being an organization that believes in 'freedom'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Phototoxin wrote:I thought he had 'doubles' like most of these guys?

A double wouldn't be a genetic match.

You mean along with one of the helicopters breaking down?

Unconfirmed reports from the people who lived near the compound are that the helicopter was damaged by gunfire during the insertion.

It had to make an emergency landing and was then scuttled.

dienekes96 wrote:Yeah, you couldn't fake a death picture!?! Sure...

I'm sure they planned the DNA and funeral as tightly as they did the operation.

If they were going to lie about it, wouldn't there be a more politically fortuitous moment than May Day?

They crashed and destroyed one of their own choppers. Tightly planned isn't the same as Tightly Executed.

Helicopters always break down. Always. That is one of the reasons JSOC exists. The aborted attempt in Iran 30 years ago. Somalia. That is hardly indicative of the level of detail in the plan.

I FIGURED IT OUT!


Osama and G.W. Bush were pals before he was elected president, and they helped each other get to power in their respective organizations, andn that Bush Sr. had to play along because he had help Reagan in the Iran-Contra affair, which partially helped to cover up that Bin Laden was one of the two shooters of JFK (he was on the grassy knoll-his aim was rather poor when he was younger, and his back-up man had to finish the job)! This lead to the republican party secretly supporting OBL and stealing a genetic sample of him so that when they make the perfect dummy, they can place a patch of fake DNA on the body of the guy who took the fall so that it seems to be him! I mean, the guy had 50 or so siblings, and he must've had a brother who looked SOMEWHAT like him!




All joking aside, that was a lot of fun to come up with. Sorry to be so sarcastic, but I'm actually gonna trust the government on this one.

dienekes96 wrote:Helicopters always break down. Always. That is one of the reasons JSOC exists. The aborted attempt in Iran 30 years ago. Somalia. That is hardly indicative of the level of detail in the plan.

Never said it was. I said Tightly planned is not Tightly Executed. Its a variation on "No plan survives contact with the enemy." Just because they "tightly planned" the DNA/Burial parts, doesn't mean they would go swimmingly. They may still have not succeeded in that part of the plan. Its only been a day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:And the second we post those images to the media, we get bombarded with yet more crap about "Americans are the real terrorists!" or "How DARE YOU disrespect our Islamic traditions!".

"Burial at sea" is the best idea in this situation. It prevents both desecration and veneration of the body. It's also convenient in the sense that it's a big "We can not only kill you, but we can make it so that you will never be found to be venerated by those who've followed your pathetic excuse of 'teachings'.' statement.

Calling them a "pathetic excuse of teachings" would probably be taken as a sign of disrespect for Islamic traditions as well.

And calling Osama a devout Muslim is the same sign of disrespect for Islam.

It's like saying the KKK are devout Christians.

Or it's like saying that Al'Qaeda has any interest, whatsoever, in being an organization that believes in 'freedom'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Phototoxin wrote:I thought he had 'doubles' like most of these guys?

A double wouldn't be a genetic match.

You mean along with one of the helicopters breaking down?

Unconfirmed reports from the people who lived near the compound are that the helicopter was damaged by gunfire during the insertion.

It had to make an emergency landing and was then scuttled.

Does it not rather depend on whether Osama thought himself a devout Muslim? Some people clearly think that. A shower of racists in bedsheets do appear to believe they are Christians as well. Also it depends what Al Quaeda define as "freedom". Its quite subjective.

I was not responding to you, as you made the same basic point I did. But I would also argue that the execution was also extraordinary. To lose NO operators. 40 minutes in time. Amazing.

I was merely pointing out that they supposedly used a quite a few different methods of I.D. to confirm it was him, including confirmation from some of his wives (and you KNOW they wouldn’t lie). No matter what is done, some people will say its fake-He had a body double, DNA was too quick, etc. I wonder how long before a picture is leaked. You know there photos of the body somewhere…

As an aside, here is a photo from the situation room as the operation was in progress;







I would rate that "Ass Sphincter Level: Critical"

I’m surprised that with the large compound he was in, there were only 3 other soldiers there to fight back. And it took 40 minutes for the entire assault by over 2 dozen Seals (not just any Seals either-Devgru) plus some CIA. That kind of implies to me that they were being rather careful and not just entering with the intent to kill everyone. Of course this may be based on faulty info.

Lets assume for a moment that he isnt dead.

All he has to do to utterly destroy the credibility of the US is to appear on camera with a copy of tomorrows newspaper and then post it plus a hair sample to AlJazeera.

Lets just see shall we (not holding my breath)

The other more likely conspiricy is that he is alive in US custody under interrogation. If this is the case he will never be seen or heard from again anyway.

Then there is the most likely scenario. He is dead. Shot in the head and that his body was dropped in the Ocean.

Edit.

That picture is remarkable.

Im looking at Obamas face and body language. That there is the weight of responsibility.

I agree that Pete is probably correct. If they had him alive they would probably make it very public and show lots of photos of him in a prison jump suit.

AgeOfEgos wrote:As an aside, here is a photo from the situation room as the operation was in progress;







I would rate that "Ass Sphincter Level: Critical"

I love how obama is the least powerful looking and also most simply dressed person in the room

pete wrote:Lets assume for a moment that he isnt dead.

All he has to do to utterly destroy the credibility of the US is to appear on camera with a copy of tomorrows newspaper and then post it plus a hair sample to AlJazeera.

Lets just see shall we (not holding my breath)

The other more likely conspiricy is that he is alive in US custody under interrogation. If this is the case he will never be seen or heard from again anyway.

Then there is the most likely scenario. He is dead. Shot in the head and that his body was dropped in the Ocean.

Edit.

That picture is remarkable.

Im looking at Obamas face and body language. That there is the weight of responsibility.

That or he probably has been dead for some time due to kidney failure but that's of no political use to anyone....

Makes sense to me. He's not a military leader, so while his presence is desired, he wouldn't want to get in the way of the military operations.

I love Clinton: "Holy s**t this isn't Dancing With The Stars!!!"

Well, in regards to clothing he appears rather civilian. However, I wager a guess he's wearing the most intense face in that room.


Think on this. At the White House Correspondence Dinner Seth Myers made a joke about Bin Laden hiding on C - Span and that's why nobody could find him. Here is Obama's reaction;




At this point----he had ordered the operation and was getting ready to launch. I bet he was really laughing on the outside while a stomach ulcer the size of my fist was forming on the inside.

I think we can all agree that the funnest part about all this will be watching fox news try and spin this against obama like they did on libya.

Trust me, that one star is there to make sure the video feed is working.

And you get to dress how you want and look how you want when you are the boss.

In that room, it was HIS derriere on the line if there was an issue. Good to see SecState there as well.

Crablezworth wrote:I think we can all agree that the funnest part about all this will be watching fox news try and spin this against obama like they did on libya.

The radio conservative talk shows muted some of their criticism of Obama today.

Let us see what tomorrow brings.

EDIT:

Hannity was actually in true praise of Obama.

My sentiments on the cospiracy are as what has already been stated, that all Osama has to do to completely undermine and really hurt the US is appear on a newspaper tomorrow and say 'I'm alive', regardless of how suspicious the Op seems, Obama can't come out and say that he killed Osama when it's not true.

One thing that has surprised me though is the kind of backlash out here. I mean, people are saying I'm celebrating them worrying about their families and loved ones, among other things....it may just be where I am, but it's surprising me quite a bit.
'

corpsesarefun wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:As an aside, here is a photo from the situation room as the operation was in progress;

I would rate that "Ass Sphincter Level: Critical"

I love how obama is the least powerful looking and also most simply dressed person in the room

"Dress Shirt? Tie? Screw that. Gak's going down, I'm rocking the polo shirt and windbreaker, and can't nobody tell me otherwise. Don't tell me about looking presidential. This could be my butt on the line if we feth this up."

@Graveyman

In all likelihood the assault was over in a matter of minutes.

The last 35 minutes were probably spent destroying hard drives, burning papers, snatching the downed crew and planting thermite on the bird.

dienekes96 wrote:Trust me, that one star is there to make sure the video feed is working.

And you get to dress how you want and look how you want when you are the boss.

In that room, it was HIS derriere on the line if there was an issue. Good to see SecState there as well.

The things which struck me about him in that photo are his relative youth and the intensity of his expression.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:And the second we post those images to the media, we get bombarded with yet more crap about "Americans are the real terrorists!" or "How DARE YOU disrespect our Islamic traditions!".

"Burial at sea" is the best idea in this situation. It prevents both desecration and veneration of the body. It's also convenient in the sense that it's a big "We can not only kill you, but we can make it so that you will never be found to be venerated by those who've followed your pathetic excuse of 'teachings'.' statement.

Calling them a "pathetic excuse of teachings" would probably be taken as a sign of disrespect for Islamic traditions as well.

And calling Osama a devout Muslim is the same sign of disrespect for Islam.

It's like saying the KKK are devout Christians.

Does it not rather depend on whether Osama thought himself a devout Muslim? Some people clearly think that. A shower of racists in bedsheets do appear to believe they are Christians as well.

Regardless of whether Osama sincerely believed, the actions he put into practice were betrayals and perversions of all the positive teachings of Islam. Much as the murders and terrorism committed by the KKK were perversions and betrayals of the peaceful teachings of Christianity.

Referring to the hateful philosophy and murderous ideas advanced by Bin Laden as a "pathetic excuse of teachings" is not a reflection on the millions of peaceful Muslims around the world. It is a judgment on the philosophy of hatred and evil which Osama himself supported and recruited others into.

ChrisWWII wrote:My sentiments on the cospiracy are as what has already been stated, that all Osama has to do to completely undermine and really hurt the US is appear on a newspaper tomorrow and say 'I'm alive', regardless of how suspicious the Op seems, Obama can't come out and say that he killed Osama when it's not true.

One thing that has surprised me though is the kind of backlash out here. I mean, people are saying I'm celebrating them worrying about their families and loved ones, among other things....it may just be where I am, but it's surprising me quite a bit.
'

The premise I'm putting forward is not that he is still alive, merely that he was dead beforehand.

What Obama is doing in the pic is exacty right.

He has taken the decision, now he gets out of the way and lets his team get on with it.

On a different level of conspiricy

The compound OBL was in was built in 2005 and was owned by a group from Waziristan.

Right next to the Pakistani equivalent of Sandhurst.

Surely the Pakistanis knew he was there. No internet, no phone line, all rubbish burned. They must have found that suspicious.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:
From a nation founded on such ideals as guerilla warfare and rebellion against a recognised state, its particularly ironic. Once upon a time the US wasn't "legitimate" either, until it became so through military action which earned it political recognition.

Sorry, when did the American Revolution send ships packed with explosives into the Thames? I must have dozed off during that part of my history courses.

You're equating what was, at best, armed rebellion against an occupying army with an international group who really only targeted civilians.

If the Revolution had, perhaps, snuck groups of people into Britain and ran around butchering the families of the British soldiers in the country you might have a point.

But they didn't and you don't.

Only targeted civilians? And the soldiers in Afghanistan just fall over dead of their own accord do they? Or are those responsible for terror attacks against western troops in Afghanistan not connected to "The Axis of Evil" and Al Quaeda any more? The impression given is certainly that Al Quaeda et al are one huge homogenous terrorist body with tendrils in every organisation, whether they be Afgan "freedom fighters" or Libyan Anti-Gaddafi rebels.

You're looking too much into the details of the example and not enough on the general point.. that once upon a time the USA was an un-recognised and illegitimate force engaged in combat of one form or another with the legitimate government of the area. The manner of that combat is not really relevant, simply the status of the combatants.

Once again, you show an astounding amount of ignorance with regards to the reasons why the American Revolution was fought, how it was executed, and the outcome of the conflict. Trying to link the American revolution with the war on terror is like comparing apples to tomatoes. There are similarities, like there are similarities between just about every conflict in history. So now you've made your point...what have you proven?

Crablezworth wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:My sentiments on the cospiracy are as what has already been stated, that all Osama has to do to completely undermine and really hurt the US is appear on a newspaper tomorrow and say 'I'm alive', regardless of how suspicious the Op seems, Obama can't come out and say that he killed Osama when it's not true.

One thing that has surprised me though is the kind of backlash out here. I mean, people are saying I'm celebrating them worrying about their families and loved ones, among other things....it may just be where I am, but it's surprising me quite a bit.
'

The premise I'm putting forward is not that he is still alive, merely that he was dead beforehand.

There is a good chance that this was the case, I mean, burying him at sea within 24 hours because it is a muslim tradition? I don't think so... Did they even ask other countries if they would bury him or just presume that?

Still, whether he is dead now or dead 9 years ago, it makes little difference in the long run. The world can revel in the deah of Bin Laden, enough said.

Commander Cain wrote:

Crablezworth wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:My sentiments on the cospiracy are as what has already been stated, that all Osama has to do to completely undermine and really hurt the US is appear on a newspaper tomorrow and say 'I'm alive', regardless of how suspicious the Op seems, Obama can't come out and say that he killed Osama when it's not true.

One thing that has surprised me though is the kind of backlash out here. I mean, people are saying I'm celebrating them worrying about their families and loved ones, among other things....it may just be where I am, but it's surprising me quite a bit.
'

The premise I'm putting forward is not that he is still alive, merely that he was dead beforehand.

There is a good chance that this was the case, I mean, burying him at sea within 24 hours because it is a muslim tradition? I don't think so... Did they even ask other countries if they would bury him or just presume that?

"Burying him at sea" isn't a Muslim tradition. The preparation of the body and the burial rites themselves were done "in accordance with Muslim tradition".

The whole point of burying him at sea is to make it so that three major things can not happen.
1)The erection of shrines and placing of offerings with the body.
2) This method ensures that there's nowhere for Al Qaeda to send members on 'pilgrimages' to. It also ensures that there's no way for Al Qaeda to be able to covertly use it as a meeting place or recruiting tool.
3) It ensures that the body cannot be desecrated.

@Commander Cain

It was the most prudent thing to do.

Now there can be no shrine of his body, the U.S. cannot be vilified for trampling burial rites, and in the unlikely event that the dead walk the earth, he will drown.

I agree with your second statement though.

Fair points! (well, besides a zombie Bin Laden coming back of course...)